Dysfunctional Rules IV- It's like a sandwich made of RAW failure!

[Karnith]

Yes it's a 3.0 thing.

I was hoping that someone with CWar could double check this, I don't have that book unfortunately.

I know it's listed on DnDTools, but that could be an error on that site.

It's in the book as well (Complete Warrior, p. 46).

Just a small thing from another book: The Knight of the Thorn PrC from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting requires you to have all Martial Weapon Proficiency feats (of which there are dozens), as opposed to the usual "proficiency with martial weapons." This is presumably because the writer didn't understand how weapon proficiencies from classes work.

[nedz]

Is Complete Warrior 3.0 then ?

If it's 3.5 then we have a copypasta dysfunction, easily fixed using the standard 3.0 to 3.5 update rules.

[Venger]

Is Complete Warrior 3.0 then ?

If it's 3.5 then we have a copypasta dysfunction, easily fixed using the standard 3.0 to 3.5 update rules.

no, complete warrior is 3.5, being printed in december of 03. It's a copypasta dysfunction and (fortunately) IB also gets bluff, so there's no real work to be done.

[Flickerdart]

Is Complete Warrior 3.0 then ?

If it's 3.5 then we have a copypasta dysfunction, easily fixed using the standard 3.0 to 3.5 update rules.

CWar is the first 3.5 splatbook. It was probably in development before the shift so yeah, they just forgot to change it.

[Venger]

CWar is the first 3.5 splatbook. It was probably in development before the shift so yeah, they just forgot to change it.

I thought the miniatures handbook was the first 3.5 book. I'm not sure if it came out before any others, but it definitely predates CWar, being from october of 03.

[Karnith]

I thought the miniatures handbook was the first 3.5 book. I'm not sure if it came out before any others, but it definitely predates CWar, being from october of 03.

As far as I know the earliest (non-core) 3.5 book was Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which came out in August 2003. Other early books (aside from those already mentioned) include Book of Exalted Deeds (October 2003), Underdark (October 2003), and Draconomicon (November 2003).

Unsurprisingly, there are a number of weird 3.0 holdovers in those books.

[nedz]

I thought BoED was the first, since BoVD was 3.0 ?

We should have a handbook which lists these; mind you I've seen different editions of the PH with materiel differences, and I'm not referring to the Premium Edition.

[Chronos]

I just dug up a list. The first 3.5 books after Core were the Miniatures Handbook, Book of Exalted Deeds, Underdark, Draconomicon, and Complete Warrior, in that order.

[Venger]

I just dug up a list. The first 3.5 books after Core were the Miniatures Handbook, Book of Exalted Deeds, Underdark, Draconomicon, and Complete Warrior, in that order.

hoo-ah. thanks for that, chronos.

[nedz]

I just dug up a list. The first 3.5 books after Core were the Miniatures Handbook, Book of Exalted Deeds, Underdark, Draconomicon, and Complete Warrior, in that order.

Do you have a link ?

[Chronos]

Had one, but I already closed the tab. I did copy and paste the list into a text file, though. I edited out the things that looked like just adventure modules and the like, but I might have made some mistakes in that editing.

Spoiler

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2000/08 Player's Handbook
2000/09 Dungeon Master's Guide
2000/10 Monster Manual
2001/01 Sword and Fist
2001/02 Monsters of Faerûn
2001/03 Psionics Handbook
2001/05 Defenders of the Faith
2001/06 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
2001/07 Tome and Blood
2001/08 Magic of Faerûn
2001/09 Manual of the Planes
2001/10 Enemies and Allies
2001/10 Oriental Adventures
2001/11 Lords of Darkness
2001/12 Song and Silence
2002/02 Masters of the Wild
2002/04 Deities and Demigods
2002/05 Faiths and Pantheons
2002/05 Stronghold Builder's Guidebook
2002/06 Book of Challenges
2002/07 Epic Level Handbook
2002/09 Monster Manual II
2002/10 Book of Vile Darkness
2003/02 Savage Species
2003/03 Arms and Equipment Guide
2003/03 Races of Faerûn
2003/04 Fiend Folio
2003/05 Unapproachable East
2003/06 Ghostwalk

2003/06 Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5
2003/07 Monster Manual v.3.5
2003/07 Player's Handbook v.3.5
2003/09 Miniatures Handbook
2003/10 Book of Exalted Deeds
2003/10 Underdark
2003/11 Draconomicon: The Book of Dragons
2003/12 Complete Warrior
2004/02 Unearthed Arcana
2004/03 Player's Guide to Faerûn
2004/04 Expanded Psionics Handbook
2004/05 Complete Divine
2004/06 Eberron Campaign Setting
2004/07 Planar Handbook
2004/07 Serpent Kingdoms
2004/08 Races of Stone
2004/09 Frostburn: Mastering the Perils of Ice and Snow
2004/09 Monster Manual III
2004/10 Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead
2004/10 Player's Handbook (Special Edition)
2004/10 Shining South
2004/11 Complete Arcane
2004/11 Sharn: City of Towers
2004/12 Races of Destiny
2005/01 Complete Adventurer
2005/02 Lost Empires of Faerûn
2005/02 Races of the Wild
2005/03 Sandstorm: Mastering the Perils of Fire and Sand
2005/04 Lords of Madness: The Book of Aberrations
2005/04 Races of Eberron
2005/05 Champions of Ruin
2005/05 Heroes of Battle
2005/06 City of Splendors: Waterdeep
2005/06 Dungeon Master's Guide II
2005/07 Weapons of Legacy
2005/08 Stormwrack: Mastering the Perils of Wind and Wave
2005/09 Magic of Incarnum
2005/09 Sons of Gruumsh
2005/10 Heroes of Horror
2005/10 Magic of Eberron
2005/11 Champions of Valor
2005/12 Spell Compendium
2006/01 Player's Guide to Eberron
2006/01 Races of the Dragon
2006/03 Power of Faerûn
2006/03 Tome of Magic
2006/04 Complete Psionic
2006/05 Player's Handbook II
2006/06 Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss
2006/07 Monster Manual IV
2006/07 Secrets of Xen'drik
2006/08 Dragons of Faerûn
2006/08 Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords
2006/09 Dragon Magic
2006/09 Faiths of Eberron
2006/10 Complete Mage
2006/11 Cityscape: An Essential Guide to Urban Adventuring
2006/11 Dragonmarked
2006/12 Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells
2007/01 Complete Scoundrel
2007/02 Dungeonscape
2007/02 Secrets of Sarlona
2007/03 Magic Item Compendium
2007/03 Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave
2007/05 Complete Champion
2007/05 Drow of the Underdark
2007/06 Forge of War
2007/06 Sinister Spire
2007/07 Monster Manual V
2007/09 Exemplars of Evil: Deadly Foes to Vex Your Heroes
2007/10 Dragons of Eberron
2007/10 Rules Compendium
2007/12 Elder Evils
2008/02 City of Stormreach
2008/03 An Adventurer's Guide to Eberron

[Kamai]

I know this is meant around 3.5 instead of Pathfinder, but I found this little gem in Pathfinder's Disable Device.

"A rogue who beats a trap's DC by 10 or more can study the trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it without disarming it. A rogue can rig a trap so her allies can bypass it as well."

So where in the Rogue's class features do they get this ability (where no other class, even ones with trapfinding, can do this)?

[TiaC]

Speaking of Pathfinder, I liked this bit of text from d20pfsrd.com.

Note: The details for Burrow were not included in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook so the above information was copied from d20srd.org.

I would think that failing to give rules for a movement mode possessed by dozens of monsters sounds pretty dysfunctional.

[TuggyNE]

I know this is meant around 3.5 instead of Pathfinder

It's actually for both, and all entries are checked to see whether they apply to PF as well as 3.5. There aren't too many PF-only ones, but there are some.

but I found this little gem in Pathfinder's Disable Device.

"A rogue who beats a trap's DC by 10 or more can study the trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it without disarming it. A rogue can rig a trap so her allies can bypass it as well."

So where in the Rogue's class features do they get this ability (where no other class, even ones with trapfinding, can do this)?

In Disable Device, of course. Where else?

Oh, you wanted centralization and organization? Sorry, try something that's not related to D&D. And yes, 3.5 has the same problem.

Speaking of Pathfinder, I liked this bit of text from d20pfsrd.com.


I would think that failing to give rules for a movement mode possessed by dozens of monsters sounds pretty dysfunctional.

Heh, yeah. Oh well! There's probably an email from one of the developers published on someone's blog somewhere, so that makes everything fine. Just have to dig that up.

… sorry, my sarcaser misfired there.

[The Viscount]

The temporary hitpoints granted by the vampire's blood drain have no listed duration. Same goes for Vampire spawn. The Boneworm has the same problem, but with its desiccation aura. Same goes for the Siabrie. There are probably others. Not so temporary then, are they?

The Boneworm can also render you shaken with no duration.

[Flickerdart]

The temporary hitpoints granted by the vampire's blood drain have no listed duration. Same goes for Vampire spawn. The Boneworm has the same problem, but with its desiccation aura. Same goes for the Siabrie. There are probably others. Not so temporary then, are they?

Temporary HP have special rules that makes it valuable to label something as them without listing a duration - they don't stack, they're lost first, they can exceed your maximum HP.

[Scow2]

Temporary HP have special rules that makes it valuable to label something as them without listing a duration - they don't stack, they're lost first, they can exceed your maximum HP.

Nothing says temporary HP in D&D 3.5 don't stack, except a few specific temp-HP-granting spells.

In 4e, "Temporary HP don't stack" is the general rule.

[Flickerdart]

Interesting...so a vampire could feast on an entire flock of followers, and then have a huge padding of HP before going into battle? That actually makes the crippling LA a lot less painful.

[nedz]

Wall of Water has no listed height.

That's the version in SpC. The Sandstorm one has different wording, but was published earlier.

[Venger]

Interesting...so a vampire could feast on an entire flock of followers, and then have a huge padding of HP before going into battle? That actually makes the crippling LA a lot less painful.

Yep. However, it will likely lead to complaints of a similar nature to a DM throwing a warshaper with NI natural attacks at you.

[Flickerdart]

Yep. However, it will likely lead to complaints of a similar nature to a DM throwing a warshaper with NI natural attacks at you.

Atop my mighty mountain of spiders, I fear nothing. Come warshapers, break yourself upon this many-legged edifice!

[Venger]

Atop my mighty mountain of spiders, I fear nothing. Come warshapers, break yourself upon this many-legged edifice!

Sort of an unstoppable object vs. irresistible force thing going on:

If a warshaper with NI natural attacks does battle with a vampire with NI hit points what will happen?

[Flickerdart]

I just realized that this isn't the infinite loop thread, and so the spider reference actually doesn't make sense. I was referring to the technical ability to keep pulling spiders (the component for spider climb) out as a free action and then dropping them as a free action to produce the desired quantity of spiders.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Sort of an unstoppable object vs. irresistible force thing going on:

If a warshaper with NI natural attacks does battle with a vampire with NI hit points what will happen?

The warshaper doesn't have NI attacks. I'm pretty sure it has less than 200. Not that that distinction matters much.

[Andezzar]

The warshaper doesn't have NI attacks. I'm pretty sure it has less than 200. Not that that distinction matters much.

AFAIK tentacles do not require an appendage on which they are mounted contrary to the other natural weapons. Thus you can put an arbitrarily high number on the warshaper's body.

[georgie_leech]

AFAIK tentacles do not require an appendage on which they are mounted contrary to the other natural weapons. Thus you can put an arbitrarily high number on the warshaper's body.

I think it's more a reference to the argument that a Warshaper can only grow one of any given Natural Attack. This thread managed to find 103 uniquely named natural attacks for a Warshaper to grow.

[Necroticplague]

Sort of an unstoppable object vs. irresistible force thing going on:

If a warshaper with NI natural attacks does battle with a vampire with NI hit points what will happen?

It depends on which is larger. Though neither of them have a cap as to how much they can have (thus the NI), at any one time they have a definite amount of attacks or HP. So it depends on whether the warshaper has spent more time growing attacks than the vampire has gathering hitpoints. Considering an average attack grown in one round would inflict 3.5 damage on average (1d6 tentacle), while a vampire would have 5 HP from the same amount of time pinning a target, the vampire survives the round with temp HP to spare, unless the warshaper has a strength of greater than 14. Or wearing a +2 amulet of mighty fists. This is, of course, assuming that the warshaper is medium. If he's bigger than Large, it shifts further in his favor.

[bekeleven]

So a minor pathfinder issue:

I'm not sure if this is a dysfunction, but I tend to know a lot about wild shape and polymorph, and it sure confused the crap out of me.

a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks

Later in the same block:

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type.

So, let's break this down with an example. First 3.5, then PF.

In 3.5, I'm playing a human Master of Many Forms disguising as a halfling shopkeep I met. I'm level 8, with 11 ranks in disguise and +2 Charisma. My disguise thus begins at +13.

I use Wild Shape (Humanoid) to become a halfling. I get +10 to disguise.

I am disguising as a difference race so I take a -2. Funny enough disguise has no penalty for disguising as a different size category, but if there were my category changed so no harm no foul. Let's assume I'm the same gender*.

This means my base mod is +21. If I use a disguise kit I get an additional +2.

Now, in Pathfinder. I have 8 ranks, +2 Charisma, and +3 Class Skill bonus for a starting value of +13. I know I'll have the same -2 for being a different race.

Wild shaping into humanoid (let's assume MoMF was ported, despite it dropping 2 tiers) grants a +10 to disguise, fixes my size category (PF has a -10 for different size categories. Funny enough it's NOT cumulative like age categories...), but my appearance is still generic and cannot be used to mimic any individual (even if that person is exceedingly generic). So now I'm at +21 to disguise as this person despite my features being nothing like theirs. How do I remedy it?

I have two ways. One is to accept that I don't look like them but have the skill check to fool anyone that sees me anyway.

The second is to create a mundane disguise on top of my previous disguise. It takes a couple of minutes. Once I'm done, I've changed "minor details" of my assumed form to mimic theirs, and end up with an additional +5 to the check - and that's without a kit.

So: Dysfunction, or just very confusing wording?

*In a game a while back, I was playing a warforged disguise master. Turns out no gender = -2 to disguise all the time.

[Ksheep]

It depends on which is larger. Though neither of them have a cap as to how much they can have (thus the NI), at any one time they have a definite amount of attacks or HP. So it depends on whether the warshaper has spent more time growing attacks than the vampire has gathering hitpoints. Considering an average attack grown in one round would inflict 3.5 damage on average (1d6 tentacle), while a vampire would have 5 HP from the same amount of time pinning a target, the vampire survives the round with temp HP to spare, unless the warshaper has a strength of greater than 14. Or wearing a +2 amulet of mighty fists. This is, of course, assuming that the warshaper is medium. If he's bigger than Large, it shifts further in his favor.

Throw on a couple levels of Cancer Mage, contract Festering Anger, and have NI strength to go with your NI natural attacks and the Warshaper will have a fairly significant advantage.

[NeoPhoenix0]

AFAIK tentacles do not require an appendage on which they are mounted contrary to the other natural weapons. Thus you can put an arbitrarily high number on the warshaper's body.

Morphic Weapons (Su): As a move action, a warshaper can grow natural weapons such as claws or fangs, allowing a natural attack that deals the appropriate amount of damage according to the size of the new form (see Table 5—1 on page 296 of the Monster Manual). These morphic weapons need not be natural weapons that the creature already possesses. For example, a warshaper polymorphed into an ettin (Large giant) could grow a claw that deals 1d6 points of damage, or horns for a gore attack that deals 1d8 points of damage.

If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger. For example, a warshaper who used wild shape to become a dire wolf (Large animal) could grow its jaw and snout, enabling a bite attack that deals 2d6 points of damage (as a for Huge animal), not the normal 1d8.

A warshaper can change morphic weapons as often as it likes, even if it is using a shapechanging technique such as the polymorph spell or the wild shape class feature that doesn't allow subsequent changes after the initial transformation.

You can't have infinite tentacles, you can just have one really big tentacle. Unless of course the form you are in has more than one tentacle, in that case you are limited to that many tentacles.