Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

[Scow2]

I think its - Shurikens and Javelins can be morphed into Bows, Crossbows, other "Dedicated" ranged weapons, while Throwing Axes, Daggers, Light Hammers, etc. can only be turned into Light weapons.

It's only half-dysfunctional that way.

[Andezzar]

I think its - Shurikens and Javelins can be morphed into Bows, Crossbows, other "Dedicated" ranged weapons, while Throwing Axes, Daggers, Light Hammers, etc. can only be turned into Light weapons.

While bows and crossbows are ranged weapons, they they are not usually thrown at a target, they launch projectiles at the target. Hence they are not thrown weapons and thus not an eligible weapon to either receive the enchantment or be turned into.

[TuggyNE]

IN that case javelins and shuriken and possibly other dedicated thrown weapons cannot be morphed at all despite being valid targets for the enchantment, because they are neither light, nor one-handed nor two-handed weapons, they are ranged weapons. Hence the dysfunction.

The categorizations are on different axes entirely: "thrown" is orthogonal to "light/one-handed/two-handed", and completely irrelevant. Whether something is thrown or not has no bearing on its handedness, and only handedness counts for Morphing.

There is no dysfunction.

[Vedhin]

The categorizations are on different axes entirely: "thrown" is orthogonal to "light/one-handed/two-handed", and completely irrelevant. Whether something is thrown or not has no bearing on its handedness, and only handedness counts for Morphing.

There is no dysfunction.

An actual dysfunction is Morphing a double weapon into a single weapon. If you assign the weapon the properties of the nonMorphing end, you can't change back.

[Scow2]

While bows and crossbows are ranged weapons, they they are not usually thrown at a target, they launch projectiles at the target. Hence they are not thrown weapons and thus not an eligible weapon to either receive the enchantment or be turned into.

They're both "Ranged" weapons on the table, so it doesn't matter how they fire (Whether are thrown at things or shoot projectiles). You can turn it into a bow, fire off all your ammo, then turn it into a Javelin and throw it.

[Sith_Happens]

They're both "Ranged" weapons on the table, so it doesn't matter how they fire (Whether are thrown at things or shoot projectiles). You can turn it into a bow, fire off all your ammo, then turn it into a Javelin and throw it.

[Ksheep]

Though, if ranged weapons could be two- or one-handed, then a Large creature could dual-wield two Medium bows and still fire both of them.

I think Hand Crossbow covers that:

You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.

The fact that it states "as if attacking with two light weapons" indicates that they are not in and of themselves light weapons, but are treated as light weapons for the purpose of determining attack penalties.

EDIT: Didn't notice that there was another half-page of discussion after this post.

[TuggyNE]

An actual dysfunction is Morphing a double weapon into a single weapon. If you assign the weapon the properties of the nonMorphing end, you can't change back.

Well now, that's true, but I think that's already listed.

[Chronos]

Maybe it's for the best to say that non-melee throwing weapons can't be morphed. If they could, then you could make 50 morphing shuriken, and turn them all into javelins, for a huge discount in price.

[Gadora]

The categorizations are on different axes entirely: "thrown" is orthogonal to "light/one-handed/two-handed", and completely irrelevant. Whether something is thrown or not has no bearing on its handedness, and only handedness counts for Morphing.

There is no dysfunction.

Running off a side note from this... I am poking at a TWFing character, and was looking into weapon selection. Tormtor School, from DotU makes the javelin a passable melee weapon, but... what do you treat it as for TWF? (Although you could argue that you just don't take two-weapon fighting penalties, regardless of its categorization, based on the feat's "You take no penalty when making a melee attack with a javelin." )

[Andezzar]

The categorizations are on different axes entirely: "thrown" is orthogonal to "light/one-handed/two-handed", and completely irrelevant. Whether something is thrown or not has no bearing on its handedness, and only handedness counts for Morphing.

What handedness does a javelin have? If you say none, into which weapons can you transform a javelin?
If you say it has the type thrown weapon, you should be able to change it into a throwing axe. Throwing axes are light melee weapons besides Thrown weapons. Thus they should be able to be changed into other light melee weapons.

The rules give no indication that thrown weapons which do not have a handedness are to be treated differently than those that do.

They're both "Ranged" weapons on the table, so it doesn't matter how they fire (Whether are thrown at things or shoot projectiles). You can turn it into a bow, fire off all your ammo, then turn it into a Javelin and throw it.

A projectile weapon (bows, crossbows, blowguns etc.) cannot accept the morphing special ability because they are neither thrown nor melee weapons and any other weapon cannot be changed into a projectile weapon because morphing weapons can only be changed into melee or thrown weapons.

[TuggyNE]

What handedness does a javelin have? If you say none, into which weapons can you transform a javelin?
If you say it has the type thrown weapon, you should be able to change it into a throwing axe. Throwing axes are light melee weapons besides Thrown weapons. Thus they should be able to be changed into other light melee weapons.

It has handedness Null or N/A. It does not have handedness Thrown. That makes no sense at all and contradicts the rules. Similarly, a bow does not have handedness Ranged, it simply does not have that property and is not categorized in that way. A thrown weapon without handedness can either be transformed only into similarly non-handed weapons, or cannot be transformed at all.

On re-reading Morphing's text, though, it seems to muddle this up something fierce, so I can't entirely disagree that there's a dysfunction; the dysfunction, though, is solely in the bizarre idea Morphing's writer had that, say, composite longbows, or thrown non-melee weapons, have any sort of handedness in the strict sense. The core rules are really rather clear about this.

[Andezzar]

It has handedness Null or N/A. It does not have handedness Thrown. That makes no sense at all and contradicts the rules. Similarly, a bow does not have handedness Ranged, it simply does not have that property and is not categorized in that way. A thrown weapon without handedness can either be transformed only into similarly non-handed weapons, or cannot be transformed at all.

Can you indicate the rule that says thrown weapons with handedness are a different category than thrown weapons without? I can find no such distinction.

On re-reading Morphing's text, though, it seems to muddle this up something fierce, so I can't entirely disagree that there's a dysfunction; the dysfunction, though, is solely in the bizarre idea Morphing's writer had that, say, composite longbows, or thrown non-melee weapons, have any sort of handedness in the strict sense. The core rules are really rather clear about this.

Any sort of bow cannot accept the special ability nor can a weapon be turned into one. They are projectile weapons.

[TuggyNE]

Can you indicate the rule that says thrown weapons with handedness are a different category than thrown weapons without? I can find no such distinction.

I gave the quote above, but here it is again.

Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories.

These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon’s use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon’s usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).

I would like to especially emphasize the word "interlocking" there, as it is the key to the whole thing. There are multiple categorization axes, and they are orthogonal, just like the X, Y, and Z axes of cartesian coordinates. That is, you can mix and match them, and a weapon that is an A on the X category might be a C on the Y category and N/A on the Z category. Here, what I'm getting at is that handedness/encumbrance (not to be confused with carrying capacity, of course) is one such axis; a weapon might be light, one-handed, or two-handed, or may indeed have no handedness listed at all, which is notably the case both for bows and for javelins. However, a weapon of any given handedness can be a thrown weapon, or not a thrown weapon; the two axes are simply not linked in that way. (They are linked in the sense that any weapon usable in melee, which includes most thrown weapons and one or two projectile weapons like bladed crossbows and elvencraft bows, will have a handedness, and no weapon not usable in melee can have a valid handedness, but since there are thrown weapons in both of those groups that's mostly beside the point.)

Any sort of bow cannot accept the special ability nor can a weapon be turned into one. They are projectile weapons.

Yes, quite so.

The wielder of a morphing weapon can reshape it into any other weapon of the same type (light, one-handed, or two-handed) as a standard action. For instance, a morphing longsword could become a battleaxe or a composite longbow.

It's possible this is a version from a different sourcebook than the one you're thinking of, but I don't have direct access to it, so who knows.

[Andezzar]

Yes, quite so.

No. You looked in the right book but in the wrong place:

Property: Melee or thrown weapon

So anything that is not a melee or a thrown weapon cannot be enchanted with the morphing ability. The description then says that a weapon with that ability can only be transformed into melee or thrown weapons, not projectile weapons or other items.

Concerning the categorization, what you are saying does not fit with what we find in the books. A point in Cartesian coordinates (which I assume is to be the particular weapon) can have a 0 value in any or all of the axes, it cannot have a - (or not available) value. That however is the case for thrown weapons that cannot be used in melee.
Even if we use the coordinate analogy and give the inability to be used in melee a value it still produces the dysfunction:
Let's call the handedness x and the status as a thrown weapon y.
then is x can have four values:{N/A;light;one-handed;two-handed}
y can have two:{Yes;No}

As such a throwing axe gets the coordinates (light;Yes)
A javelin would have (N/A;Yes)
A spear would have (two-handed;Yes)
A greatsword would have (two-handed;No)

The rules say that you can change the weapon into any weapon of the same type. As per the following quote however only three types are allowed

You can reshape a morphing weapon into any other melee or thrown weapon of the same size and type (light, one-handed, or two-handed).

The ability to be thrown is not a valid type. So thrown weapons cannot be changed at all because they do not have a valid type.

If you use the status as a thrown weapon as a second axis, you can check that axis and any weapon that has a value on that axis can be changed into any other weapon with the same value on that axis. I.e. javelin (y=Yes) becomes throwing axe (y=Yes) becomes spear (y=Yes) but also has x=Two-Handed and so can be changed into a greatsword (x=two-handed)

Nowhere in the rules is it stated that weapons classified as (N/A;Yes) are a different type of thrown weapons than those with (light;Yes) or that both coordinates must be identical to allow a change.
The same goes for melee weapons (light;no) is indistinguishable from (light;yes) for the purpose of deciding which weapon can be can be changed into which.

[Ksheep]

I just realized part of the confusion. There are two "Morphing" properties: One in "Underdark", the other in the MIC. There are a few key differences between them, namely MIC says "of the same size and type" while Underdark only says "of the same type." Furthermore, the Underdark one does not have the "any other melee or throwing weapon" stipulation, and it also gives in the example "a morphing longsword could become a battleaxe or a composite longbow" (emphasis mine). Oh, and while the Underdark version requires Polymorph Any Object to make, MIC has the requirement of Fabricate.

The question then becomes which one to use. In theory, the MIC would be the proper source, as it was published in 2007, as opposed to Underdark's 2003, and most of the issues are indeed sorted out with the MIC version of the property.

[Andezzar]

I wasn't aware there was a Morphing special ability in Underdark. I was only talking about the MIC version.

[Ksheep]

Looks like the MIC version came from the Underdark version, but was fixed up a bit. Considering that some of the quoted text in previous comments comes straight from the Underdark version, we can probably say that this is the reason for at least some of the confusion and apparent dysfunctions of the property. Going with the MIC version clears up most of these issues, although there may still be some nitpicking to be done…

[TuggyNE]

The ability to be thrown is not a valid type. So thrown weapons cannot be changed at all because they do not have a valid type.

Thrown weapons without a melee listing, such as javelins, indeed do not have a valid type and cannot be changed. That's what I've said all along.

If you use the status as a thrown weapon as a second axis

But why on earth would you do that, when the Core weapons listing clearly separates that and both versions of the weapon ability clearly say to use the light/one-handed/two-handed division only?

[The Viscount]

While we're on the confusing subject of morphing weapons, one question: since bastard swords are both two-handed and one-handed weapons, could one morph a morphing bastard sword into any other one or two-handed weapon?

On another note, Shadowbane Inquisitor allows you to retain your class features if you cease to qualify by no longer being LG, and if you fall as a paladin its levels stack for blackguard bonuses. However, if you fall from LG as a paladin you will lose detect evil and turn undead, which you need to qualify for the class, so that whole thing's rather pointless.

P.S. I haven't forgotten my promise; I'll compile after this Monday.

[Andezzar]

Thrown weapons without a melee listing, such as javelins, indeed do not have a valid type and cannot be changed. That's what I've said all along.

The dysfunction is then, that any thrown weapon (including javelins) is viable to receive the special ability, but in that case the ability does nothing.

But why on earth would you do that, when the Core weapons listing clearly separates that and both versions of the weapon ability clearly say to use the light/one-handed/two-handed division only?

To avoid the above dysfunction, which however leads to another dysfuction: You can change any weapon into any other weapon without restrictions as long as you are willing to go via thrown weapons e.g. kukri->throwing axe->Spear->greatsword

While we're on the confusing subject of morphing weapons, one question: since bastard swords are both two-handed and one-handed weapons, could one morph a morphing bastard sword into any other one or two-handed weapon?

A bastard sword or a Dwarven Waraxe is never a two-handed weapon. Without EWP you can only use it with two hands as a martial weapon.

[nedz]

A couple of Dysfunctions relating to scrolls have come up recently.

Scrolls of a collection of spells exist, but Scribe Scroll provides no way to make them.

Clerics can make scrolls of domain spells, but can't use them unless they are also on their class list.

[Andezzar]

Scrolls of a collection of spells exist, but Scribe Scroll provides no way to make them.

What do you mean by that? You can write more than one spell on a single sheet of paper.

Clerics can make scrolls of domain spells, but can't use them unless they are also on their class list.

How so? they must be on the user's spell list. A user's spell list includes all domain spells he knows.

[Necroticplague]

How so? they must be on the user's spell list. A user's spell list includes all domain spells he knows.

Wrong, they have to be on the users CLASS spell list. While having a domain puts it on your spell list, it doesn't put it on your class spell list.

[The Viscount]

A bastard sword or a Dwarven Waraxe is never a two-handed weapon. Without EWP you can only use it with two hands as a martial weapon.

But if you have EWP, what then? Could you then make it any one-handed or two-handed weapon?

[Andezzar]

Wrong, they have to be on the users CLASS spell list. While having a domain puts it on your spell list, it doesn't put it on your class spell list.

I stand corrected.

But if you have EWP, what then? Could you then make it any one-handed or two-handed weapon?

What proficiencies you have or how you wield a weapon is irrelevant for the morphing property only the type is relevant. A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon and thus can only be turned into other one-handed weapons.

[nedz]

What do you mean by that? You can write more than one spell on a single sheet of paper.

There have been at least two threads discussing this recently.
This is the most recent.

[Nexahs]

Not exactly dysfunctional, but the Invisible Blade PRC from Complete Warrior has Innuendo as a class skill. I guess they're a bit less Invisible and a bit more "Blade"... If you know what I mean.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Not exactly dysfunctional, but the Invisible Blade PRC from Complete Warrior has Innuendo as a class skill. I guess they're a bit less Invisible and a bit more "Blade"... If you know what I mean.

Isn't innuendo a 3.0 player's handbook skill? That seems dysfunctional since they have a class skill that doesn't exist anymore.

[nedz]

Isn't innuendo a 3.0 player's handbook skill? That seems dysfunctional since they have a class skill that doesn't exist anymore.

Yes it's a 3.0 thing.

I was hoping that someone with CWar could double check this, I don't have that book unfortunately.

I know it's listed on DnDTools, but that could be an error on that site.