Who says the barbarian should use a battle axe? [WEAPON]

[Proven_Paradox]

Not sure if this has been done before, but...

Orcish Maul

Basically, the orcish maul is a large hammer built for smashing heads and armor rather than pounding nails and stakes. Typically, an orcish maul has a thick, wooden haft, which may be reinforced with metal bands, topped with a large metal or stone hammer head. Masterwork mauls typically have designs or runes carved into the haft, reinforcing bands, and/or head.

Damage: 2d6
Critical: x3
Type: Bludgeoning
Weight: [edit]15[/edit] pounds
Cost: 20 gp
Special: When using power attack, if three or more points of attack bonus penalty are taken, treat your threat range with the maul as being five feet longer.

Proficiency: Exotic, except for orcs or half-orcs, which treat it as martial.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I think it should be a little heavier. Regular maul's are 20 lb.

[Proven_Paradox]

The most similar weapon in the PHB is the greatclub, which sucks weighs eight pounds. I don't see any "maul" weapon in there. I want this to be heavier, yes, but I don't think it should be more than double that.

[erewhon]

Maul is a one-handed exotic weapon from the Complete Warrior book. Does a d10, x3, and indeed, weighs a whopping 20 pounds. Seems stupid to me, but hey. :)

This orcish Maul is a nifty idea, but as written seems a bit light-weight and perhaps a tad underpowered. I mean, how is it appreciably better than a greatsword? If I have to burn an entire feat on it, I want it to be at least as nice as a spiked chain, fer cryin' out loud. :D

I'd recommend increasing the weight to be twice as heavy as a Greatclub(16 pounds), keep the bonus to breakin' stuff, and perhaps add one more "extra" to make it worth the feat. Given the size of the thing, perhaps it can get +5 feet of reach if used with 3 points of Power Attack, which encourages the "BIG HIT" aspect of the thing. If not that, then perhaps a bonus to overruns or bull rushes or both while wielding it. Heck, I could see adding both. :)

Exotic Weapons SHOULD be nice. The Spiked Chain is the level you should be shooting to match, in my opinion. :) Most of the published exotic weapons are weak, to be honest.

[Fizban]

So what you want is a bludgeoning greataxe? Then use a bludgeoning greataxe and call it a greathammer, wallah. Looking at the table, it should cost and weigh twice as much as a normal warhammer, so thats 24gp and 10lbs.

Greathammer
It's a really big hammer.
1d12 (or 2d6, it means little), x3, 10lbs, 24gp, martial proficiency.

You want an exotic hammer? Goliath Greathammer, Races of Stone. exotic, more critical oomph and extra sundery goodness.

Edit: and who the heck made the Greatclub anyway? wtf is that? A two handed martial club should be dealing 2d6 with a x2 crit and 10' throwing range, as a larger version of the club with more umph for being martial. The greatclub breaks all the normal weapon power rules, and still costs money (while being free is the best thing about the clubs).
Also, for more tangenty goodness: wtf is up with the Warmace in CW? wtf is that? It sucks, and it even gives you an AC penalty for more suckage. By my calculations, an exotic two-handed x2 weapon should deal something like 3d6 or more.

[unlit.candle]

I would recommend changing the weight as has been indicated. Change the Stats as follows:

Damage: 2d8
Critical: x3
Type: Bludgeoning
Weight: 25 pounds
Cost: 20 gp

Exotic proficiency required with out without Orc blood.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Then use a bludgeoning greataxe and call it a greathammer, wallah.

*wince* Please, use the correct spelling: "voila". Yes. With a "v". Which is skipped by people who can't pronounce the vw- sound at the beginning. But shoddy pronunciation is no excuse for shoddy spelling.

Any, back on topic, I agree that the orcish maul is a bit underpowered, and of the presented versions, I like unlit.candle's stats, perhaps with the Power Attack/reach thing erewhon mentioned.

[magic8BALL]

No. Exotic Profficentcy if you have orc blood or not. Half-Orc have nothing with the Orc Double axe, why should they get this. Just Take the Improved Weapon Familiarity feat, and gain proff' in both of them.

By saying "orc blood get this exotic weapon as a martial" your playing around with tried and true races as well. Leave the profficiencies simple.

[Proven_Paradox]

Thanks for the critiques so far. I guess I should have mentioned that I'm only working with the core books for now (PHB, DMG, and MM I). I'm working on that, and the Complete Series is the next step.

Anyway, I made this weapon to go with the re-done orc/half-orc race in the other thread I posted. I had in mind giving the re-done race this as a little extra, and I was using the Dwarven Waraxe as the comparison. Looking back, yeah, I see how this is still probably a little underpowered. The spiked chain makes me want to murder people as is, and I'd been thinking on writing a new version of that too. So yeah, I'm not trying to match the spiked chain, and any players who want to use one in my games will be looking at some sort of alteration (probably decreased damage dice).

That said, I was not expecting so many cries of "underpowered." First off, I've been in games where sundering and breaking stuff is a common thing, including enemy equipment. Tower shields get really annoying after the first few rounds of not doing any damage.

I'll up the weight, 15 lbs. I think. If the general consensus is that it's weaker than the Dwarven Waraxe, do you think making the damage 2d8 would be enough/too much?

[...]your playing around with tried and true races as well. Leave the profficiencies simple.

I'm playing with "tired and true" races, yes, but I think half-orcs suck as is. As you obviously know from having replied in my other thread, I'm re-arranging them.

[Fizban]

*wince* Please, use the correct spelling: "voila". Yes. With a "v". Which is skipped by people who can't pronounce the vw- sound at the beginning. But shoddy pronunciation is no excuse for shoddy spelling.

Any, back on topic, I agree that the orcish maul is a bit underpowered, and of the presented versions, I like unlit.candle's stats, perhaps with the Power Attack/reach thing erewhon mentioned.

I was going for the cheezy condecending voice, and it seems I hit the mark

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My two cents:

2d6 (or D12 if you perfer) Crit X3 : Sounds balanced so far

Orcish blood uses as martial rather than exotic: Also fair

Sundering bonuses: Ummm... not so sure on that.

If you want to give it something nice for being an exotic weapon, how about this:

This massive blunt weapon is specifically designed to knock people backwards through sheer force of strength. As a standard action, a proficent user may use it to knock an opponent back, similar to a bull rush. You make an attack roll as normal, and if you hit, you and your opponent make a contested strength check. You get a +4 on your str check due to the leverage of the club. If you succeed, you push your opponent back. For every extra 5 points by which you succeed, your opponent is knocked back a further 5 feet. If you fail the contested check, you are disarmed.

This makes it a handy crowd control weapon, and worthy of the exotic weapon title, but not too overpowerful since a lot of high strength or large creatures exist which will laugh at the ability. It's still handy against casters, though.

[erewhon]

My two cents:

2d6 (or D12 if you perfer) Crit X3 : Sounds balanced so far

Orcish blood uses as martial rather than exotic: Also fair

Sundering bonuses: Ummm... not so sure on that.

If you want to give it something nice for being an exotic weapon, how about this:

This massive blunt weapon is specifically designed to knock people backwards through sheer force of strength. As a standard action, a proficent user may use it to knock an opponent back, similar to a bull rush. You make an attack roll as normal, and if you hit, you and your opponent make a contested strength check. You get a +4 on your str check due to the leverage of the club. If you succeed, you push your opponent back. For every extra 5 points by which you succeed, your opponent is knocked back a further 5 feet. If you fail the contested check, you are disarmed.

This makes it a handy crowd control weapon, and worthy of the exotic weapon title, but not too overpowerful since a lot of high strength or large creatures exist which will laugh at the ability. It's still handy against casters, though.

Not too bad. Still a trifle weak for an Exotic two-hander, but it's a free Feat! Much less useful after a full attack reaches two attacks, sadly.

Addressing another question: Raising the damage to 2d8 is way too much, sadly. I have found no published weapons that break the 1d12/2d6 damage limit, and for a muscle powered melee weapon, that seems reasonable in my tiny head. :)

Why? Well, a size medium two hander starting at the 2d8/3d6 damage level gets you to a 4d6 weapon for the cost of one Feat (makes Monkey Grip look a LOT better, though) and with Powerful Build or a Large character race, 6d6 base damage. At first level!

Sadly, the Warmace, at least, allows Exotic weapons to reach that magic 1d12/2d6 limit with a ONE hander.

Toss in a level or three of Exotic Weapon Master, and why would anyone ever bother with a Greatsword? Monkey Grip and Two-hand Wield a Large Warmace (Huge if you got the proper race for it) and get 3d6 base damage plus 2x Str bonus damage. 4d6 if you've got Powerful Build, and unless I mis-remember, you can use Flurry with it! (!!)

So, to properly "balance out" Exotic two-handers, you have to give them something besides more damage. The Long Axe is the classic for this, doing a d12 damage and giving you +5 feet of reach (at your choice) IF you have used at least three points of Power Attack. Thus, it can be a close-in or reach weapon at your choice, with stacking abilities.

By that measure, the Orcish Maul is quite underpowered compared to the Long Axe. The Long Axe is equal in damage, and for 3BAB (which also gives +6 damage at a minimum) you can get a reach of ten feet, no matter your level.

And let's not discuss the OTHER good exotic two-hander, the mighty Spiked Chain. :) That thing makes the Long Axe look underpowered! :)

[Proven_Paradox]

Okay, so we've never seen a published weapon above 2d6 damage. My first reaction is to wonder why that means that it should never happen in homebrew. Forgetting the fact that there is no precident, I ask you: Is 2d8 damage unbalanced for a two-handed exotic weapon with x3 criticals and only one damage type? The average damage increases from 7 with a 2d6 greatsword to 9 with a 2d8 orcish maul. That seems worthwhile to me, especially since you have to spend a feat or be a certain race to get it.

Balance with two handed weapons is going to fail any time we start looking at non-standard races, especially when we start getting into large+ sized races. I don't have plans for allowing my players to be non-standard races for that very reason, beyond homebrew or in some cases LA 0 races. Unless I'm missing a race in one of the books I don't own, that eliminates all of the big races.

The warmace you describe is not one I'm familiar with, and from what you describe makes almost as angry as the spiked chain.

If I am convinced that increasing the damage is truely as game-breaking as Erewhon seems to be implying, I would be most likely to give it something similar to the previously mentioned longaxe. I don't really think of this thing as something for crowd control, and I personally would rather have reach than be able to knock people back with this.

[Yeril]

The nearest thing to this ive seen is the Goliath Battle hammer

1d12, x4 critical, exotic weapon, gives +4 to sunder attempts

I think, I cant remember the exact stats, Ill get them now.

edit; Goliath Greathammer from the Monster Manual 4,

exotic weapon, 1d12 damage, two handed, x4 critical, costs 30gp and wieghs 30lbs and gives +2 on sunder attempts

[Roderick_BR]

The official maul, as was said, is practically a bludgeoning dwarven waraxe.
A two-handed 2d6 bludgeoning weapon can be found in Races of Stone, as the Goliath Greathammer (2d6 for medium creatures, critical x4, +2 to sunder attempts), and is a exotic weapon.

But it's true. I noticed that almost all bludgeoning weapons are nerfed when compared to their cutting/slashing counterparts. Just check. (warhammer being among the few notable exceptions).

[Caewil]

The fullblade does 2d8. I can't remember what book it was in, but it was basically a 2d8 greatsword. Good for all those FF cloud imitators.

[NakedCelt]

*wince* Please, use the correct spelling: "voila". Yes. With a "v". Which is skipped by people who can't pronounce the vw- sound at the beginning. But shoddy pronunciation is no excuse for shoddy spelling.

Tut, tut, my friend! No true pedant thou. The correct spelling is voilà, complete with little slanty thing over the A.

[Hazkali]

Greathammer
It's a really big hammer.
1d12 (or 2d6, it means little), x3, 10lbs, 24gp, martial proficiency.

(Emphasis Added)

Err...no. 2d6 is better than a d12 for many counts. Firstly, the lowest damage a 2d6 can do is 2, as opposed to a d12's 1. Secondly, the expected value (the average value you expect) of the d12 is 6.5, whereas the expected value of 2d6 is 7. Thirdly, and in my opinion, most importantly, the 2d6 forms a crude bell-curve of probabilities centred around its expected value, as opposed to the d12 where all values are equally likely outcomes. In effect, the 2d6 is more "reliable" in that you will most often be rolling 7, and rarely rolling 2 or 12. Whether this is an advantage or not is debatable, though.

[Proven_Paradox]

Intersting how this months old thread got a bump and is now more active than when I first posted it.

Anyway, my players seem to agree that the extra reach for power attack makes it a worthwhile weapon. It was intended to make orcs in my homebrew world worth playing, and it seems to have done the trick. The orc barbarian in my online game is a massive damage dealer when he can manage to roll above a 3.

[gotelc]

Really a maul can weigh as little as 6 pounds. Personally i don't like to use any heaver than 8(yes i have used one, we sell them at the hardware store i work at we use them to break pallets) But they can get up to 12 to 14 pounds possibly heavier we don't sell any over that amount. For Orcs in DND I would say they would want a really heavy one so 14-18 pounds is plausible. They are definitely exotic and I don't care what the CW says Mauls are two-handed. I would change it to this

Orcish Maul
Exotic two-handed melee weapon
cost 20 gp
DMG 2d6(small) 2d8(Med) X3 (crit) Bludgeoning

Special: Str. of 16 to wield, -2 to attacks (very awkward weapon) Orcish Mauls ignore one point of hardness when used to sunder or smash an object. Masterwork Orcish Mauls ignore two points of hardness.

[CasESenSITItiVE]

No. Exotic Profficentcy if you have orc blood or not. Half-Orc have nothing with the Orc Double axe, why should they get this. Just Take the Improved Weapon Familiarity feat, and gain proff' in both of them.

By saying "orc blood get this exotic weapon as a martial" your playing around with tried and true races as well. Leave the profficiencies simple.

there are dwarven weapons that are exotic to all but them, why shouldn't there be an orc equivilent?

[Amphimir Míriel]

Orcish Maul
Exotic two-handed melee weapon
cost 20 gp
DMG 2d6(small) 2d8(Med) X3 (crit) Bludgeoning

Special: Str. of 16 to wield, -2 to attacks (very awkward weapon) Orcish Mauls ignore one point of hardness when used to sunder or smash an object. Masterwork Orcish Mauls ignore two points of hardness.

(Emphasis mine)

This would really kill it for me... I think the STR 16 restriction is ok, though

I would also rather have the free bull rush, or the optional +5 reach instead of the bonus to sundering.

[Proven_Paradox]

The -2 to attacks would suck. That's 4 damage Power Attack isn't gong to be able to provide. No way I'd even consider something like that.

[Fizban]

(Emphasis Added)

Err...no. 2d6 is better than a d12 for many counts. Firstly, the lowest damage a 2d6 can do is 2, as opposed to a d12's 1. Secondly, the expected value (the average value you expect) of the d12 is 6.5, whereas the expected value of 2d6 is 7. Thirdly, and in my opinion, most importantly, the 2d6 forms a crude bell-curve of probabilities centred around its expected value, as opposed to the d12 where all values are equally likely outcomes. In effect, the 2d6 is more "reliable" in that you will most often be rolling 7, and rarely rolling 2 or 12. Whether this is an advantage or not is debatable, though.

All true, but WoTC doesn't seem to care most of the time, which is what I actually meant and should have said. Either can be used if you want: if you go with the bludgeoning greataxe version then it's 1d12, if you go with the suped up warhammer version it's 2d6 (since following the table 1d8 upgrades to 2d6 by default). It's probably better to go with the d12 though, for consistency between hammers and axes. The idea seems to be that swords always get the reliable (and statistically better) dice pairs and 19-20 crit ranges too.

[gotelc]

The -2 to attacks would suck. That's 4 damage Power Attack isn't gong to be able to provide. No way I'd even consider something like that.

why would it effect power attacks? The negatives for power attack are separate as far as i know. Power attack says the negatives you take for power attack can not exceed your base attack. Other penalties should not effect this.

I chose a -2 to attacks because i though you would like that better than
Special: Slow but powerful: you lose your attack at the lowest bonus but gain your STR in damage a second time. ( this would mean you add STR and a half for a two handed weapon and then STR again. EX: 4+2+4.)

[Proven_Paradox]

Let me re-word that a bit...

I would MUCH rather constantly take a -2 to attack rolls from power attack with a greatsword/axe than have slightly better damage dice for the same price.

[Durin_Deathless]

Really a maul can weigh as little as 6 pounds. Personally i don't like to use any heaver than 8(yes i have used one, we sell them at the hardware store i work at we use them to break pallets) But they can get up to 12 to 14 pounds possibly heavier we don't sell any over that amount. For Orcs in DND I would say they would want a really heavy one so 14-18 pounds is plausible. They are definitely exotic and I don't care what the CW says Mauls are two-handed. I would change it to this

Orcish Maul
Exotic two-handed melee weapon
cost 20 gp
DMG 2d6(small) 2d8(Med) X3 (crit) Bludgeoning

Special: Str. of 16 to wield, -2 to attacks (very awkward weapon) Orcish Mauls ignore one point of hardness when used to sunder or smash an object. Masterwork Orcish Mauls ignore two points of hardness.

Hate to break it to you but i have personally seen a 75 year old man (my grandpa actually) use a 15 pound sledge in one hand. I account this to "freaky old man strength" but i do have witnesses.

[Fax Celestis]

I'd recommend going 2d6, 19-20/x3. It's lighter than the other hammers everyone else is mentioning, and is therefore a bit more finessable. Also, it makes taking EWP actually appealing.

[gotelc]

Hate to break it to you but i have personally seen a 75 year old man (my grandpa actually) use a 15 pound sledge in one hand. I account this to "freaky old man strength" but i do have witnesses.

OK well i did not mean it was not possible but the one in the CW weighs 20 pounds (which i found out we have at my store) i just don't think fighting with it effectively in one hand is quite

[Amphimir Míriel]

OK well i did not mean it was not possible but the one in the CW weighs 20 pounds (which i found out we have at my store) i just don't think fighting with it effectively in one hand is quite

Well, the real question is: Can the hero use it in one hand (while mounted and using a shield, no less) to lay waste to a dozen opponents and finally, after an epic struggle, cave in the big bad's breastplate, killing him and breaking off all the rubies from his black armor?

(cookie to the one who gets the reference)