Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

[Ksheep]

I think you replied to the wrong guy. I was the one wh said that old people don't have good hearing. And I've never heard about anythng else, really; My only real experences with the hearing of old people have been that you have to speak loudly, slowly and with clear words in order for them to get what you say. But that's what, at max 50 people out of the whole world? I can accept being wrong.

I believe Andvare was being sarcastic when he said that…

[Vedhin]

The real problem with the Listen thing is not for adventurers. It's for society as a whole. If every low Wisdom character has a 50% chance of not understanding things, that wreaks havoc on society.

Two words: Distance. Penalties.

Thank you.

[bekeleven]

An offshoot of the "int boosting an animal turns its creature type undefined" is the spell Aspect of the Wolf, which explicitly states:

• Your creature type changes to animal
• you retain all mental ability scores

[illyahr]

An offshoot of the "int boosting an animal turns its creature type undefined" is the spell Aspect of the Wolf, which explicitly states:

• Your creature type changes to animal
• you retain all mental ability scores

Ha, fail.

[Harrow]

An offshoot of the "int boosting an animal turns its creature type undefined" is the spell Aspect of the Wolf, which explicitly states:

• Your creature type changes to animal
• you retain all mental ability scores

I'm going to call 'Specific Trumps General' on this one and say under the effects of Aspect of the Wolf you get to be an Animal with >2 INT. I have to, or else I'm not getting any sleep tonight. I'll just lay awake, wondering how often the designers read the rules that their content is interacting with.

[Vedhin]

I'll just lay awake, wondering how often the designers read the rules that they're content is interacting with.

Offhand, I'd say 0% of the time.

[Steward]

Offhand, I'd say 0% of the time.

Yeah. Of course, there's no way they can read it as often or as thoroughly as millions of players over 10-15 years can.

[Curmudgeon]

Two words: Distance. Penalties.

That's a dysfunction. In reality, given equal-size sources, something 2x as far away is 4x as hard to see (Spot) or hear (Listen). D&D's linear penalties for distance have no relation to that. A D&D encounter can supposedly happen at up to 1440' (Plains terrain, with maximum rolls), but it only starts when one side makes a successful Spot check to detect the other party. From page 92 of Dungeon Master's Guide:

Stealth and Detection in Plains: In plains terrain, the maximum distance at which a Spot check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6×40 feet, although the specifics of your map may restrict line of sight.

Plains terrain provides no bonuses or penalties on Listen and Spot checks.

1440' distance imposes a -144 penalty to Spot checks.

[Pickford]

That's a dysfunction. In reality, given equal-size sources, something 2x as far away is 4x as hard to see (Spot) or hear (Listen). D&D's linear penalties for distance have no relation to that. A D&D encounter can supposedly happen at up to 1440' (Plains terrain, with maximum rolls), but it only starts when one side makes a successful Spot check to detect the other party. From page 92 of Dungeon Master's Guide: 1440' distance imposes a -144 penalty to Spot checks.

That makes sense as Spot Checks are to:

notice bandits waiting in ambush, to see a rogue lurking in the alley, to see through a disguise, to read lips, or to see the monstrous centipede in the pile of trash.

None of those represent normal sight, only an attempt to see something trying to hide or conceal itself.

It's worth noting the DMG lists spot checks as one of three plus options for starting encounters, the other two that are enumerated just so happen to be listen checks and sight ranges.

[Curmudgeon]

None of those represent normal sight, only an attempt to see something trying to hide or conceal itself.

Those are examples, and attempting to derive a full rule specification from examples is generally unproductive. While the Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding, it's also used for things in plain sight; see Player's Handbook on page 64 (start of the Skills chapter).

[georgie_leech]

Can we not start the Spot discussion again? We've already had an extremely long and fruitless argument about just that. It begins on page 20 and goes on for the entire rest of the thread.

[Scow2]

The real problem with the Listen thing is not for adventurers. It's for society as a whole. If every low Wisdom character has a 50% chance of not understanding things, that wreaks havoc on society.

Actually, it's more that people are aware that people don't listen to what they have to say, and thus tend to repeat themselves (Three times!) in multiple ways when saying something important, and the laws of grammar also allow intuitive 'filling in the blanks' when you do miss specific words, and can still get the gist of a sentence.

Distance penalties don't kick in until you're more than 10' from someone, and you have to raise your voice to speak to them (DC -5 instead of 0), instead of just talking face-to-face normally.


Hmm... it seems the 3.5 DMG lacks clear rules for handling sight range in the way the 3.0 DMG did, which, if I remember, far better and more realistic - it was the same ranges, but the Spot DC was relatively static (With no distance penalties), and you either saw someone at the Xd6xWhatever feet, or you failed the spot check and automatically saw them at half that.

[Curmudgeon]

Hmm... it seems the 3.5 DMG lacks clear rules for handling sight range in the way the 3.0 DMG did, which, if I remember, far better and more realistic - it was the same ranges, but the Spot DC was relatively static (With no distance penalties), and you either saw someone at the Xd6xWhatever feet, or you failed the spot check and automatically saw them at half that.

No, 3.0 rules were largely the same, with one exception: if you got down to half of the initial distance at which an encounter could have started, you automatically become aware. 3.5 rules retain this only for encountering avalanches and forest fires; for everything else, no encounter happens without a successful Spot or Listen check, even if you've got groups passing each other at close distance.

[TiaC]

For more skill sillyness, a farmer can't identify his own livestock unless he crossclasses Know(Nature). He also can't recognize his own race without Know(Local). You see, the DC to identify a creature is 10+HD. Knowledge checks can only be attempted untrained is the DC is 10 or less. This must be why there are so many half-elves.

[Big Fau]

The Physical Power mantle (Complete Psionics) has an ability that can only be activated with a "Tree Action". Also, the Divine Mind has access to a mantle called "Mental Tower".

How that latter typo occurred is beyond me, as the "P" and "T" keys are nowhere near each other.

[georgie_leech]

The Physical Power mantle (Complete Psionics) has an ability that can only be activated with a "Tree Action". Also, the Divine Mind has access to a mantle called "Mental Tower".

How that latter typo occurred is beyond me, as the "P" and "T" keys are nowhere near each other.

Given it's nature as a defensive mantle, and that towers are defensive structures, while "power" implies offense, it seems more deliberate than a typo. Synonyms would be things like "Mental Fortress," which certainly fits.

[Ksheep]

The Physical Power mantle (Complete Psionics) has an ability that can only be activated with a "Tree Action". Also, the Divine Mind has access to a mantle called "Mental Tower".

How that latter typo occurred is beyond me, as the "P" and "T" keys are nowhere near each other.

Maybe they were using the Colemak keyboard layout? Might explain some other errors as well…

[Curmudgeon]

For more skill sillyness, a farmer can't identify his own livestock unless he crossclasses Know(Nature). He also can't recognize his own race without Know(Local). You see, the DC to identify a creature is 10+HD. Knowledge checks can only be attempted untrained is the DC is 10 or less.

The DM can apply circumstance modifiers here.

Reduce the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task easier, such as having a friendly audience or doing work that can be subpar.

So a 2 HD farm animal could be identified by the novice (subpar work) farmer.

[Big Fau]

Another Complete Psionic dysfunction: The Heavy Earth power has this line:

Since you are in the area of heavy gravity, you are slowed just as other creatures are, but you are never knocked prone when you manifest this power.

If you manifest this power and provoke an AoO, that AoO can never knock you prone (even if a Wolf's bite hits you or a Chain Tripper does his damnedest to try).

[bekeleven]

He also can't recognize his own race without Know(Local). You see, the DC to identify a creature is 10+HD. Knowledge checks can only be attempted untrained is the DC is 10 or less. This must be why there are so many half-elves.

Humans (and elves) have 0 RHD, so that could be considered a DC10.

[Venger]

The Physical Power mantle (Complete Psionics) has an ability that can only be activated with a "Tree Action". Also, the Divine Mind has access to a mantle called "Mental Tower".

How that latter typo occurred is beyond me, as the "P" and "T" keys are nowhere near each other.

Still pales in comparison to the greatest typo ever in stormwrack in the description of the magnificent captain's coat:

Threat the
coast as a shirt or vestment for determing whether it can
be worn with other magic items.

Better start studying how clothes make intimidating comments against landmasses.

[Andezzar]

Humans (and elves) have 0 RHD, so that could be considered a DC10.

No, they have one RHD, but (can) exchange it for class levels.

[Curmudgeon]

No, they have one RHD, but (can) exchange it for class levels.

Actually, no, there's no option ("can"). Humanoids with 1 HD do replace that with their first class HD; you're not allowed to hold onto that racial HD unless you get at least one additional racial HD before your first class level.

[Andezzar]

I wasn't wuite sure whether there was a trick to keep the one hit die.

Anyways the point is moot because every creature has at least one HD and the rules do not call for RHD:

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

[Pickford]

Curmudgeon:

Those are examples, and attempting to derive a full rule specification from examples is generally unproductive. While the Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding, it's also used for things in plain sight; see Player's Handbook on page 64 (start of the Skills chapter).

That example doesn't say 'see' it says 'notice'. The distinction is that noticing means the subject was previously unaware of the existence of said thing. Like Spot, it's indicative of the probability of becoming aware of the existence of a thing. That being said, once one is aware a thing exists they simply see it.

Once you've seen something there's no actual limit to continue seeing it (other than the obvious: curvature of the earth, obstacles blocking view)

for everything else, no encounter happens without a successful Spot or Listen check, even if you've got groups passing each other at close distance.

That's directly refuted by the DMG section on starting encounters. It lists sight ranges, specifically, as being a valid method in addition to spot and listen. Which means Sight ranges and Spotting are two distinct things.

[LordConcrete]

Let's drop the topic of spot checks. I don't think there'll ever be an agreement with everyone.

Seriously, there's been 30+ pages arguing specifically this topic.

[Harrow]

I wasn't wuite sure whether there was a trick to keep the one hit die.

Anyways the point is moot because every creature has at least one HD and the rules do not call for RHD:

If it's just based off of HD, as PCs level up it becomes more and more difficult to discern what race they are.

[Andezzar]

If it's just based off of HD, as PCs level up it becomes more and more difficult to discern what race they are.

That is one of the dysfunction of the rules for discerning species. It is more difficult to identify a colossal flying lizard as a true dragon than a tiny one.

The only creature you could argue that does not work like this is the human. He is not in the MM and thus could be seen as not being a monster.

[NeoPhoenix0]

That is one of the dysfunction of the rules for discerning species. It is more difficult to identify a colossal flying lizard as a true dragon than a tiny one.

The only creature you could argue that does not work like this is the human. He is not in the MM and thus could be seen as not being a monster.

That's because monster isn't quite the right word. Humans seem to act like aberrations in d&d. Only worse, because they are so numerous and regularly successful.

And we should drop those several page arguments. For the sake of this thread it should be enough to say that the rules aren't as clear as they should be (possibly even completely vague).

[Andezzar]

What's clear is that there are no creatures without hit dice, the rules do not refer to racial hit dice and the DC is 10+ # of HD.

Thus the minimum DC is 11, which disallows untrained checks.

Also monster's HD = HD of the monster =/= monster HD.