Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

[TuggyNE]

The only creature you could argue that does not work like this is the human. He is not in the MM and thus could be seen as not being a monster.

Humans are the real monsters.

What's clear is that there are no creatures without hit dice

Technically that may or may not be the case, but as the only creatures I know of that are statted out but without defined HD are intelligent magic items, that doesn't make it any less dysfunctional, since there is no way such an item should be anywhere near as easy to identify as a dwarf or orc or human, never mind easier. (That's right folks, DC 10 K: Arcana check to tell that this finely-wrought sword is actually not just a magic item, but intelligent to boot. No identify spell needed! Works instantly!)

[georgie_leech]

Technically that may or may not be the case, but as the only creatures I know of that are statted out but without defined HD are intelligent magic items, that doesn't make it any less dysfunctional, since there is no way such an item should be anywhere near as easy to identify as a dwarf or orc or human, never mind easier. (That's right folks, DC 10 K: Arcana check to tell that this finely-wrought sword is actually not just a magic item, but intelligent to boot. No identify spell needed! Works instantly!)

To be fair, I'd probably be able to figure out that the sword talking to me was both "intelligent" and magic, and I'm pretty sure I don't have any Knowledge (Arcana) ranks at all.

[TuggyNE]

To be fair, I'd probably be able to figure out that the sword talking to me was both "intelligent" and magic, and I'm pretty sure I don't have any Knowledge (Arcana) ranks at all.

Sure, but intelligent items only get Speech at third tier up.

[bekeleven]

Thus the minimum DC is 11, which disallows untrained checks.

Not quite. Given that all numbers round down, it's a DC of 10 to identify, for instance, a cat.

[Rijan_Sai]

Not quite. Given that all numbers round down, it's a DC of 10 to identify, for instance, a cat.

Good thing too! How many less Commoners would there be if they didn't know they needed to keep far, far away from the Terrifying Beast of Death?

[Andezzar]

Not quite. Given that all numbers round down, it's a DC of 10 to identify, for instance, a cat.

You are right about creatures with less than one HD. I forgot about those. I am not aware of any humanoids with less than one HD though.

So the commoner can identify his nemesis the housecat but not members of his own species. Lol

[Lightlawbliss]

...
So the commoner can identify his nemesis the housecat but not members of his own species. Lol

without DM intervention...: hence dysfunction

Permission to drop it granted

[Rastapopolos]

Dont know if this has been posted already but Incantatrix (and a fair few other "full casting PrCs") only advances spells/day not caster level or spells known by RAW...

[TuggyNE]

Dont know if this has been posted already but Incantatrix (and a fair few other "full casting PrCs") only advances spells/day not caster level or spells known by RAW...

How's that, exactly?

[Fax Celestis]

How's that, exactly?

Spells per Day

When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

So a bard/rogue/arcane trickster gets more spells/day and increased caster level, but doesn't learn any new spells.

sux2bu

[Necroticplague]

Oddly enough, advancing spells/day without spells known eventually ends in having slots you can't cast from because you don't know any spells of that level. Thank WOTC for metamagic.Actually, that makes it seem practically intentional for incantrix, since the fluff says they love to use metamagic.

[Flickerdart]

Oddly enough, advancing spells/day without spells known eventually ends in having slots you can't cast from because you don't know any spells of that level. Thank WOTC for metamagic.Actually, that makes it seem practically intentional for incantrix, since the fluff says they love to use metamagic.

Reasonably certain that you're allowed to prepare lower-level spells in higher-level slots.

[Venger]

Reasonably certain that you're allowed to prepare lower-level spells in higher-level slots.

You are correct, sir![/hades]

A
spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with
a lower-level spell. For example, a 7th-level wizard has at least one
4th-level spell slot and two 3rd-level spell slots (see Table 3–18: The
Wizard, page 55). However, the character could choose to prepare
three 3rd-level spells instead, filling the 4th-level slot with a 3rdlevel
spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast
spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but
must fill them with spells of lower level.

Oddly enough, they seem to have done this anticipating a similar circumstance.

[TuggyNE]

So a bard/rogue/arcane trickster gets more spells/day and increased caster level, but doesn't learn any new spells.

I was mostly questioning the "not increasing CL" bit, really; I had a vague idea that many PrCs didn't advance spells known, at least for Wizards, but couldn't remember the details offhand.

[Andezzar]

I don't think this is a dysfunction, just different classes functioning differently.
From the DMG/SRD:

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained

From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

[nedz]

So a bard/rogue/arcane trickster gets more spells/day and increased caster level, but doesn't learn any new spells.

sux2bu

A Wizard/Rogue/Arcane Trickster would be fine though, well they would have to spend time/money to buy new spells but that's hardly the end of the world. Why does this not surprise me ?

Incidentally your Bard would be OK with things like Arcane Disciple too, or indeed any other option which gave them spells known.

[illyahr]

You are correct, sir![/hades]

Unfortunately, that only applies to those who prepare spells. Spontaneous casters can't as it specifically states a caster can prepare spells in higher level spell slots. Bards and Sorcerers don't prepare spells so they can't use higher level slots.

[Scizor]

Unfortunately, that only applies to those who prepare spells. Spontaneous casters can't as it specifically states a caster can prepare spells in higher level spell slots. Bards and Sorcerers don't prepare spells so they can't use higher level slots.

Actually, it says fill, not prepare. Point is moot anyway, since the SRD says:

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.

Which implies that no, you can't use higher level spell "slots" for lower level spells as a sorcerer. Bard has a similar wording, which says "allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level".

[Ksheep]

Actually, it says fill, not prepare. Point is moot anyway, since the SRD says:
Which implies that no, you can't use higher level spell "slots" for lower level spells as a sorcerer. Bard has a similar wording, which says "allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level".

Actually, with that wording, it sounds like you can "fill" a higher-level slot with a lower level spell, provided you still have at least one spell per day for the appropriate level available. However, once you're out of castings for that lower level slot, the upper slot is unavailable (for that level of spell, at least).

[Rijan_Sai]

Dont know if this has been posted already but Incantatrix (and a fair few other "full casting PrCs") only advances spells/day not caster level or spells known by RAW...

I know this conversation has gone in a different direction (Arcane Trickster and such), but this original post is flat out wrong...at least according to my copy of PGtF. It specifically says:

This essentialy means that she adds the level of incatatrix to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class granted her access to 3rd-level spells, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.

...
...
...
*checks Magic of Faerun*
This version notable does not include that line...I don't know which one is the update, but I think, if I'm reading the copyrights correctly, that PG is the later (and thus more "correct" one). Please fix my error if I am wrong, though...

[Harrow]

I know this conversation has gone in a different direction (Arcane Trickster and such), but this original post is flat out wrong...at least according to my copy of PGtF. It specifically says:


...
...
...
*checks Magic of Faerun*
This version notable does not include that line...I don't know which one is the update, but I think, if I'm reading the copyrights correctly, that PG is the later (and thus more "correct" one). Please fix my error if I am wrong, though...

It's PGtF that has all the metamagic goodies everyone likes Incantatrix for.

[Rijan_Sai]

It's PGtF that has all the metamagic goodies everyone likes Incantatrix for.

Thank you! Then my point stands!

[Coidzor]

If a template or race entry doesn't have a Level Adjustment entry at all, what is one supposed to make of it?

Is it a dysfunction when it appears, an indication of unupdated 3.0 content, or is there some rules text one falls back to that explains it?

[Karnith]

Is it a dysfunction when it appears, an indication of unupdated 3.0 content, or is there some rules text one falls back to that explains it?

It's almost always un-updated 3.0 content, because it wasn't standard to include ECL/LA information for most of 3.0's run (and when it was included, it was often poorly done; extra credit to the Epic Level Handbook and Oriental Adventures for their exceptionally silly handlings of ECL). While there are a few templates in 3.5 that lack a Level Adjustment entry, such as Spellstitched, most templates lacking LA entries are from 3.0. Some notable examples include Vampire Lord, Unseelie Fey, and the Dragon Psychoses. The ones from actual books generally were updated to have LA (even if it ended up being LA: -, as in the case of the MMII Half-Golems) in update booklets or errata, but most of the ones from online articles or Dragon Magazine were never updated. Hence you get silly things like Half-Machine creatures not changing the base creature's LA.

As for creatures/races, you can't use them unless they have a Level Adjustment.

[Andezzar]

And with unupdated 3.0 content the usual caveat applies. The DM is encouraged to make small adjustments - which might be a positive LA or LA: -.

[Curmudgeon]

If a template or race entry doesn't have a Level Adjustment entry at all, what is one supposed to make of it?

If there's no entry, you're supposed to know that it's a creature not suitable for use as a PC. From page 6 of Monster Manual:

Monsters that can be used as player characters have level adjustments and other information to expedite such play, and we’ve reworked all monsters so that they gain feats and skills the same way that player characters do.

Also from page 7 (and on page 7 of Monster Manual III as well):

Level Adjustment
This line is included in the entries of creatures suitable for use as player characters or as cohorts (usually creatures with Intelligence scores of at least 3 and possessing opposable thumbs).

[NeoPhoenix0]

If there's no entry, you're supposed to know that it's a creature not suitable for use as a PC. From page 6 of Monster Manual:

Also from page 7 (and on page 7 of Monster Manual III as well):

That's true for creatures, but for templates if the template doesn't mention level adjustment then it does not modify the base creatures level adjustment.

[bekeleven]

extra credit to the Epic Level Handbook and Oriental Adventures for their exceptionally silly handlings of ECL.

I'm curious. To what does this refer?

[Karnith]

I'm curious. To what does this refer?

Both the Epic Level Handbook and Oriental Adventures include information on ECL/LA for the monsters presented within them. For some unknown reason, though, said information is entirely separate from the appropriate monster entries.

ELH includes the information in a table at the start of its chapter on monsters, on page 156, rather than in the actual creature descriptions. It also did us the kindness of only giving the ECLs of the sample creatures, rather listing the actual LA. While this works fine for normal monsters, it means that you need to calculate the LA of the templates yourself. For example, the sample Paragon creature from the chapter is a Paragon Mind Flayer, and it's given an ECL of 26. This is the only information given on the Paragon template's LA. To calculate the LA of the Paragon template, then, you need to get out your Monster Manual, find the ECL of a Mind Flayer (15), and subtract it from 26, giving you a LA of +11 for the Paragon template.

Oriental Adventures was similarly helpful in giving information on its creatures' ECL/LA, putting said information on a table in a separate chapter from the monster descriptions. I owned that book for years without realizing (or I forgot at some point) that it even had that information in it.

[The Viscount]

Improved fiendish servant gives you a wider list of more useful animals to choose from, in addition to making any servant you choose fiendish. This would be better if fiendish servant didn't already give you a fiendish animal.

The favored soul dead level ability faith healing (found here) allows you to heal 1 point (scaling to more) of damage when making a first aid check. There doesn't seem to be anything preventing you from making first aid checks until your target is topped off.