Destruction of the Universe

[Passer-by]

Hi!

I'm facing a big conundrum here I hope you guys can help me with. I need a few ideas for the motivation of a good guy wanting to destroy the whole Universe. I am sorry about the lenght of this post.

Now, let's see. I'll give you a little bit of context:

This guy was a powerful oracle of time who managed to freeze time for 10.000 years while trying to defend his temple from the drows. Many of his soldiers stood outside of the temple and fought to the death, while he went to a magic time-travelling device inside so he could defend it from the evil drow cleric.

10.000 years later, my players, one of which plays the new Oracle of time, get to the temple so they can unfreeze it and activate the magic time-travelling device. As soon as they get to the temple, the new Oracle's amulet (which is the same as the old Oracle's one, which creates a weird paradox) is able to unfreeze the temple, so they fight their way through it and get to the magic device.

They kill the evil drow cleric, which had already slain the old Oracle, and then they resurrect every cleric and soldier in the temple, with a powerful political ally's help.

As they speak with the old Oracle, they learn that he has lost all of his Oracle powers (including immortality) because of the powerful time freezing spell, and they learn also how to activate the time travelling chamber thingie.

They also learn that the new Oracle's master was the old Oracle's master too, and he built this time travelling device. Another fact: The old Oracle's girlfriend died outside of the temple, so they're unable to even true ressurrect her.

SO, as of right now, two weeks later they have had by now a lot of adventures, and befriended the old Oracle, and they're trying to prevent a world-shattering war with the demons, and the old Oracle is helping them to activate the time-travelling chamber.

I foreshadowed a few times what the Oracle's real motivation to activate the chamber is (he's always talking about how he would have loved to be an Executioner, or subtly being suicidal and careless), but they don't even suspect it, and here's where I need your help.

The heroes will probably save the world, by travelling three weeks back (the machine can only travel to a point in time where the user was in the chamber) and preventing the war, and they will think they've beaten the bad guys, but the real bad guy is the old Oracle, who is waiting for their master to come back, so he can use him to travel to the dawn of time and erase Creation.

Now you know the specifics of this character. I need a motivation SO GOOD that he can't be persuaded otherwise, or that he can even persuade the heroes to actually undo creation.

My ideas so far:
-His girlfriend has been dead for 10,000 years because of him. Death in D&D is cheap, as everyone knows. They wouldn't share an afterlife, anyway, because of alignment. Maybe the Oracle doesn't want to live forever, as he despises eternity.
-Aside from having lost his girlfriend, this guy is somewhat nihilist. He could actually have the philosophical belief that life should not be infinite.
-Maybe he is angry because he lost his powers, his girlfriend, and his master, and wants revenge.
-The world where these characters live is one of many. It's not the oldest, nor the only one. I'm still wondering whether he's able to destroy all of them or not by using this device, or if the existance of Elder abominations and terrible soul eating deities would justify his actions. Some sort of weird sense of mercy.

So, the point is: I want this guy to keep being the charismatic, daring and good willed man he's always been, while wanting to destroy the world. Two of his character flaws is egomania and self-righteousness, so he could be moved by all of these things.

When the heroes talk to him, I want him to be able to argue with them and having an actual point, not to be crazied by his loss. He is broken, yes, but he is resolved.

Also, should the characters be able to persuade him out of it? Or not at all?

Thanks for reading, really. Any ideas will help.

[The Rose Dragon]

There is no "good" motivation for wanting to destroy the universe. It has a lot of people in it, and they probably disagree with him getting rid of the place where they keep their things.

He can have various beliefs that are not falsifiable, and thus irrelevant to any real discussion, such as thinking the world is a dream where everyone is trapped, and the dream universe must be destroyed to release them back into their real lives, but if he genuinely wants to get rid of all existence ever, that is both selfish and unimaginably sociopathic. The players can agree of their own selfish reasons, or just due to the sheer presence of the oracle, but it will put them in the same category as him.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Maybe he believes he can make a new, better multiverse, without the mistakes of the old one?

He's torn up and nihilistic over his own failures to protect those he cared about, but instead of being inwardly depressed about this, he projects his suicidal tendencies outward into what he thinks is a constructive, cleansing goal: starting over.

This would mean he'd have to have a way to start the multiverse again, and be sure to be able to steer it.
Of course, that needn't be a real, reliable method. He could have been tricked into this by demonic / extradimensional forces who won't be effected themselves by this destruction / reboot.

*shrugs*
Externalising feelings of inadequacy is relatively common among smart, rational people when they've been depressed for a long time - and he's had ages...

[Brookshw]

Could you go with "reset" rather than destroy?

[Passer-by]

That's the problem. Why would anyone agree with that?

Most movie villains are sociopaths, or angry guys looking for revenge, none of whose motivations looks human at all.

When you speak to one who is wrong, if he is intelligent, he will justify his actions with good points he's been thinking about for a long time. Think of this guy as a philosopher, a good guy with power, who has lost his way, and now seeks both his death and everyone else's.

Thanks for reading.

Could you go with "reset" rather than destroy?

EDIT: Yes, if you can find a good reason for him to do this, he could pull that off. And the heroes would be more interested than they would be in that world anihilation thing.

EDIT 2:

Maybe he believes he can make a new, better multiverse, without the mistakes of the old one?

He's torn up and nihilistic over his own failures to protect those he cared about, but instead of being inwardly depressed about this, he projects his suicidal tendencies outward into what he thinks is a constructive, cleansing goal: starting over.

This would mean he'd have to have a way to start the multiverse again, and be sure to be able to steer it.
Of course, that needn't be a real, reliable method. He could have been tricked into this by demonic / extradimensional forces who won't be effected themselves by this destruction / reboot.

*shrugs*
Externalising feelings of inadequacy is relatively common among smart, rational people when they've been depressed for a long time - and he's had ages...

That is an awesome answer. Guilt totally suits this character, being so confident as he is, he can totally being hiding guilt from the heroes. And instead of anihilation, he seeks some sort of new start.

Keep it up, that was great.

[Scow2]

Usually, ending the world as we know it for 'good' causes is to herald it into the next existence, keeping the good while purging the bad, and not ending everything forever.

Ending everything forever is just horrific.

[Passer-by]

Usually, ending the world as we know it for 'good' causes is to herald it into the next existence, keeping the good while purging the bad, and not ending everything forever.

Ending everything forever is just horrific.

Well, from this guy's point of view, "the good guys" and "the bad guys" do exist, and must fight each other. He's only a good guy so he can restore balance... first, by helping avoid the war... Then, by either, as I originally imagined, erasing all of existance, or maybe just this world, or creating a new one. The only thing in this Universe that is out of the balance is this bunch of outer gods or whatever from other dimensions, who don't belong in D&D's alignment system.

If these gods are as terrible as he and his master belive, then erasing existance would be an act of mercy.

But if you can come up with a better point than this for ending the world, go ahead. If you can come up with a good point for resetting the world, go ahead as well.

What I need is a justified action, from a human's point of view, for betraying the heroes and destroying/undoing the universe, whether it's for creating it all over again, or simply destroying it.

EDIT: You are all being really helpful, I'm getting all sorts of good ideas out of this.

[The Rose Dragon]

That's the problem. Why would anyone agree with that?

Three possible reasons come to mind.

1) Gullibility. Note that this is not the same thing as stupidity. A lot of perfectly intelligent people do some gullible things simply because people are not perfectly rational all the time.

2) Similar motivations. Maybe the characters also wanted to destroy everything (go go Abyssal power!), and are just angry this guy would beat them to the punch.

3) Misinformation. Maybe they don't know the actual motivations of the oracle, and he is perfectly willing to lie to them to get them to play along.

No matter what he might tell himself to go forward with his plan, and no matter how convincing he might be to others, he is trying to commit genocide, thousands of times. It becomes especially worse if he is also trying to destroy any possible afterlives. There is no good, rational motivation for that. So you can either go for the abstract, not falsifiable and rationally meaningless beliefs (which can go well with the concept of a philosopher who became unhinged), or embrace the fact that he is a nutcase, even if he is still otherwise intelligent and articulate.

Incidentally, Final Fantasy XIII-2 has an example of such a villain who wishes to end existence as we know it, has an internally-consistent motivation for it, cannot be persuaded to change his course, and is still a sociopathic monster of the highest degree because he is willing to let everyone die to get what he wants.

Spoiler

Show

Essentially, he wants to destroy time, because the girl he loves is a seer, and her visions lead to her dying at a young age and reincarnates over and over again, and he is her immortal guardian, so has to keep witnessing her death. If there is no time, there is nothing for her to get visions of, and she can live without pain. Even the girl thinks his plan is insane, and tries to stop the heroes from bringing it to fruition.

[Segev]

A depressingly nihilistic nugget of philosophy that could help him construct his arguments: "What is the point of being happy now if you'll only be miserable later?"

Couple that with a tragically pained belief that life is mostly just misery, that existence is pain with only a few bright spots of happiness (and those but brief lies), and you have a bit of philosophical ground on which he can stand and begin constructing his justifications.

I don't know how much time you have to build this up; if you do have enough, have him be one of the best, most sympathetic shoulders to cry on out there. He empathizes and sympathizes, and offers comfort while never ever telling them their pains are less than they are. He offers "small comforts" to help ease it.

He doesn't believe that it will get better, but he doesn't want to hurt people more by telling them that. Nor does he want to lie to them and tell them it will.

But, having been there to hear all their pains, big and small, and to be their friend and support through them, he can bring them each up - not as swords to wound, but as evidence that pain is inescapable - during the argument as to why the universe must be destroyed.

Have him let them use the device to try to go back and fix some of the sources of their pain, but don't be afraid to have other problems come up that make it of questionable worth having done so. This will only prove that existence is inescapable pain. Perhaps he's tried it, himself, many many times.

Perhaps he was, in one timeline, friends with the drow cleric. The drow cleric had some great tragedy in HIS past, and was trying - over and over again - to fix it. Each time, the drow cleric changed things in ways that made things worse. At first, the old Oracle was helping his then-good friend. But after his changes to the past turned the entire Drow race into vile monsters, the old Oracle realized he had to stop his friend. His friend, the drow cleric, became his enemy because he believed that he could still make it right, that stopping now only made everything he'd done wrong, but that if he could do it right this time all the pain he'd caused would be undone and worth it.

His plans, quite probably, would have made a bigger catastrophe; the old Oracle was (probably) right to stop him. But it all has made him convinced that non-existence is mercy. Existence is pain and suffering.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

"This universe is beyond saving. It's time to let the credits roll."

[mucat]

-His girlfriend has been dead for 10,000 years because of him. Death in D&D is cheap, as everyone knows. They wouldn't share an afterlife, anyway, because of alignment. Maybe the Oracle doesn't want to live forever, as he despises eternity.

Alter this a little, and it could be part of his motivation...

Suppose his lover is not dead (or at least, not erased from existence), but trapped in a state of agony. Then give the two of them a telepathic bond that works even through the time-freezing spell. For ten thousand years, the Oracle has felt the one he loves in unimaginable suffering, and been helpless to change a thing.

Now he is free to act...but he still feels her agony, and there is still nothing he can do for her. The state she is trapped in -- due to some desperate cosmic manipulation that the two of them had to perform in ancient times -- is inextricably tied to the fabric of the universe itself. The only way to end her suffering is to end reality.


By itself, this motivation isn't enough to preserve his "good guy" status. To say "I'm going to save the one I love, and everyone else can go hang" is a more sympathetic form of evil, but it's still evil. But perhaps he has generalized from her fate to a universal principle...in the long run, existence is unbearable agony for everyone. Hell, if the universe is in the hands of Old Gods as you hinted, maybe he's right. Combine this with some of the other motivations people have proposed -- especially the possibility of restarting the universe in a better state, where such terrible truths don't apply -- then his lover's fate might be the final factor that tips him toward the apocalyptic plan.

It also raises a possible line of investigation for the new Oracle. If the old Oracle is wrong -- if there is a way to undo the event which doomed his love, without also erasing the universe -- then he might repent and help them reverse his plans. (And in classic storytelling fashion, he could do so only at devastating cost -- perhaps he even willingly takes her place in suffering. It is left as an exercise to the reader whether she then gradually goes insane with guilt and tries to erase reality. Could be a cosmic cycle here...)


EDIT:
You could ramp up the horror even more for the unfortunate pair. Suppose the telepathic contact is two-way. The Oracle's lover is in far too much pain to think rationally or comprehend much. But during that ten-thousand year span of suspended time, he promised her constantly that he was there, and would never leave her alone. He can tell that she understands, at least a little, and that his presence is the one tiny bit of comfort she has left.

And now time has started again for him, and he has lost his immortality. In a few short years he will die, and he will leave her to suffer alone, for eternity. Just enough of her mind remains that she will sense that she has been abandoned, and never understand why. Unless he can end things now.

Let the PCs learn these things gradually. During their time-travel shenanigans, they could realize that some sort of entity is bound to the time chamber, and in terrible pain. As their adventure progresses, they pick up more bits of data...until the Oracle reveals the whole story at his Face/Heel turn. At thie point if I were one of the PCs, I might still regard the Oracle as a complete villain who has to be stopped at any cost…but I would feel like crap if I couldn't also give some decent resolution to the trapped spirit.

[Brookshw]

EDIT: Yes, if you can find a good reason for him to do this, he could pull that off. And the heroes would be more interested than they would be in that world anihilation thing.

Is there any particular force or event that's lead to his unhappiness with the current state of the world? Defining that a bit further would help. I can easily see a motivation for Dr. Who The Oracle to want to go back in time and prevent the problem that plagues existence and has caused him to want to destroy it. An example from one of my current antagonists, he blames the pact primeval for the abundance of evil in the world and thinks if things could be reset the temptation and corruption of mortals clause could be avoided.

So is there some large event/thing that he might blame for whatever is making him want to seek destruction?

Maybe this doesn't help much

[NichG]

Really I think the only way to convince some arbitrary set of PCs that the universe should be ended is if doing so somehow makes way for a new existence of some sort. Anything predicated on 'life is suffering and it is better to not-be than to be' is too easily countered by 'well I'm having fun right now'.

- 'Reality as we know it is a dream, its time to wake up'
- 'Our universe is smothering baby universes in order to continue to exist past its time; every year you live costs the lives of countless others, you just don't know it'
- Even 'We're just characters in a D&D game, drawing out this post-apocalyptic crapsack world. Once this campaign ends, the DM is going to run a high-fantasy game that will be awesome. So just let me TPK you already, your players will have more fun with the new campaign and its not like you're really dying'

You're going to get a lot less traction with abstract stuff like 'we do not know what is real or not, so I must destroy every I can to see what is left'.

Edit: Here's an interesting one:

- 'Cheap and easy time travel will be discovered in 5 years. Once this happens, the timeline will unravel. Not only will the future be destroyed anyway, but so will the past and present. I am willing to sacrifice those 5 remaining years so that the past at least can survive.'

I still don't see PCs going for it though.

[Passer-by]

1) Gullibility. Note that this is not the same thing as stupidity. A lot of perfectly intelligent people do some gullible things simply because people are not perfectly rational all the time.
2) Similar motivations. Maybe the characters also wanted to destroy everything (go go Abyssal power!), and are just angry this guy would beat them to the punch.
3) Misinformation. Maybe they don't know the actual motivations of the oracle, and he is perfectly willing to lie to them to get them to play along.

Those look like the kind of motivations I'm trying to avoid. Him being gullible would totally make him unreasonable and crazy from the characters point of view, so no choice, no need to listen to his stupid reasons. As for the second point: the characters are trying to save the world, so, yeah, they won't, at first, agree with the old Oracle.
As for the lying, I think it doesn't give an appropriate ending to the campaign. They can't have a final boss whose motivation is unclear. This guy must not lie to them. Even if he acts out of remorse, or out of guilt, he must have an actual justified goal which he can persuade everyone about without lying. If he must lie, then he will realize maybe it's not such a good idea.

Incidentally, Final Fantasy XIII-2 has an example of such a villain who wishes to end existence as we know it, has an internally-consistent motivation for it, cannot be persuaded to change his course, and is still a sociopathic monster of the highest degree because he is willing to let everyone die to get what he wants.

Spoiler

Show

Essentially, he wants to destroy time, because the girl he loves is a seer, and her visions lead to her dying at a young age and reincarnates over and over again, and he is her immortal guardian, so has to keep witnessing her death. If there is no time, there is nothing for her to get visions of, and she can live without pain. Even the girl thinks his plan is insane, and tries to stop the heroes from bringing it to fruition.

This, however, is awesome. It's selfish, but it's not for the evulz. But I don't see any character agreeing with such a selfish villain. They would stop him, because he's terribly selfish and wrong. But I liked the idea a lot, so thank you.

I don't know how much time you have to build this up; if you do have enough, have him be one of the best, most sympathetic shoulders to cry on out there. He empathizes and sympathizes, and offers comfort while never ever telling them their pains are less than they are. He offers "small comforts" to help ease it.

He doesn't believe that it will get better, but he doesn't want to hurt people more by telling them that. Nor does he want to lie to them and tell them it will.

But, having been there to hear all their pains, big and small, and to be their friend and support through them, he can bring them each up - not as swords to wound, but as evidence that pain is inescapable - during the argument as to why the universe must be destroyed.

This is pure genius. Only if the players can directly relate to the old Oracle's motives will they ever be even remotely persuaded. This is the kind of humanizing elements I need to introduce. Great idea, thank you. Your npcs must be really well fleshed out if you can come up with such ideas.

Perhaps he was, in one timeline, friends with the drow cleric. The drow cleric had some great tragedy in HIS past, and was trying - over and over again - to fix it. Each time, the drow cleric changed things in ways that made things worse. At first, the old Oracle was helping his then-good friend. But after his changes to the past turned the entire Drow race into vile monsters, the old Oracle realized he had to stop his friend. His friend, the drow cleric, became his enemy because he believed that he could still make it right, that stopping now only made everything he'd done wrong, but that if he could do it right this time all the pain he'd caused would be undone and worth it.

His plans, quite probably, would have made a bigger catastrophe; the old Oracle was (probably) right to stop him. But it all has made him convinced that non-existence is mercy. Existence is pain and suffering.

I only wish I myself could travel back in time and put this awesome piece of storytelling in the adventure. Sadly, many elements of the story and the lack of foreshadowing would contradict the big reveal, so I can't use it. But seriously, this is great.

awesome stuff

I'm seriously impressed with both you, mucat, and you, Sergev. Those are ideas I could never come up with, and they're really helpful.

I kinda cheated at the specifics of the überspell the old oracl cast, so the drow cleric would unfreeze when the heroes arrived at the magic time travelling chamber. This, combined with the fact that the chamber itself is some sort of extradimensional space, could explain why the old Oracle was sharing thoughts with his girlfriend, and why her soul got trapped in such a extradimesional prison. It may fit and I can pretend I've always imagined it this way.

Also, it DOES solve the afterlife problem: It's not only a D&D afterlife problem, it is a particularly difficult situation, whose only solution is to destroy everything that exists.

- 'Reality as we know it is a dream, its time to wake up'
- 'Our universe is smothering baby universes in order to continue to exist past its time; every year you live costs the lives of countless others, you just don't know it'
- Even 'We're just characters in a D&D game, drawing out this post-apocalyptic crapsack world. Once this campaign ends, the DM is going to run a high-fantasy game that will be awesome. So just let me TPK you already, your players will have more fun with the new campaign and its not like you're really dying'

I would dislike so much meta introduced in the last session, and I think my players would too. Also, it kinda contradicts the multiverse theory that both oracle's master hinted at. This campaign is more similar to Cthulhu's Myths than it is to Matrix. So, nope, no meta at this point.

Is there any particular force or event that's lead to his unhappiness with the current state of the world? Defining that a bit further would help. I can easily see a motivation for Dr. Who to want to go back in time and prevent the problem that plagues existence and has caused him to want to destroy it. An example from one of my current antagonists, he blames the pact primeval for the abundance of evil in the world and thinks if things could be reset the temptation and corruption of mortals clause could be avoided.

So is there some large event/thing that he might blame for whatever is making him want to seek destruction?

He's pretty good at hiding, but I try to hint often how broken the 10,000 years lapse and his girlfriend's sacrife have left him. I think these are the main things that changed his life in a bad way, even more than having lost the first war (when he had to cast the spell). I think those are the main events that might have changed him

This is common in fiction: The guy who, after some traumatic experience, actively seeks death. The old Oracle has been sort of aggressive to other npcs, but confident when the PCs are around, and helpful. My players tend to like NPCs who side with them, because many factions in this world have been rejecting the PCs, or pursuing them for knowing too much, or being unhelpful. They are totally charmed by the old Oracle, by his confidence and his jokes, but all the subtle hints that he has ulterior motives, that he is actually willing to undo creation, will make sense in the end.

I need to think about all these new ideas. Does he want to reset creation? Does he want to save his girlfriend from this extradimensional prison? Is he just commiting suicide out of guilt? They all fit the character, and every single hint I've given the players, and they are all good.

Maybe this doesn't help much

Totally does. Everyone here has got a lot of imagination and great ideas.

[The Rose Dragon]

Him being gullible would totally make him unreasonable and crazy from the characters point of view, so no choice, no need to listen to his stupid reasons.

You misunderstand. In that scenario, he is not the gullible one, the player characters are (and let's face it, that is often true).

[Passer-by]

Now I get it. They would agree because they are being gullible. Not the guy, but the PCs.

Yes, I think anyone agreeing with that would be gullible, or at least, too easy to persuade.

I don't think the characters will agree with him, nor can he expect that. He will probably expect a fight. A fight he must not win, of course, because he is the big bad.

But I need the players to actually consider the idea that the Oracle might be right. Or, at least, I need that, years from now, when they remember the character, they remember this awesome guy who was not entirely despicable, but an intelligent man who, for all the wrong reasons, tried to destroy everyting, and failed. Someone they didn't want to kill, but had to.

My players are intelligent, they won't let him persuade them. But he must have solid reasons, reasonable ones, that justify him at least partially.

I must decide whether his reasons are selfish (saving his girlfriend, as it's been suggeted), philosophical (an actual idea he wants to take to its full consequences, and will share with the PCs), or simply wrong. I like the second one most of all, but I'm considering the first.

I know the second one can be unreliable if I don't start thinking like a sophist, and give the Oracle reasons so good and so well explained to do what he's doing that will actually make the players doubt.

If I can't find a way to make him convincing to the players, they will see this like another unexpected Face-heel turn, and feel no remorse for killing him. Some in this thread have suggested external causes, some have thought of clever ways to make him likeable while trying to do something so terrible. And you are pointing out the inherent problems of the whole thing, which I expect my players will point out as well.

Should I give him further reasons to do this (saving his girlfriend, for example), or should I make this a choice, justified only by a philosophical view he's acquired because of what has lived through? The second one is the hardest, but might be more satisfying if I can pull it off.

[Slipperychicken]

He could claim (perhaps mistakenly, perhaps as an outright lie) that if he undoes creation, it will be reborn so he can watch over the "new" creation to make it a perfect paradise free of wickedness. He can sell it as the ultimate sacrifice to make the perfect universe.

Basically, he's claiming not to destroy the universe, but to reboot it. And it's not like the PCs will know the difference; they'll be wiped out either way.

[SimonMoon6]

No more pain. No more suffering. An end to all injustices. An end to all that's evil.

And that which is good will live forever in the afterlife. That which is evil will suffer an eternity in the afterlife. The perfect justice.

[Deffers]

If anybody ever elects to undo the universe and then recreate it either under their watchful eye or in their image, the adventuring party is contractually obligated to obliterate this somebody, regardless of the party's alignment or the perpetrator's alignment. It's just, like, a narrative law. In any case most people would probably be like "Yeah, YOU get to reshape the world in whatever image suits you best. We'll all just die. Real selfless. Right. Stabby time, yo!"

What you could do is a Scratch scenario, which is a specific variant of the "reset the universe" scenario. Basically, the world is wrong somehow, and it won't bear fruit. You can change what that means, but the basic idea is that it needs to be rebooted because everyone is provably boned otherwise. Everything in the universe will undergo a hard reset, which means everyone in the universe perma-dies. New permutations will take their place and succeed where the past iterations could not.

Now, the kicker is this; everything in the UNIVERSE is reset. If you're in, say, the Far Realm or its equivalent when this happens, you're fine. Suddenly, the heroes have a second option; they can save their friends, they can save their loved ones. If they're really big damn heroes, they can save EVERYONE. Then, once the cosmic task, whatever it is, is complete, they can rejoin the rebooted universe in a happy cosmic union.

Now, the PCs have options. They can either fight off this cleric, believing that this universe can still be fixed, reset the universe and bring their loved ones along, or try and save EVERYBODY and get the best ending. This last bit should be unbelievably difficult, and suitably heroic, calling upon the greatest heroes of the land. Maybe the cleric of time can stay behind as the last person needed to reboot the universe. Maybe?

[Brookshw]

Develop the girl more, let's hear about the sacrifice.

Heck, have him being the subject of some crazy power that's convinced him its the best way.

[Slipperychicken]

Develop the girl more, let's hear about the sacrifice.

Honestly, if your best reason for destroying the universe is "boo hoo my girlfriend died", then you really have no business trying to destroy it.

And if he wants his girlfriend to be perma-dead, he could simply destroy her soul.

[Brookshw]

Or ressed w/ a heal to cure any insanity but that's not what he's going with. So if there's something maybe to develop, explore it. As you might have noticed I had suggested "reset".

[Passer-by]

If anybody ever elects to undo the universe and then recreate it either under their watchful eye or in their image, the adventuring party is contractually obligated to obliterate this somebody, regardless of the party's alignment or the perpetrator's alignment. It's just, like, a narrative law. In any case most people would probably be like "Yeah, YOU get to reshape the world in whatever image suits you best. We'll all just die. Real selfless. Right. Stabby time, yo!"

Yes, he must give them good reasons not to kill him ipso facto. This is the hard part of this: An extreme situation, but a moral choice too, for the players.

What you could do is a Scratch scenario, which is a specific variant of the "reset the universe" scenario. Basically, the world is wrong somehow, and it won't bear fruit. You can change what that means, but the basic idea is that it needs to be rebooted because everyone is provably boned otherwise.

I do like this: If this world is inherently flawed (it's already been hinted during a plot point that there are ancient deities older than this campaign world's gods, and they could easily be evil or simply too powerful not to fear), resetting it is the hard thing to do, but it is necessary. I would need to make clear that this world is inherently flawed, and make the players clearly see this. I'd appreciate more ideas in this direction.

Now, the PCs have options. They can either fight off this cleric, believing that this universe can still be fixed, reset the universe and bring their loved ones along, or try and save EVERYBODY and get the best ending. This last bit should be unbelievably difficult, and suitably heroic, calling upon the greatest heroes of the land. Maybe the cleric of time can stay behind as the last person needed to reboot the universe. Maybe?

That would require for the reveal of the Oracle's intentions to be not the ending of the campaign, and the last fight, but to be the start of a bigger quest. I can't use this one!

Develop the girl more, let's hear about the sacrifice.

Heck, have him being the subject of some crazy power that's convinced him its the best way.

If someone is that interested in what actually happened with the Oracle's girlfriend, here it is. Not that it matters that much for the discussion: She sacrificed to save the Temple. I know how tedious is to read every single detail in other DMs campaigns. But, if it helps, here it goes:

Spoiler

Show

She was an elven paladin, in charge of the soldiers of the temple where the Time travelling chamber is. 10,000 years before the campaign started, there was a terrible war between the forces of evil and the material plane. One of the first locations to fall was this Temple. Now the story repeats itself, but the drows are winning this time. During this fight, she was killed, and the cleric got to the chamber, so the Oracle had to cast the time stopping spell. 10,000 years later, the PCs got to the chamber and waited for the drow cleric to unfreeze, and utterly destroyed her in two rounds, by winning initiative and dealing crazy damage to her. The drow cleric was supposed to win that fight, and leave the chamber and become a recurring villain, but she was obliterated by my players. It was anticlimactic, but they felt awesome and heroic.

Everyone who died after the spell was cast (the spell froze the battle), and inside the spell radius, could be resurrected afterwards by the PC's allies. This includes the elven paladin's sister, and the New Oracle's current cohort, an Oracle of War. But the Old Oracle's girlfriend was outside of the temple, and so, no resurrection spell covers her 10,000 years being dead.

The Old Oracle recovered the armor from his girlfriend's skeleton by the Temple's entrance, and now he keeps it in his room.

Her current state I have not decided yet. Has she moved on, while in her afterlife, and the Oracle knows this? Is she trapped in time because of some magic whatever, and this is the motivation for the Oracle to undo everything?

And could I exploit her sister being alive? Some drama between the Oracle and his girlfriend's still alive sister? Guilt over getting her killed? Also, there's the fact that it was one of the PCs who killed the elven paladin's sister during the fight, so he could join the drows (he is a drow too) and lure them into a trap? No one knows this except him, and, of course, the players. But not the characters.

Yes, I think I could introduce an external force of evil that wants to benefit from the Time travelling machine so it can undo creation, but I want the Oracle to be the "mastermind", and his decisions to be his and his alone. If it's not done this way, my players will think of him as a peon, as someone controlled by the Actual Big Bad. Nope, this Oracle must be his own master, and so, the True enemy to everything that exists, even if he's got his own reasons to do so.

Honestly, if your best reason for destroying the universe is "boo hoo my girlfriend died", then you really have no business trying to destroy it.

This is a very good point. I can't let this guy be an angry idiot trying to get petty revenge over something that is pretty much his fault. There must be something else.

No more pain. No more suffering. An end to all injustices. An end to all that's evil.

And that which is good will live forever in the afterlife. That which is evil will suffer an eternity in the afterlife. The perfect justice.

I think the whole "destroying the multiverse" puts his reasoning beyond "good" and "evil" in the D&D sense. He's no longer considering those: Good and evil existing is a problem in itself.

Basically, he's claiming not to destroy the universe, but to reboot it. And it's not like the PCs will know the difference; they'll be wiped out either way.

I can't make him lie. If he is stopped, they will think that was his plan, so the truth will never be found, because the campaign ends there. If he persuades the PCs, they don't find the truth either, because, well, they're dead. I think I have to avoid outright lies. Make him as honest as I can, even if he turned like that because of the loss of his girlfriend. He must be morally justified from a weird point of view, so he can believe in what he's doing.

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I acknowledge it's increasingly boring to read each one of my posts, because they are full of details, and I apologize for it. The first post says pretty much everything, though, if you want to contribute more ideas.

Again, thanks everyone for your time and help.

[Deffers]

Well, consider the idea, then, that the campaign may end with the revelation of your Oracle's plan, but the universe doesn't necessarily have to end with the campaign. That is to say, you can kill the universe off in the epilogue.

There's ways you can spin it. Like the universe ending ritual has to start NOW or we'll have to soldier on in the provably boned universe. Once it's in place, you have an ambiguous ending-- did your heroes evacuate the reality in time? Did they save their loved ones? Best part is that you can totally revisit this universe and see what went on.

Yeah, that's a big problem with the Scratch scenario. The event from which it was named was roughly the halfway point of the work it was in. Of course, teleporting off-universe was the finale of that half.

All in all, I'm not sure, but it looks like "reset because universe is demonstrably flawed" is your best bet. Maybe you can only save a small selection of beings? Like a few thousand humanoids, angels, and demons? Who knows!

[Slipperychicken]

This is a very good point. I can't let this guy be an angry idiot trying to get petty revenge over something that is pretty much his fault. There must be something else.

I mean, I could see some much more traumatic event* pushing this person's psyche to the breaking point, where he just stops caring and destroys the universe out of spite.


*Losing your girlfriend can certainly be traumatic, though. I'm not saying that it isn't.

[The Rose Dragon]

Yes, he must give them good reasons not to kill him ipso facto. This is the hard part of this: An extreme situation, but a moral choice too, for the players.

Problem: there is no moral choice here but to stop him. When the choice is between everyone dying (without getting a say in the matter) and this one guy not getting his way, he should not be getting his way. The only choice you make is in how to stop him, not whether to stop him or not.

[Lord Raziere]

Simple.

The "good guy" desires the world to be perfect, for all evil to be gone.

and perfection is achieved when there is nothing left to be taken away.

Thus.

Take the world away. Nothing is left. Therefore nothing left to take away from anything.

Perfection in Void.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I think it's important to know whether you want the PCs to fight the Oracle to stop him, or to reason with him.

Also, it'll be important to know when the PCs learn of his plan - but also when they learn his reasons.
Will he monologue / apologise before he throws the switch? Or will they find out some other way?

Assume that the PCs have figured out that the Oracle is going to end reality, and want to stop him.
If the Oracle is going to immediately use his powers (whatever they may be - spells, shotgun, pointed stick...) to prevent any intervention, and ignore the PCs except as adversaries - shooting first, continuing with his plan later - then it doesn't really matter what his motivations are.
He can be as crazy as you like, and his motives as warped as necessary - he's going to kill / incapacitate anyone who gets in his way.
This method requires no sympathy from the players.

BUT - if he can be stopped by reasoning, psycho-analysis, and debate, showing him that he's going too far, that he's become a bad guy... well, that means his reasons need to stand up, and be believable, but that they also need to be refutable.
This method would be helped if his reasons are likely to make him a sympathetic character - if the players can see his point, but disagree with his end decision, then the scene will be more exciting.

Personally, I prefer the idea that he could be talked down. It could - depending on your group - make for an awesomely emotional scene.

[Topus]

I throw an idea, just to put the moral choice under a different point of view.
I don't know what a oracle of time is, if he is a cleric rather than a magician. I was defending a temple so I assume that the oracle of time is serving some kind of deity, related to time (let's call him Chronos). Well, if the oracle is going to do something like undo the creation we had to expect that Chronos agrees with this choice, besides he will prevent him to commit such an execration.
Let's go pantheistic way. The truth is that Chronos is not only a deity of time, he is a shard from a former primeval god. In fact, every god, every human, every sentient being, every soul is made from shards of this former deity (let's call him Unicum).
Before the time the whole reality existed in Unicum, until he decided to create a Universe and to support life. The only way to do this was to shatter his essence into countless shards containing the sparkle of life. In this process his self awareness ceased to exist, diluted into trillions of shards.
But Chronos is a quite unique shard, because he has a sort of memory of who he was before the creation of time. He is the only being in the universe aware of this: every soul is just a little piece of a greater former soul, that sacrificed itself to generate a Universe full of life.
But this memory is bringing great pain to Chronos, he suffer from this departing and is longing for a reunion with his whole essence.
So here is the trigger: during the 10.000 years spell, the old oracle of time somehow discovered this truth and decided to serve Chronos undoing the creation thus regrouping all the existing souls into their former existence.
From a moral point of view, this will wipe every existing self-awareness, but they will not disappear from existence, they simply existed before, into Unicum. This is also the only way, for the old oracle to merge with his girlfriend. Forever. This will also put the new oracle of time in a difficult situation. If he is serving Chronos shouldn't help him in this task? Or he will quit, thus disavowing his faith?
The resolution is that all this plan is made up from the old oracle, who really wanted to ease the pain of Chronos and to meet his girlfriend again, but Chronos is NOT going to allow this, because, yes he is suffering great pain, but he doesn't want to shut down his own creation. If Unicum decided to sacrifice himself to create the Universe, so Chronos is going to bear the pain and maintain the Creation alive. The world is save, everyone has a new sense of brotherood, hugs and gummybears everywhere.

I'm leaving a poem, from Mevlana, that can set up the mood on the pain of being departed:
Now listen to this reed-flute's deep lament
About the heartache being apart has meant:
'Since from the reed-bed they uprooted me
My song's expressed each human's agony,
A breast which separation's split in two
Is what I seek, to share this pain with you:
When kept from their true origin, all yearn
For union on the day they can return.
Among the crowd, alone I mourn my fate,
With good and bad I've learned to integrate,
That we were friends each one was satisfied
But none sought out my secrets from inside;
My deepest seecret's in this song I wail
But eyes and ears can't penetrate the veil:
Body and soul are joined to form one whole
But no one is allowed to see the soul.'
It's fire not just hot air the reed-flute's cry,
If you don't have this fire then you should die!
Love's fire is what makes every reed-flute pine,
Love's fervour thus lends potency to wine;
The reed consoles those forced to be apart,
Its notes will lift the veil upon your heart,
Where's antidote or poison like its song,
Or confidant, or one who's pined so long?
This reed relates a tortuous path ahead,
Recalls the love with which Majnun's heart bled:
The few who hear the truths the reed has sung
Have lost their wits so they can speak this tongue.
The day is wasted if it's spent in grief,
Consumed by burning aches without relief--
Good times have long passed, but we couldn't care
When you're with us, our friend beyond compare!
While ordinary men on drops can thrive
A fish needs oceans daily to survive:
The way the ripe must feel the raw can't tell,
My speech must be concise, and so farewell!

[Passer-by]

All in all, I'm not sure, but it looks like "reset because universe is demonstrably flawed" is your best bet. Maybe you can only save a small selection of beings? Like a few thousand humanoids, angels, and demons? Who knows!

Yes, it seems there are by now three options to consider:
-Destroying the universe is not necessary, just something the old Oracle wants.
-Destroying the universe serves a secondary purpose, like the one I'm going to talk about next.
-Destroying the universe is the universe's only choice.

The thrid one means the characters must agree, or else their world is doomed. This is a downer ending: They fought to save a world and have a future in it, and, in the last session, I tell them the world is doomed anyway. Yes, it is the best excuse to destroy the universe, and completely justifies the Oracle, but then there's no liberum arbitrium, no tragic flaw in the Oracle. All along this NPC knew much more than the PCs, and he's right and if they disagree, they're wrong and living in a doomed world.

So yeah, like you said, it gives him a good motive and goal... but an arbitrary one and leaves no choice for the PCs.

I mean, I could see some much more traumatic event* pushing this person's psyche to the breaking point, where he just stops caring and destroys the universe out of spite.

I think the knowledge of the Things Beyond this world could justify his fear and his actions, in a Lovecraftian way, including the suicidal tendencies.

Problem: there is no moral choice here but to stop him. When the choice is between everyone dying (without getting a say in the matter) and this one guy not getting his way, he should not be getting his way. The only choice you make is in how to stop him, not whether to stop him or not.

Of those three options I considered a few paragraphs above, this totally applies to the first one (crazy genocide for partial reasons, yeah, that's not cool), it doesn't apply to the third one at all (destroying the universe is terrible, but necessary because it is inherently flawed in a terrible way), and it partially applies to the second one.

I've considered everything you have said, and I think you are right about the first option being crazy and impossible to agree with. It will leave no place for discussion, there are no good reasons. Like I said, the third options allows no discussion either, because the Oracle knows a lot more than the new oracle's friends, and is telling them a terrible truth which leaves them with no option but to destroy everything. No moral choice either: We either sacrifice everything and be the heroes because this NPC told us to (this is not satisfactory for anyone), or we do the selfish thing and prevent this because we want to live and to keep adventuring or whatever. So the campaign ends with the heroes choosing their freedom because I made them do it, or not choosing at all.

Is the second one the best option, or is it the first one? My players will say exactly what you are saying: Nope, you are not killing anyone, you crazy guy. No way we're allowing THAT.

Simple.
The "good guy" desires the world to be perfect, for all evil to be gone.
and perfection is achieved when there is nothing left to be taken away.
Thus.
Take the world away. Nothing is left. Therefore nothing left to take away from anything.
Perfection in Void.

This might be the best reasoning behind the first option, and there's just no way my players will even discuss this. I think this one could be part of the reasoning somewhere in the Oracle's speech to convince the players. It's been pointed out that the Oracle should use the character's own pain to make it easier for them to accept world's destruction, and this point doesn't sound that bad once that is done.

Maybe the second one is the best option. Do you think there could be room for discussion if the Oracle had these secondary goals? Such as:

This awesome pantheistic theory

This fits perfectly with what I've already stated during the campaign: The current gods of the campaign world were emanated (in the manichaeist sense) from the God of Light. It's not preposterous to think that this God of light was emanated from another, bigger, older deity, whose existance is known to both the Old Oracle and his master, who actually left the world to see this outer gods. He (both the New Oracle's and the Old Oracle's master, once he comes back) could be the one to explain this to the players, once their PCs have saved the world from the comparatively minor menace the drows are. Big reveal, followed by the other Oracle's somewhat justified Face-heel turn.

Everything you just imagined is awesome, as well as what Deffer, Mucat, Altair and Sergev posted. It will be hard to make the best story out of all of these awesome ideas. Thanks.

PD: That poem is amazing, and it certainly fits the situation. Thanks for sharing.

I think it's important to know whether you want the PCs to fight the Oracle to stop him, or to reason with him...

Yes, this is really important. There must be an actual discussion, for sure. What I'm considering is, like you said, if they should be able to persuade the Oracle. Is this some sort of Malak-Durkon fight scenario, where they talk for a long time, without getting to persuade each other of anything, or is this an actual debate? Is there actual danger, can the Oracle wipe out the PCs easier than they can kill him, or vice-versa?

I need your opinion on this matter. If the Oracle was persuaded not to do the thing, and survived, what would he do with his life? Where is the closure? His death seems like the best option for a sad, yet heroic ending, but shouldn't I allow the players to actually persuade the guy?

I tell you, my players LOVE discussions, and speaking to NPCs that don't agree with them. They will try to persuade them, and I need to be as convincing as they are. In my campaign, it is as important for me to put dangerous fights as it is to make intense conversations full of choices.

Keep the ideas coming, people, or your thoughts on how an actually intense conversation should look like. I mean, it's easy to make an intense fight in an extradimensional space, fighting for existance, but the discussion... it must be as intense, or more.

Should I combine both? A fight through some kind of extradimesional space, where the Oracle tells them about this secret (either something girlfriend-related, like mucat suggested, or Outer Gods related, just like Topus suggested?) as they fight? Or just a looooong discussion that might or might not end in a fight?

If someone could adress this particular point, just like Altair_The_Vexed did, I'll thank him for it.