OOTS #921 - The Discussion Thread

[Amphiox]

Actually, they're lobbyists. Which, admittedly, is all the more reason for distaste at the actions being taken and reason to keep her daughter well away.

But they're still running empires at war where people die... not a safe place for a daughter

A lobbyist is actually a subtype of politician, really. Which is why it is so easier for one to become the other, and vice-versa.

It is interesting to note that Laurin's daughter did plumbing work for the Weeping King. That suggests the possibility that she is in fact living somewhere in or near the Empire of Tears. Which means she is *not* actually physically in a safe place away from empires at war where people die. Particularly when part of the plan entails that the Empire of Tears needs to be regularly overthrown and replaced.

Which implies that Laurin's "away from all this" means more than mere physical location.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

And again we see why V is so often benched. This is Roy's story, how he struggles to overcome events. This is NOT V's story how s/he just blasts everything hir path. Because that would be a dull story indeed...

[aabicus]

Like others in this thread, I'm predicting a "Flight of the Pterosaurs" escape for our heroes.

[Gift Jeraff]

Actually, I'm gonna run with my "Shoulder Pad Guy is more significant than he seems" idea:

Tarquin isn't the official leader of the party. Rather, he pulls their strings like he does with his patsies. Shoulder Pads is the real leader, and this is why he's visibly annoyed when Tarquin is telling them about his empire scheme (he doesn't like being told what to do by a former employee), and why Shoulder Pads isn't involved in Tarquin's latest plot (Tarkie lacks the rank to tell him what to do, esp. if it concerns a personal matter).

[The_Weirdo]

I'd say you can. V isn't evil, despite casting Familicide and disintegrating Kubota. Why would supporting a dictatorship be enough to make Laurin evil?

V cast Familicide in a moment of rage during which V was under the misguided impression that her actions weren't her own, against an undoubtedly Evil dragon that had just threatened and nearly killed V's family in a horrible fashion, not to mention destroying their home.

Laurin routinely, of her own free will, without any emotional distress and under no impression whatsoever that her actions aren't solely her own, in a perfectly calm state of mind, works for and with an empire that oppresses people en masse that never did her any harm, sending other people to their deaths and playing games with the lives of an entire continent.

V cast Familicide once. Laurin does the same before breakfast.

[davidbofinger]

Looks like there's a bit of tension between Team Tarquin.

That's to be expected. They were adventurers together, then went their own separate ways, then Tarquin got them back together, then they lived apart as members of the same team. There's a lot of scope there for people to get their own ideas and out of the habit of following orders.

[Breccia]

"Oh yeah, wizard."

I have SO got to use this!

[orrion]

Wouldn't Chain Lightning have hit the mounts too?

[Ashiver]

So maybe they'll fly away on Pteros, wonder how many crossbow guys are still alive though. That seems risky. Of course they could fly into the rift, but soul destruction is a pretty big risk itself I don't think Roy wants to take no matter what. Tarquin's party certainly isn't going to force that.

Tarquin's situation seems different than how he explained it as well, he doesn't appear to be in charge of all the nations. Simply collaborating them and running one, more like a king of a single nation secretly allied with other nations.
I hope nothing terrible happens to Hannah now, Tarquin seems to be the grudge holding type who hates being defied or even slighted.

[Valanarch]

V cast Familicide in a moment of rage during which V was under the misguided impression that her actions weren't her own, against an undoubtedly Evil dragon that had just threatened and nearly killed V's family in a horrible fashion, not to mention destroying their home.

Laurin routinely, of her own free will, in a perfectly calm state of mind, works for and with an empire that oppresses people en masse that never did her any harm, sending other people to their deaths and playing games with the lives of an entire continent.

V cast Familicide once. Laurin does the same before breakfast.

When did Laurin kill a quarter of a species in an instant? Doing evil acts in retribution does not make them any less evil. If V's actions weren't evil, Laurin's shouldn't be counted as evil either.

[skim172]

Interesting. It appears Team Tarquin is nothing personal, just business. Laurin and Myron do not, it seems, aspire to the same grand goals as Tarky - Laurin's words make me think she might not even be Evil-aligned. Myron discusses profitability, not goals or personal matters.

They're not friends, they're co-workers. This isn't Team Tarquin at all - it's Tarquin & Co., LLP. They're a group of guys who came up with an idea for a joint enterprise that would mutually benefit all of them and they've found success. At most, I'd guess they generally try to minimize conflict. But Tarquin's big dreams are apparently not the group's agenda.

It's like any workplace. You've got that one co-worker who justs wants to make money; for another, this is the one step in an ambitious career plan; still another sees this job as secondary to her real priority, her kids. There's the slacker who doesn't really want to be here, and that one guy who truly loves this job and can't imagine doing anything else.

And c'mon, what workplace doesn't have that one psycho megalomaniac who wants to take over the world? (Usually your supervisor ) I know my last job certainly had a pale undead creature, draped in black, who struck fear in the hearts of everyone he met (usually in a basement room somewhere, wearing a Slayer hoodie, never talks to anyone, and you sometimes wonder if he'll torch the place someday - maybe doesn't drink blood, just gallons of Red Bull).

[EclipseDarkSun]

Laurin might not enjoy doing evil things, but she's no better than neutral - her motivation is like a crime boss wanting his daughter to know nothing about his business and thus neither judge him harshly or be a target for his rivals (or more likely, the police). Doesn't mean that crime boss is even a neutral person overall, let alone good.

[Silva Stormrage]

Really enjoyed reading more into the dynamic, and Laurin has a point. Tarquin pretty much the reason why Mallack died and only because Nale was his son. if someone else tried to kill Malack the would be assassin would be dead 30 times over.

[Ramien]

A lobbyist is actually a subtype of politician, really. Which is why it is so easier for one to become the other, and vice-versa.

It is interesting to note that Laurin's daughter did plumbing work for the Weeping King. That suggests the possibility that she is in fact living somewhere in or near the Empire of Tears. Which means she is *not* actually physically in a safe place away from empires at war where people die. Particularly when part of the plan entails that the Empire of Tears needs to be regularly overthrown and replaced.

Which implies that Laurin's "away from all this" means more than mere physical location.

I read that as being both physically and otherwise away from all this - she did say she wanted a 'good life' for her daughter. I figured the job for the Weeping Key was a one-off, because it would help her daughter's career. But living anywhere near any of the ruled kingdoms isn't what most people would consider 'a good life' and Laurin seems smart enough to know that, which is why I read her as I did.

[Rising Phoenix]

Birds are not related to pterosaurs.

The velociraptors and allosaurus on the ground on the other hand are part the evolutionary radiation that gave rise to birds.

[The_Weirdo]

When did Laurin kill a quarter of a species in an instant? Doing evil acts in retribution does not make them any less evil. If V's actions weren't evil, Laurin's shouldn't be counted as evil either.

I never - EVER - argued that V's actions weren't Evil. V killed a quarter of a species due to low population. Assuming a population of black dragons of 4000, V killed 1000 black dragons - plus countless other beings, yes. We can safely put V's body count in the 2000s. What Tarquin and co. do creates a *lot* more deaths per - say - year than this. That answers the matter of scale, but there's something else you forget.

Habit.

You see, committing one Evil act, even if it's a SERIOUSLY Evil act, doesn't make someone Evil. Committing Evil acts on a daily basis, supporting a regime that kills people, sends soldiers to their deaths and tortures dissidents? Yeah, that does.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd say you can. V isn't evil, despite casting Familicide and disintegrating Kubota. Why would supporting a dictatorship be enough to make Laurin evil?

V is evil. Probably the most evil character in the strip. I don't think even Xykon's in the same order of magnitude for body count.

All her "redemption" crap has been bs, as if she should even be allowed to atone for what she's done, she hasn't even tried very hard. If she were trying to be a better person, she wouldn't have forced the kobold to open up wide and...well, you know what was for dinner. With a blank expression as she off-handedly mentions his mental screams of anguish. Tormenting him to the point where he tried to just commit suicide on the traps of the dungeon in order to be free.

And then, when the order needed her the most, she goes flying off on a big whiny emo pity party, "oh woe is me!" while the OotS gets handed one disaster or calamity after another. Only for V to swoop in and pull a Big Damn Heroes moment after the worst of it (avoiding the all-caster party; smashing the gate; Xykon skirmish and the elemental) is all over -- they were handling the army just fine -- and once again be the center of attention. So much for karma.

[RMS Oceanic]

This reminds me a lot of 854, and reinforces the whole band of equals thing going on.

I'm assuming 922 will be the Order together again for the first time in 80 strips. Will they plan a way out of this? Or maybe the dead horse I'm beating will twitch and Elan's plan will come into play...

[Gift Jeraff]

Birds are not related to pterosaurs.

The velociraptors and allosaurus on the ground on the other hand are part the evolutionary radiation that gave rise to birds.

Pterosaurs are in the same clade as birds, dinosaurs, and all currently living reptiles.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropsida

[EclipseDarkSun]

Good point Rising Phoenix -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterosaur
Pterosaurs (/ˈtɛrɵsɔr/, from the Greek πτερόσαυρος, pterosauros, meaning "winged lizard") were flying reptiles of the clade or order Pterosauria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_birds
Modern phylogenies place birds in the dinosaur clade Theropoda. According to the current consensus, Aves and a sister group, the order Crocodilia, together are the sole living members of an unranked "reptile" clade, the Archosauria.

Hmm.. from the pterosaur wiki article, it links to this which contradicts the above -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropsida
Sauropsida ("lizard faces") is a group of amniotes that includes all existing reptiles and birds and their fossil ancestors. Sauropsida is distinguished from Synapsida, which includes mammals and their fossil ancestors.

Guess he's right after all?

Seems it depends where you draw the line.

[DaggerPen]

A lobbyist is actually a subtype of politician, really. Which is why it is so easier for one to become the other, and vice-versa.

It is interesting to note that Laurin's daughter did plumbing work for the Weeping King. That suggests the possibility that she is in fact living somewhere in or near the Empire of Tears. Which means she is *not* actually physically in a safe place away from empires at war where people die. Particularly when part of the plan entails that the Empire of Tears needs to be regularly overthrown and replaced.

Which implies that Laurin's "away from all this" means more than mere physical location.

It probably does, but I also got the impression that her daughter was living in a more stable area, possibly traveling in now and again for safer jobs to "consult" with her well-connected interior decorator mother, with Mommy in the background making entirely sure that nothing goes wrong.

Birds are not related to pterosaurs.

The velociraptors and allosaurus on the ground on the other hand are part the evolutionary radiation that gave rise to birds.

HE WENT TO ART SCHOOL, OK?

(Also, what Gift Jeraff said.)

[The Giant]

Birds are not related to pterosaurs.

The velociraptors and allosaurus on the ground on the other hand are part the evolutionary radiation that gave rise to birds.

They are absolutely related to pterosaurs. Just not as closely as they are to dinosaurs.

EDIT: Yes, Sauropsida is what I had in mind. All the humans belong to Synapsida, so relative to them, Blackwing and the pteranodons are clade brothers.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Whew - like other posters have mentioned, I was very worried to when I saw the comic title - glad to seeing it was figurative.
Also, love the interaction between Tarquin and acquaintances!

[Amphiox]

Birds are not related to pterosaurs.

Yes, in fact, birds are.

Pterosaurs, crocodylians, dinosaurs and birds, along with a few other weird reptile types, are all part of the Subclass Archosauria.

Blackwing as as closely related to the Pteranodons as the Allosaurs are related to the Pteranodons.

[Amphiox]

V is evil. Probably the most evil character in the strip. I don't think even Xykon's in the same order of magnitude for body count.

If you read SoD, you'll note that Xykon's personal kill-count is very likely in the tens of thousands.

If anything, it is V is not in the same order of magnitude as Xykon.

[The_Weirdo]

Yes, in fact, birds are.

Pterosaurs, crocodylians, dinosaurs and birds, along with a few other weird reptile types, are all part of the Subclass Archosauria.

Blackwing as as closely related to the Pteranodons as the Allosaurs are related to the Pteranodons.

Something else to bear in mind is as follows: Blackwing is no paleontologist. If he were wrong about this one thing, that wouldn't exactly make us go "WHAT????!!!1!!ONE!".

[davidbofinger]

Laurin routinely, of her own free will, in a perfectly calm state of mind, works for and with an empire that oppresses people en masse that never did her any harm, sending other people to their deaths and playing games with the lives of an entire continent.

If Laurin were, say, lawful neutral, she might have bought into Tarquin's claim that this is the only way to stop the constant warfare. We don't know enough about her.

It depends strongly on what definition of evil alignment you're using. If I can trust Wikipedia then the 3rd edition definition is:

• Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
• Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others.
  
  1. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if
     
     1. doing so is convenient or
     2. if it can be set up.
  2. Others actively pursue evil, killing
     
     1. for sport or
     2. out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.

Tarquin qualifies as Type 1A and 2A evil (not sure what 1B means).

We don't know enough about Laurin to evaluate her for Type 1; Laurin perhaps qualifies as Type 2B evil, but again we don't know her motives well enough. In any case it's not as clear cut as Tarquin.

Miron probably qualifies as Type 1A, maybe 2A, maybe 2B.

Jacinda seems fairly clearly 2A and 2B, may qualify on Type 1 as well.

The greatest deficiency in this definition of evil is Type 2B - it makes the evilness of the person depend, not on their actions or motives, but on the alignment of their master. I believe someone (Roy?) made a very similar criticism of the paladin code depending on the actions of those you travel with.

[darlingt]

Whew! I was so afraid when I saw the title. Then again, I just finished A Storm of Swords, so I was expecting something unexpectedly tragic.

V's got such good timing, doesn't ve?

[137beth]

Laurin is awesome. So is V.

Now how will the V-haters keep arguing that V is a hindrance to the party? Eh, they'll probalby just make excuses about how casting chain lightning doesn't count for some reason.

[RMS Oceanic]

Also I liked V's continued acknowledgement of their situation with the never feeling safe line.