Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

[Coidzor]

Problem is the zombies and skeletons created this way have no hit dice, so they are already destroyed. The corpses have to obey the hit dice cap of the thing being polymorphed.

So Vegan Necromancy is either a rules dysfunction in and of itself or just a lot of rules fail/houserules then, eh?

Ah well.

This stuff about Binders and Zyceryll register on the radar at all?

[Big Fau]

The Warblade's recovery mechanic is worded such that, if you cannot use the attack option, you cannot do anything else that entire round. This precludes the use of immediate actions (which you could use if you attacked), AoOs, or even free actions (like speaking).

[Talderas]

Problem is the zombies and skeletons created this way have no hit dice, so they are already destroyed. The corpses have to obey the hit dice cap of the thing being polymorphed.

Objects do not have no hit dice. They don't have hit dice. This is the functional difference between 0 and null. Objects have null hit dice and instead just have hit points.

So the question, asked by PaO, is "Does the pebble have as many or more hit dice than a human?" The answer to this question should be true in order to satisfy the polymorph requirements and permit the polymorph to occur. When we compare 1HD against null HD the answer is unknown but also not false. However the text of PaO also clearly states that polymorphing a pebble into a human is a valid outcome. In general an unknown comparison should result in a failure to pass the criteria yet the description of PaO forces an unknown result to pass. So if a pebble can be turned into a human why can it not be turned into to a six-headed hydra or any other monster that has 15 or fewer HD? All of those options achieve the same unknown result that a pebble turning into a human achieves.

Edit: Regardless, I had overlooked one of the major functions of polymorph that the subject reverts to its original form when killed so it's rather useless for creating corpses.

[Karnith]

Most of the examples given as part of PaO don't work if you're following the actual rules of how it works (i.e. "as Polymorph, but..." and disregarding the examples). The sheep to wool coat change works (one object to another), as does the manticore to shrew change (because it's just Baleful Polymorph).

Human to marionette sort of works, in that it turns someone into an inert little puppet, though there are issues involved.

Shrew to manticore and lizard to manticore both run afoul of the HD restrictions inherited from Polymorph, and pebble to human and marionette to humans both get into the issue of trying to turn an object into a creature, as already discussed.

So you either try to follow the rules of the spell, and end up being unable to use PaO in the manner that the devs intended (i.e. according to their examples), or you try to reverse-engineer how it's supposed to work based on their examples, in which case you basically end up writing your own spell.

[bekeleven]

As for the changing scores for an elf, yeah you just have to eat the penalty. MoMF is weird.

I ended up explicitly ruling that you turn into an elf with physical stats of 10/12/8 and assumed to otherwise be statted with a single HD in humanoid.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I ended up explicitly ruling that you turn into an elf with physical stats of 10/12/8 and assumed to otherwise be statted with a single HD in humanoid.

The example elf in the monster manual has 13, 13, 10 for physical stats. That seemed like a logical place to look for stats.

[bekeleven]

The example elf in the monster manual has 13, 13, 10 for physical stats. That seemed like a logical place to look for stats.

You turn into a creature with average scores for its race. The statblock in the monster manual was given the elite array, which is the opposite of average.

(the "average creature" clause is not explicitly part of wild shape since errrata, I admit. But neither is the ability to turn into creatures with class levels. Hence, dysfunction.)

[Karnith]

You turn into a creature with average scores for its race. The statblock in the monster manual was given the elite array, which is the opposite of average.

The Elf stat block uses the nonelite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), actually, as is the case with most Humanoid Warriors given stats in the Monster Manual.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually any creature with class levels in the MM uses the Elite array (13 12 11 10 9 8).

[Karnith]

Actually any creature with class levels in the MM uses the Elite array (13 12 11 10 9 8).

That is the nonelite array. The elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. In the Monster Manual, most Humanoid Warriors (e.g. the Elf Warrior under discussion) are built with the nonelite array, while advanced monsters (e.g. the Hound Archon Hero) are given the elite array. This is described on page 7 of the Monster Manual.

[Fax Celestis]

Augh, damnable array names.

[NeoPhoenix0]

So, does that mean you can't use those stats for humanoid shape? Then humanoid shape is pretty dysfunctional, since there is no real explanation on what stats to use. It's mostly for blending in anyway, but there are a few good combat humanoid shapes.

[Karnith]

I believe that you would use 10 or 11 in each ability score, modified by the appropriate racial ability modifiers. Per the SRD:

Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability scores. Monsters who improve by adding a template, and monsters who improve by increasing their Hit Dice, may use any of the three arrays (standard, nonelite, or elite). Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite.

(Emphasis mine)

EDIT: Oh, wait, we aren't talking Polymorph anymore. Not sure, then.

[Gadora]

So pigeons?

Metaphorical pigeons.

[Menzath]

Edit: Regardless, I had overlooked one of the major functions of polymorph that the subject reverts to its original form when killed so it's rather useless for creating corpses.

So I still do not see the issue of making an object into a corpse. It was never "alive" and not "killed" so it should still be a viable method of turning 1500Ft cubed into a friendly 12 headed hydra corpse to raise with insane HP. Especially if you made it with those walls of iron you have been stockpiling.

And for clarification the PH reads as

If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

So RAW is quite clear about making Corpses.

[Chronos]

Somewhere I've seen the argument that in D&D, corpses are not actually objects, but are instead creatures with the "dead" condition. It sounds silly, but it does seem to clear up a few dysfunctions.

[Curmudgeon]

So I still do not see the issue of making an object into a corpse. It was never "alive" and not "killed" so it should still be a viable method of turning 1500Ft cubed into a friendly 12 headed hydra corpse to raise with insane HP. Especially if you made it with those walls of iron you have been stockpiling.

If you're talking about Raise Dead, that's clearly going to fail:

In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

No soul willing to return means the spell doesn't work.

[Menzath]

Ah, sorry about the confusion, I meant for animating it into undead.

[Scizor]

Somewhere I've seen the argument that in D&D, corpses are not actually objects, but are instead creatures with the "dead" condition. It sounds silly, but it does seem to clear up a few dysfunctions.

But what happens to corpses who decompose? Clearly, all soil on Oerth is composed of creatures with the dead condition, and therefore all soil is eligible for effects that affects creatures, subject to specific requirements, of course.

[Menzath]

Somewhere I've seen the argument that in D&D, corpses are not actually objects, but are instead creatures with the "dead" condition. It sounds silly, but it does seem to clear up a few dysfunctions.

So, is that a dysfunction then? when does something stop being (dead) and move to being an object?
Does that include flesh to stone'd creatures? and other forms of transmutation?

[The Viscount]

But what happens to corpses who decompose? Clearly, all soil on Oerth is composed of creatures with the dead condition, and therefore all soil is eligible for effects that affects creatures, subject to specific requirements, of course.

That's where necromentals and dust wights really come from.

[Coidzor]

Well, the Necromancer is the Martha Stewart of the spellcasting world, after all.

[The Viscount]

As brought up here, undead can use undead meldshaper to take meldshaping classes usefully, but not meldshaping feats, which still have a con prereq.

[Chronos]

It just came up in the OotS forum that Lesser Confusion never actually says it's "as Confusion, except...", and therefore has no saving throw, casting time, or spell resistance entries. It inherits the table of actions from Confusion, but it doesn't seem to inherit anything else.

And looking it over just now, it's yet another arcane spell that requires a divine focus... despite not being on any divine list at all.

[bekeleven]

And looking it over just now, it's yet another arcane spell that requires a divine focus... despite not being on any divine list at all.

Divine bard, duh.

[Rijan_Sai]

It just came up in the OotS forum that Lesser Confusion never actually says it's "as Confusion, except...", and therefore has no saving throw, casting time, or spell resistance entries. It inherits the table of actions from Confusion, but it doesn't seem to inherit anything else.

And looking it over just now, it's yet another arcane spell that requires a divine focus... despite not being on any divine list at all.

Confusion
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4, Trickery 4
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: All creatures in a 15-ft. radius burst
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Cleric Domain. 1 part solved, at least!

Edit: Confusion, Lesser...apparently, I was hit with it!

[georgie_leech]

Cleric Domain. 1 part solved, at least!

Lesser Confusion, though, isn't on any divine list.

EDIT: Ninja Edited.

[Necroticplague]

A possible dysfunction in that the rules are oddly quite: combining movement modes. All the rules on the SRD seem to assume that all of ones move action is used for one movement. So if you have a 30 foot and and a 40 foot swim speed, and you move 15 feet and jump in the water, how much more can you go? 15? 25? 40?

[holywhippet]

Actually I'd say 20 feet. You've moved half of your movement distance before entering the water, so you have half of your movement left. Half of the 40 foot swim speed is 20. It's a similar situation to using tumble, while you are using tumble you move half of your movement speed.

[Ksheep]

On a similar note:

Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round.

What happens if you have multiple movement types? Easy thing to do is to rule that it only counts your land speed, but then aquatic creatures with only swim speeds wouldn't be able to jump, even though many state that they can and get bonuses to jump. Furthermore, if you had a land speed and a fly speed, it would be conceivable that you could use your fly speed for a jump, especially if it's higher than your land speed. So… do you use the highest of all possible speeds? It wouldn't make sense to jump further while running just because you have a higher burrow speed, would it?