Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

[TuggyNE]

The favored soul dead level ability faith healing (found here) allows you to heal 1 point (scaling to more) of damage when making a first aid check. There doesn't seem to be anything preventing you from making first aid checks until your target is topped off.

Well, it only works when you're performing first aid.

First Aid
You usually use first aid to save a dying character. If a character has negative hit points and is losing hit points (at the rate of 1 per round, 1 per hour, or 1 per day), you can make him or her stable. A stable character regains no hit points but stops losing them.

So with the dead levels addition, they can gain an extra 1 or more HP at sixth level and beyond when they were bleeding out, instead of just becoming stable.

[Namfuak]

Well, it only works when you're performing first aid.

So with the dead levels addition, they can gain an extra 1 or more HP at sixth level and beyond when they were bleeding out, instead of just becoming stable.

Strictly speaking, a first aid check is usually made to save a dying character. One could argue that because alternate first aid situations are not defined, we would regress to the English definition which includes pretty much any medical aid rendered that isn't in a hospital setting. The idea of a character using first aid to heal some hit points of a character that isn't dying isn't that far-fetched anyway - perhaps he is bandaging a cut or tying a splint to a broken bone. To be honest, the fact that first aid is defined the way it is is probably more dysfunctional than the favored soul thing.

[The Viscount]

In defense of the sort of vagueness of first aid's description, since it only has an effect when used on characters who are at negative hp, the authors didn't need to restrict when it was used until the favored soul dead levels came about. The description for first aid tells you what happens when you use it on a dying character; it doesn't say it may only be used on a dying character.

[Sliver]

Something from the simple Q&A thread that I found amusing...

The domain powers do not specify that they mean the descriptor. It could just as well just be the dictionary meaning of good and evil.

Does that mean that one could cast spells of high quality (AKA Good spells) with increased CL if they have the Good Domain?

Yeah, all the Domain powers read the same way, but since the description says "You cast good spells at +1 caster level." it can be read as "good" instead of "Good"

One could argue that spells aren't really evil, they are just tools, and the Evil Domain's power doesn't work. I guess that wouldn't work either, but still...

[nedz]

Nice idea, but we all know you are simply misreading the word good.

It does remind me of the Cleric with the Good domain who says "I get all the Good spells".

[illyahr]

Something from the simple Q&A thread that I found amusing...



Does that mean that one could cast spells of high quality (AKA Good spells) with increased CL if they have the Good Domain?

Yeah, all the Domain powers read the same way, but since the description says "You cast good spells at +1 caster level." it can be read as "good" instead of "Good"

One could argue that spells aren't really evil, they are just tools, and the Evil Domain's power doesn't work. I guess that wouldn't work either, but still...

Animate Dead has the Evil descriptor, but I got my DM to agree that it was a neutral spell when cast under the right circumstances. I have a LN halfling necromancer who uses the empty vessels of the recently passed to dig their own graves and bury themselves. It had a nice symmetry.

[Fax Celestis]

The kraken can, strangely, use its Jet ability in midair, through ground, up walls, and other such oddities:

Jet (Ex)
A kraken can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 280 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting.

...as it does not specify a movement mode. Theoretically, that would default to a land speed, but that would also make it useless for the creature as-written. I am forced to assume that the designers intended it to be a swim-only option, but if you put the Flying template on a kraken, it can then swoop around in midair at 280'/rd.

[illyahr]

The kraken can, strangely, use its Jet ability in midair, through ground, up walls, and other such oddities:


...as it does not specify a movement mode. Theoretically, that would default to a land speed, but that would also make it useless for the creature as-written. I am forced to assume that the designers intended it to be a swim-only option, but if you put the Flying template on a kraken, it can then swoop around in midair at 280'/rd.

...while covering everything behind it in a layer of black sludge.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I may have a pathfinder one. Damnation Stride from the advanced race guide. It is a dimension door like spell with a duration of 1 min/level.

What does that even mean?

[Lightlawbliss]

I may have a pathfinder one. Damnation Stride from the advanced race guide. It is a dimension door like spell with a duration of 1 min/level.

What does that even mean?

I think that is there because of the mythic part of the spell. (best guess I got)

[Venger]

I may have a pathfinder one. Damnation Stride from the advanced race guide. It is a dimension door like spell with a duration of 1 min/level.

What does that even mean?

ah, pf.

It is likely a duration on the fire effect. that area stays burning for 1 min/lvl, a la drifts of the shalm. an alternate explanation is that you un-teleport after that duration is up, but that seems rather unlikely.

[Andezzar]

Actually:

The burst of fire created reeks of sulfur and brimstone and also acts like stinking cloud (with the same duration as that spell and a separate Fortitude save).

The duration can only apply to that effect. Everything else (teleportation, burst) is instantaneous

[NeoPhoenix0]

Actually:
The duration can only apply to that effect. Everything else (teleportation, burst) is instantaneous

The original spell, the one in the advanced races book, only has the DDoor and the fire burst, and it had the duration then too.

Edit: besides, the stinking cloud thing specifically uses stinking clouds duration. 1 round/level.

[Actana]

On tower shields: you can gain cover behind a tower shield of any size. So in effect a colossal dragon could use a pixie's tower shield to gain cover, then disappear along with the tower shield when hiding. Which is an interesting mental image, to say the least.

I'm not sure if there's some specific rule that disallows it, but I couldn't find anything.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Ya know what, I'm going to suggest something crazy. It takes you 1 min/level to teleport...

Except the spell says if functions as dimension door except for the burst, which happens right when you leave, and the stinking cloud thing has it's own duration. Leaving us with no possible mechanical effect for the duration, except you and the creatures in the burst show up as having an active conjuration spell effect.

[Legendxp]

I just found this out.

Originally posted by SRD
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

So, if I'm reading this right, you can take a free action to speak, immediately after attacking, to recover your AC? It seems a bit dysfunctional to make your shield more effective by speaking to it.

EDIT: Is someone still working on the dysfunctional handbook? If so, could some one link me to it?

[Ksheep]

I just found this out.



So, if I'm reading this right, you can take a free action to speak, immediately after attacking, to recover your AC? It seems a bit dysfunctional to make your shield more effective by speaking to it.

EDIT: Is someone still working on the dysfunctional handbook? If so, could some one link me to it?

Handbook is here, although it looks like it hasn't been updated since early November (and the current thread hasn't been added yet, by the looks of it).

[Fax Celestis]

Tiny creatures in combat dysfunction time go!

Never understood why tiny creatures can't flank, anyway. It's not like it's any easier to disregard something attacking you from the other side just because it's small, as past experience with petsitting tells me.

It's because Tiny and smaller creatures don't threaten adjacent squares and can only attack targets they share a square with. Flanking requires you to be on opposite sides of a creature: a Tiny creature on the opposite side of an opponent doesn't threaten, therefore not providing flanking, and a Tiny creature sharing a square with an opponent isn't on the opposite side, therefore not providing flanking, and has to exit the square after making their attack anyway as it's an illegal spot for them to finish their turn.

TL;DR Not only can Tiny creatures not flank, they also can't full-attack, as they have to move into their target's square, make an attack, and move back out. However, this makes them excellent candidates for the Spring Attack feat chain (esp. its PHB-II additions).

To the dysfunction thread!

[Scow2]

Maybe that spell allows you to dimension-door every round for the duration?

[Big Fau]

I just found this out.

So, if I'm reading this right, you can take a free action to speak, immediately after attacking, to recover your AC? It seems a bit dysfunctional to make your shield more effective by speaking to it.

Same with Chaos/Law Devotion. Makes those two feats quite potent actually.

[The Viscount]

Sorry, but that's not a dysfunction.

A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is.

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.

[georgie_leech]

Sorry, but that's not a dysfunction.

Is there anything there allowing creatures to share the space of the larger creature? Otherwise they can move through, but not actually end their movement within the creature's space.

[bekeleven]

Is there anything there allowing creatures to share the space of the larger creature? Otherwise they can move through, but not actually end their movement within the creature's space.

which means that without spring attack, tiny creatures can't attack in melee at all?

[georgie_leech]

which means that without spring attack, tiny creatures can't attack in melee at all?

Seems pretty dysfunctional to me, yeah.

[Curmudgeon]

Is there anything there allowing creatures to share the space of the larger creature? Otherwise they can move through, but not actually end their movement within the creature's space.

A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square.

That single word implies that they can move into the opponent's square — without having to move out. Underfoot Combat (Races of the Wild, page 152) expands this rule to work with an attacker of up to Small size against an opponent 2+ sizes larger. Confound the Big Folk (Races of the Wild, page 153) requires Underfoot Combat and (to use its various tactical options) staying in the opponent's space for multiple rounds. If all of this is supposed to hang together, then Tiny and smaller creatures are already allowed to make melee attacks without needing Spring Attack.

[Fax Celestis]

Sorry, but that's not a dysfunction.

Per your quote:

A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Okay, so you can move into or through the square, taking an AoO and using your move action.

Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is.

Through, not into, an important distinction: this means you have to move out of the square at the end of your turn. Which means without Spring Attack or similar (Fly-By Attack, for instance), a Tiny creature cannot attack in melee as they have to use their move action to move into their opponent's square, then use their standard action to move out of their opponent's square before the end of their turn.

This quote covers ending your move intentionally in another creature's space (you can't):

Ending Your Movement
You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

And this quote covers being halted in an illegal space:

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

There is no rules support for a Tiny or smaller creature being able to complete its movement in a non-helpless opponent's space, but they are required to do so in order to attack an opponent.

[Flickerdart]

I just found this out.



So, if I'm reading this right, you can take a free action to speak, immediately after attacking, to recover your AC? It seems a bit dysfunctional to make your shield more effective by speaking to it.

EDIT: Is someone still working on the dysfunctional handbook? If so, could some one link me to it?

This is an artifact left over from 3.0 days, when "an action" referred to either when you acted in the round, or your standard action (as listed in spell casting times). This was changed in 3.5 to "your turn" and "standard action" but a few things still kept the old wording because WotC has goats for editors.

[The Viscount]

There is no rules support for a Tiny or smaller creature being able to complete its movement in a non-helpless opponent's space, but they are required to do so in order to attack an opponent.

You just quoted the text that supports them, as did I.

A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

The second piece of quoted text is one I posted because I though you might be thinking about it, and to show how tiny creatures are different than non-tiny creatures.

While the srd says that you cannot end your movement in an occupied square, the above quoted text comes after it in the article. It's a very clear instance of specific trumps general. As Curmudgeon said, it's quite clear. Tiny and smaller creatures can end movement in another creature's square, and the existence of the aforementioned feats relying on this rule strengthens the argument.

[Fax Celestis]

You just quoted the text that supports them, as did I.


The second piece of quoted text is one I posted because I though you might be thinking about it, and to show how tiny creatures are different than non-tiny creatures.

While the srd says that you cannot end your movement in an occupied square, the above quoted text comes after it in the article. It's a very clear instance of specific trumps general. As Curmudgeon said, it's quite clear. Tiny and smaller creatures can end movement in another creature's square, and the existence of the aforementioned feats relying on this rule strengthens the argument.

Actually, this bit comes after:

Ending Your Movement
You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

...and it makes no differentiation between a Tiny- creature and a Small+ creature. Unless your target is helpless, you cannot end your movement in an opponent's square.

Yes, the RAI is that a Tiny- creature can enter an opponent's square to attack, but RAW there are no provisions that allow a Tiny- creature to end their movement in a larger creature's square, just provisions that allow them to move through during their movement--which means that, without an ability that allows them to attack during their movement (such as Spring Attack), a Tiny- creature can't attack a non-helpless opponent in melee, as they're required to end their movement in an opponent's square to do so.

[Harrow]

The best part is that an explicit exception is given in the description of Swarms. So Tiny and smaller individual creatures can't end movement in an opponents square, including other Tiny and smaller creatures, but if they all group together they are just fine.

I would say RAI is very clear on this one, but A)that's not what this thread is about and B) With things like feats that require it, it wouldn't be the first, nor the last, time that the writers didn't understand the rules while making up new ones.