need help with tier 1 mundane class

[Somensjev]

i'm trying to make a tier 1 (or maybe 2) fully mundane class, so far i'm thinking about giving them a bonus feat every level (only just better than a fighter)

each time they acquire a new feat they choose two feats they meet the prerequisites for, then choose which of the two applies to them

each morning they spend (random number of time) preparing their feats (just like a wizard prepares spells)

so if it's a level 20 human (this class (haven't thought of a name yet)) they'll have two (human bonus feats (only one applies at a time)) 40 (from class levels(20 can apply at once)) and 14 (normal feats (only 7 apply at a time)

i'm also thinking maneuvers and stances? but dont know what to do with that

any other ideas are welcome, thanks in advanced for any contributions

[eggynack]

That's tier three. I think it's been vaguely proved at some point that you only hit tier three with effectively infinite feats (effectively basically meaning that you can only get one instance of toughness, for example). If you want this mundane class to be tier one, they've gotta be able to break the game in some manner. Perhaps his sword is so sharp that it can cut through anything, whether it be an enemy's armor, an anti-magic field, or the very fabric of reality. Maybe he has a pile of gadgets that emulate spells, like a mundane artificer. He has some web shooters, and a bucket of grease, and maybe he has a machine that draws so effectively that the images appear to be real. He has to be as powerful as a wizard, in other words, and your feat monger is not that.

[Eldan]

Feats alone don't take you over level 3. Remember, the definition of even tier 2 means that you break the game over your knees and make it cry for its mother. Feats don't do that.

For tier 1, your character has to be able to, quite simply, do everything in the game.

Think of an ability, there should be some way to get it, or something funcitionally almost identical. So, as long as there's no feats that allow you to call creatures for help, move across thousands of miles in seconds, move to other worlds, call whatever equipment you need out of thin air or turn into any monster you can think of, feats won't take you there.

[gooddragon1]

I can think of one ability that might get you close: A "perfect" shapechange. As in you gain ALL abilities of the form as long as it's not a specific individual. With the Ex, Su, and SLA stuff out there I'd say there has to be something in any given monster manual to deal with a situation.

EDIT: Yep, actually some monsters get to cast too. You'd have everything you need.

[Somensjev]

That's tier three. I think it's been vaguely proved at some point that you only hit tier three with effectively infinite feats (effectively basically meaning that you can only get one instance of toughness, for example). If you want this mundane class to be tier one, they've gotta be able to break the game in some manner. Perhaps his sword is so sharp that it can cut through anything, whether it be an enemy's armor, an anti-magic field, or the very fabric of reality. Maybe he has a pile of gadgets that emulate spells, like a mundane artificer. He has some web shooters, and a bucket of grease, and maybe he has a machine that draws so effectively that the images appear to be real. He has to be as powerful as a wizard, in other words, and your feat monger is not that.

yeah, i realised this, hence why i asked for help
and your sword bit made me think of death from discworld, maybe they could sharpen their weapons with silk, spider webs, and light, make it more and more powerful, or something

Feats alone don't take you over level 3. Remember, the definition of even tier 2 means that you break the game over your knees and make it cry for its mother. Feats don't do that.

For tier 1, your character has to be able to, quite simply, do everything in the game.

Think of an ability, there should be some way to get it, or something funcitionally almost identical. So, as long as there's no feats that allow you to call creatures for help, move across thousands of miles in seconds, move to other worlds, call whatever equipment you need out of thin air or turn into any monster you can think of, feats won't take you there.

well, i am open to homebrew suggestions, like extraordinary abilities that might be awesome or something, i dunno

I can think of one ability that might get you close: A "perfect" shapechange. As in you gain ALL abilities of the form as long as it's not a specific individual. With the Ex, Su, and SLA stuff out there I'd say there has to be something in any given monster manual to deal with a situation.

EDIT: Yep, actually some monsters get to cast too. You'd have everything you need.

sounds fun, but doesnt exactly sound "mundane"

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I made a class like this some time ago. I got a fighter chassis -the HD size, BAB and saves but no abilities- and got the sorceror's spell slot progression by level, with bonus slots based off constitution. I renamed the spell slots into feat slots and I gave the new class the ability to prepare stronger and stronger feats as they went up in level.

1st level slots could fit fighter feats.
2nd level slots could fit any combat feats.
3rd level slots could also fit general feats.
4th level slots could fit any type of feats without restrictions.
5th level slots could fit epic fighter feats.
6th level slots could fit epic combat feats.
7th level slots could fit epic general feats.
8th level slots could fit any type of epic feats.
9th level slots could fit restricted or class-specific epic feats.
All slots can be filled with feats from lower levels.
At higher class levels he could partially rearrange his feats mid-combat


This guy needed more HP? he could fill his 7th, 8th and 9th level slots with Epic Fast Healing and recover 70 HP per round or Epic Toughness and gain 700 bonus HP.
This guy needed better attacks? Epic prowess on 5th and 6th level slots for +20 to attack.
This guy needed Spell Resistance? Awaken Spell Resistance on his 4th level slots alone would give him a SR of 40 or so.
And so on and so forth. He could even get maneuvers because there's a feat that grants maneuvers.

[Somensjev]

I made a class like this some time ago. I got a fighter chassis -the HD size, BAB and saves but no abilities- and got the sorceror's spell slot progression by level, with bonus slots based off constitution. I renamed the spell slots into feat slots and I gave the new class the ability to prepare stronger and stronger feats as they went up in level.

1st level slots could fit fighter feats.
2nd level slots could fit any combat feats.
3rd level slots could also fit general feats.
4th level slots could fit any type of feats without restrictions.
5th level slots could fit epic fighter feats.
6th level slots could fit epic combat feats.
7th level slots could fit epic general feats.
8th level slots could fit any type of epic feats.
9th level slots could fit restricted or class-specific epic feats.
All slots can be filled with feats from lower levels.
At higher class levels he could partially rearrange his feats mid-combat


This guy needed more HP? he could fill his 7th, 8th and 9th level slots with Epic Fast Healing and recover 70 HP per round or Epic Toughness and gain 700 bonus HP.
This guy needed better attacks? Epic prowess on 5th and 6th level slots for +20 to attack.
This guy needed Spell Resistance? Awaken Spell Resistance on his 4th level slots alone would give him a SR of 40 or so.
And so on and so forth. He could even get maneuvers because there's a feat that grants maneuvers.

that's the kind of thing i wanted, but i thought maybe he could rearrange all his feats (he still has to meet all prerequisites) as a full round action, or something

[JoshuaZ]

The problem is that no matter how much you give them, there are some things which one needs to be able to do in order to be T2 or T1 that are extremely hard to fluff as being mundane. Flying, teleportation, plane shifting, are all examples. Flight can be maybe replaced with jumping really far (sort of Samurai Jack style?). Something like what you want to do would be broken in combat but still wouldn't be able to do many of the things that a genuine T1 can do.

[Eldan]

I don't think staying "mundane" will ever take you above tier 3. Depending on how you define mundane.

To get to tier 1, make a list of everything that is possible in the game. Then find a way for your class to do all of them.

How do you planeshift mundanely? Fly? Teleport? Summon? Battlefield control? Mind control? Invisibility? Shapechange? Divination?

You need to be able to do all of these.

[zlefin]

agreed. and things that get you to tier 2 are going to start stretching the definition of "mundane", or involve silly large numbers; let alone tier 1.
Another factor is that people interpret the tier list differently; some emphasize the versatility part, and deemphasize being so good at one thing that you don't get outclassed in it.

also, what do you need this class for? a generic thought exercise? some specific game?
If you have a specific intent, and can define what you consider mundane and not mundane, then people can easily make one up that's rather high powered, though it may not reach tier 1 or 2, but can be very high tier 3 at least.

[Yitzi]

Fix the fighter, or pick the martial (not just melee; it needs good ranged capability too, enough that it can fight a flying wizard in a straight-out fight and have it be a toss-up) class of your choice.
Fix the rogue, so that it can actually do ridiculous things with its skills.
Design a class that can do things like instant travel (even across planes), counter magic, bypass various barriers, etc. How you'd do that and stay mundane, I have no idea.
Now gestalt them, or at least make a class that can switch between their abilities without a rebuild or paying expenses each time it switches.

The result is probably tier 1.

[JoshuaZ]

One issue also is what counts as "mundane." Is jumping 10 feet straight up mundane? 20 feet? 100 feet? Is the sort of disguises Sherlock Holmes does in the recent movie versions mundane? Is being so sneaky that you can hide at just the right angles, taking advantage of things like the natural human blind spot mundane? What about resisting magic by sheer force of will and strength of body? What about traveling to a different plane by punching the planar barrier really hard? What about causing earthquakes by punching the ground?

It is possible to fluff some of these things as mundane if you have a broad range of what counts as mundane. The problem is that most people don't see that really as mundane. By mundane they often mean something closer to Die Hard than to Superman.

[Zelkon]

It's easy if you want to get to tier 2. Tier 1 is hard because it mandates planer travel and teleportation. However, a mundane will be able to do most else if you accept the fact that no one in our world has gotten past level six.
Give him a good climb, jump, and swim speed, and what ever other speeds you can think up. Allow them to throw their weapon at extraordinary angle and great distances, and allow this attack to take down flying creatures. Allow them to dispel or redirect magic, and allow a huge bonus to all saves. Allow them to take on an aspect of a creature by studying them. Allow them SoD. Allow them to attack a group of enemies at once, earthier through a volley of arrows or by dashing through a group of enemies. Allow them to apply status conditions on a hit. Give them good skills. Allow them to break the action economy. Allow them to craft magic items without meeting spell prerequisites. Now, the only thing you're missing is quick transport, which is story breaking anyway.

[JoshuaZ]

It's easy if you want to get to tier 2. Tier 1 is hard because it mandates planer travel and teleportation.

I don't think this makes sense. The major distinction between T1 and T2 is that a T2 needs to generally construct their build around whatever thing the T1 can do with a little preparation. If there's no way for the class to do planar travel, it is at best at the very low end of T2.

However, a mundane will be able to do most else if you accept the fact that no one in our world has gotten past level six.
Give him a good climb, jump, and swim speed, and what ever other speeds you can think up. Allow them to throw their weapon at extraordinary angle and great distances, and allow this attack to take down flying creatures. Allow them to dispel or redirect magic, and allow a huge bonus to all saves. Allow them to take on an aspect of a creature by studying them. Allow them SoD. Allow them to attack a group of enemies at once, earthier through a volley of arrows or by dashing through a group of enemies. Allow them to apply status conditions on a hit. Give them good skills. Allow them to break the action economy. Allow them to craft magic items without meeting spell prerequisites. Now, the only thing you're missing is quick transport, which is story breaking anyway.

How would you fluff crafting magic items without spells as mundane? Some things can be fluffed as mundane more easily than others. In the setting I'm currently DMing a +1 weapon is more often than not just extremely well-crafted, and the Keen enhancement as as well as a few other weapons enhancements also fall into that category. But it is hard to see how one would keep as mundane say a crafting a scrying device or a potion.

[Zelkon]

I don't think this makes sense. The major distinction between T1 and T2 is that a T2 needs to generally construct their build around whatever thing the T1 can do with a little preparation. If there's no way for the class to do planar travel, it is at best at the very low end of T2.

Well, think of a sorcerer who doesn't select teleport or plane shift. Basically, it should be on that level, which is, yes, low tier two. That's the best I can do for straight mundane.
Perhaps, a mundane tier two should be able to hitch a ride for free on all magical effects, from buffs to teleportation.

How would you fluff crafting magic items without spells as mundane? Some things can be fluffed as mundane more easily than others. In the setting I'm currently DMing a +1 weapon is more often than not just extremely well-crafted, and the Keen enhancement as as well as a few other weapons enhancements also fall into that category. But it is hard to see how one would keep as mundane say a crafting a scrying device or a potion.

I was only thinking crafting magic weapons and armor, sorry. Anyway, I was thinking that he would just make weapons so good, that they register to the universe as magical.

[Perseus]

At level 5+ have the class grant stuff of legends.

Her stomp causes earthquakes.

His sword can cut a tsunami in half.

His jumps transcend physics (crouching tiger).

Her sword can cut so swiftly that it cuts the very fabric of time and space causing rifts (planeshift).

Or you know... Beef up Time of Battle from tier 3 to tier 2.

[Draken]

Your best bet for a mundane Tier 1 class is probably something along the lines of World of Warcraft RPG's Tinker and the accompanying technology system.

Namely, your character, is actually pretty frail (rogue-ish chassis in my example), but he has access to a game system that enables basically anything to be done. Magic or technology.

If you want a tier 1 character who does these things mundanely himself, then you are hit with a conundrum. Your definition of mundane will need to be under review then, if it enables extraordinaire things, then you can make do with Xefas' Teramach or my Evolutionist, for these purposes. I get the feeling that neither does what you want thematically, however.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's easy if you want to get to tier 2. Tier 1 is hard because it mandates planer travel and teleportation.

Agree with the sentiment, disagree with the reason. It's hard to get T2 (heck, it's hard to get T3) without flat-out ignoring the laws of physics. But getting from T2 to T1 takes a monumental amount of homebrew effort in order to write enough different abilities.

As for a T2 mundane... well, if you take my Legend class, and strip away all the limits I put on the Deeds to prevent T2-level abuses, you're pretty close. High-level abilities let you leap for miles, destroy massive objects, shrug off magic, cut your way through planar boundaries, dispel magic by hitting it with your sword, shoot targets miles away, and so on. You could easily add in anything you felt was missing through new deeds.

[Eldan]

Well, think of a sorcerer who doesn't select teleport or plane shift. Basically, it should be on that level, which is, yes, low tier two. That's the best I can do for straight mundane.
Perhaps, a mundane tier two should be able to hitch a ride for free on all magical effects, from buffs to teleportation.

What makes the Sorcerer tier 2 is that he could have any of the tricks tier 1 has, but not all of them at once. So, he could take teleportation, or he could not, and the decision is more or less final once made.

If you don't have the option of learning some of tier 1's tricks, you are not tier 2.

[jojolagger]

I made a class like this some time ago. I got a fighter chassis -the HD size, BAB and saves but no abilities- and got the sorceror's spell slot progression by level, with bonus slots based off constitution. I renamed the spell slots into feat slots and I gave the new class the ability to prepare stronger and stronger feats as they went up in level.

1st level slots could fit fighter feats.
2nd level slots could fit any combat feats.
3rd level slots could also fit general feats.
4th level slots could fit any type of feats without restrictions.
5th level slots could fit epic fighter feats.
6th level slots could fit epic combat feats.
7th level slots could fit epic general feats.
8th level slots could fit any type of epic feats.
9th level slots could fit restricted or class-specific epic feats.
All slots can be filled with feats from lower levels.
At higher class levels he could partially rearrange his feats mid-combat


This guy needed more HP? he could fill his 7th, 8th and 9th level slots with Epic Fast Healing and recover 70 HP per round or Epic Toughness and gain 700 bonus HP.
This guy needed better attacks? Epic prowess on 5th and 6th level slots for +20 to attack.
This guy needed Spell Resistance? Awaken Spell Resistance on his 4th level slots alone would give him a SR of 40 or so.
And so on and so forth. He could even get maneuvers because there's a feat that grants maneuvers.

This is actually a really, really good example of how to do this. It does start to lag behind a little at the really high levels, but it does generally have meta play similar to a wizard. If you have only core and don't know what you're doing, it can be strong, but it's easy to mess up. If you have access to everything and know what you're doing, you can do pretty much anything you want. Because I'm fairly willing to bet planeshift is available via feat, or something somewhat similar. Flight can easily be done via feats. I know there is a ritual that gives ex shadow based teleportation somewhere, iirc.

[Zelkon]

What makes the Sorcerer tier 2 is that he could have any of the tricks tier 1 has, but not all of them at once. So, he could take teleportation, or he could not, and the decision is more or less final once made.

If you don't have the option of learning some of tier 1's tricks, you are not tier 2.

Another definition is being able to break the game in various ways, just not as many as a tier one. Which my chasis does. A sorcerer does not drop to tier three because he does not pick teleport, and while not having teleport as an option would be...less than optimal, it would still remain a tier two in the sense that it will outshine every tier three and will consistently break the game.

[Zaydos]

I'm assuming the level 4 slots get you around prerequisites too (since you're taking Awakened Spell Resistance which normally requires a dragon), which actually means you get teleport 1/day as soon as you gain those if you want it (Fiendish Legacy feat) or if you still need level prerequisites until you get to the epic ones at 9th level.

Though it also seems that you exaggerated your numbers a fair bit (as your examples require 10 to 21 slots of each level).

[toapat]

Another definition is being able to break the game in various ways, just not as many as a tier one. Which my chasis does. A sorcerer does not drop to tier three because he does not pick teleport, and while not having teleport as an option would be...less than optimal, it would still remain a tier two in the sense that it will outshine every tier three and will consistently break the game.

a Sorcerer can drop all the way to Tier 6, or rise upto Tier 1, depending on their spell choices. To paraphrase Tippy, a Sorcerer can suck harder then a fighter ever could hope to.

basically, this is a moreso standard interpretation:

Tier 1: from mid op upwards the game is able to be made irrelevant to all but the most specialized of scenarios, such as a Tarrasque vs lvl 4 wizard

Tier 2: Mid Op may have something to break the game entirely, and theoretically participate in any challenge

Tier 3: Can participate in multiple challenges, may have one exceptional point

Tier 4: Has one exceptional function, may have a few additional challenges they can participate in additionally

Tier 5: May have one good function, is likely incapable outside of it

Tier 6: is incapable in any function outside of high optimization. Also commoner because we cant really tell how to measure commoner optimization.

[Perseus]

Read 8 bit theater.... Pay attention to Redmage...

Give a mundane the ability to re-write their character sheet at-will. Maybe as an immediate action then later a free action.

Oh no the wizard cast a save or die will save? Rearrange my stats to dump str, Dex, int, cha... And boost wisdom. Hell while at it give myself mettle and a good will save.

........
.....
...
..
.

Along with other things of course.

[Urpriest]

I say this in most threads on this topic: a Fighter with a Flaming Sword is still a mundane class. In general, all of the greatest mundane heroes from fiction used magic items heavily. A Tier 1 mundane class already exists: that's what the Artificer is.

[Xefas]

A tier 1 character can solve any situation, given time to prepare.

And you can do that with only the strength of your arm! You only need a Strength score of about 3.2x10^67 to be able to release enough energy in a punch to create an event similar to the Big Bang, if my math is right. At high levels, with a few feats, you can be doing that a half dozen times per round or more.

And, if you can't use that to solve your problems, you got problems man.

[Network]

Design a class that can do things like instant travel (even across planes), counter magic, bypass various barriers, etc. How you'd do that and stay mundane, I have no idea.
Now gestalt them, or at least make a class that can switch between their abilities without a rebuild or paying expenses each time it switches.

The result is probably tier 1.

No it isn't. It's a monk.

[Jormengand]

I had an idea for a class who used special abilities based on which weapons and such he had. For example, he could throw small fireballs with a Fire Poi, make earthquakes with Lucerne Hammers and do a Legolas-style shield surf on a light steel shield. While this is hardly going to make you T1, a similar thing could be done which did something of that order.

[Amechra]

Planeshifting is actually kinda easy to get a mundane fluff.

You just need to find a portal! Who cares if the portal technically wasn't there before you went searching?

And the power of teleportation is less "it gets you places immediately" and more "you don't have to deal with the stuff between here and your target."

You could simulate that with a string of abilities like, I don't know (I'm going to use feats; put 'em in as class features or whatever)...

Tireless Runner [General]
You could run forever if you felt like it.
Prerequisites: Run
Benefit: You no longer have a limit on how long you can run, and may run through Difficult Terrain without reducing your movement speed.

Then make it so you can lose someone tracking you with ease, be 'lucky' enough to get through traps and locked doors (free action Open Lock and Disable Device checks? Don't mind if I do!)

I'd do it with mounts, though; the idea of hopping onto a horse and getting it to run fast enough that you get wherever you need to be in just the nick of time is great. Instantaneous teleportation kind of removes tension, anyway.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A tier 1 character can solve any situation, given time to prepare.

A common misconception not supported by facts. A tier 1 character can solve any situation if a) their player knows that situation exactly, b) the entire resources of the class are put into resolving the situation, and c) the theoretical player gets to cherry-pick the solution out of thousands of options for that class, when that class only has about 50-60 options.


Tell you what. Do the following;

1) Build a wizard using non campaign-specific material.
2) Have him memorize spells.
3) Have him pull off his daily preparations.

After you do that, see how many situations you can think of that he can't deal with, assuming 4-5 encounters paced every 4-5 hours. Do note that the optimization level of the challenges should match the optimization level of the wizard.