Large and very large changes to D&D

[ambu]

Recently, I started a moderately successful thread about small changes being made to DnD to make it somewhat better. Well, I decided that we should get more ambitious coming the new year and thing big:

What BIG changes would you inflict on DnD to make it better? Would you change the core classes? Which ones? What would you do to the feat system? How would you change spellcasting?

Let's revamp DnD! Let them say of us "Never so many wer obliged to so few!" We will deign in the air, we will design in the sea, we shall never surrender!

And now I will start.

Spellcasting:This is where most of the problems start. Why is the wizard overpowered? Is it specific spells or specific combinations? Do we need to check is spell one by one or just ban some spells and be done with it? Maybe the suggestion of Monte Cook about specific paths that are inherent and non changeable and a small number of spells to be chosen afterwards? What about the clerics(also see below)?

Classes: If we take care of the wizard, what must we do with the other classes? My take is :
1)The fighter has to be somewhat rewritten. I have proposed a change http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30383
but I like Bears' take too
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30692

2) The bard needs a slight power up, such as the one presented below, which is NOT my idea, but Mr. Nexx's and with which I agree:

• Remove the table "Bard Spells Known". Bards may know as many spells as they can learn; they learn two spells from the Bard spell list every time they gain a new spell level. They are still spontaneous casters, limited to the Bard spell list, and keep no spellbook. Learning a Bard spell from a scroll is a Spellcraft check equivalent to a wizard's (15+spell level). Learning a spell from a scroll that was scribed by a non-bard requires a Perform check of (15+spell level) before the Spellcraft check can be attempted. Failure on either ruins the scroll. Learning a spell from another Bard requires both to make Perform checks equal to 15+spell level. If they both use the same Perform skill, then there is a +2 bonus.

• Bardic Knowledge no longer necessarily gains a synergy bonus from Knowledge: History. Rather, it gains a synergy bonus from any relevant knowledge skill. It also gains a synergy bonus from Gather Information.

• Bardic Music. Bardic Music may be used a number of times per day equal to Level + Charisma Modifier. At 1st level, a bard gains the abilities of Fascinate, Countersong, and a choice of one of the following.

Inspire Courage (music bonus to AC, temporary HP, and save vs. fear)
Inspire Competence (music bonus to skills, hit, saves vs. confusion)
Another may be selected at 3rd, 9th, and 15th at which time these two are also available.
Inspire Heroics (music bonus to hit, AC, and temporary HP)
Inspire Greatness (music bonus to hit, damage, and saves)
Each of the inspire powers gains +1 at Bard level 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19, provided they also have a Perform skill of 3 times the bonus (so a 3 at level 1, a 6 at level 4, a 9 at level 7, etc). They last for as long as the bard is able to perform, which is 5 rounds per point of Constitution bonus (minimum 5 rounds) for vocal performances, or 10 rounds minutes per point of Constitution bonus for instrumental performances (minimum 10 rounds), and for five rounds thereafter. At the end of the duration, a bard may renew them as a free action, but with the cost of another daily use of Bardic Music. Bardic Music benefits apply to all the bard considers allies who can hear the bard.

At levels 6, 12, and 18, Bards also gain the following types of Bardic Music:
6th - Suggestion - as PHB
12th - Song of Freedom - as PHB
18th - Mass Suggestion - as PHB

New Feat: Sound Spike [Bardic]
Prerequisites: Bardic Music class ability, Perform (vocal or instrument type) rank 6
By expending a daily use of Bardic music, the bard is able to create a close-range cone that inflicts the bard's Perform check in sonic damage (reflex half), and forces a Fortitude save (equal to damage taken) to avoid being deafened. You may not take 10 on this Perform check. This is a standard action which provokes an attack of opportunity.

3) The cleric uses the cloistered cleric variant of UA, the druid the shapechange variant of PHII. I believe that makes them quite OK.

4) The paladin becomes the true fighting force of the church. He becomes a champion like figure, the true fighting cleric. He must have the alignment of his patron and promote the ideals of his faith. He becomes much more cleric-like. How? Maybe spellcasting early on? Maybe more abilities based on charisma? What?

5) The sorcerer gets 4 skill points and the feat progression of the mage. remember, if we tamper with the spells, he gets hurt too. Maybe even d6?

Feats: Maybe scaling feats a la Iron Heroes are in order? Maybe we should check each individual feat, like Sean K. Reynolds did? Merge, delete or create new?

Miscellaneous: All other changes you believe are in order. No alignment? Psionics as core? Binders?

[Ephraim]

Here are some of the big changes that I would make to D&D. In addition to those, I would force all casting classes to pay attention to at least two mental attributes...
Bonus Spells: INT for Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard
Save DC: WIS for Clerics and Druids; CHA for Sorcerers and Wizards
Maximum Spell Level: INT for Wizards; WIS for Clerics and Druids; CHA for Sorcerers

[Maglor_Grubb]

I would be careful with giving bards more bardic music uses... There a plenty of feats to use it for other things than bardic music, and with too many, this can easely be broken. A bard focussing on crowd-control spellcasting could easily be a lot better in it than a sorcerer or even a wizard. Pumped cha= higher DC's+ more bardic music uses, which can also be used to heighten the DC's of your spells? Make all your buffs persistent without it taking a higher slot with bardic music uses? A 10th level bard with 24 charisma would have 17 uses of bardic music a day. Seven! teen! Uses you can substitute for level increases with metamagic, use to gain damage reduction, pump the DC of your spells, pump the useage of your normal bardic music, etcetera. No, bard's are fine, as long as they can use their bardic music for more usefull things than bardic music. So I say, give them a free bardic music feat every 6 levels or so.

[Tokiko Mima]

I'd revise the way spell casters get spells to eliminate confusion when multiclassing with Ranger, Paladin, or Bard.

Make it so there is only three different types of spell classes: Arcane, Divine Clerical and Divine Natural. Both the Divine magics cap out at level 7 or 8 (whichever playtests better) and this would be reflected by their basic spell lists ending at that level.

There are only two different spells/day charts, and they depend on whether you're a spontaneous caster (Sorcerer/Favored Soul) or prepared (Wizard/Cleric/Druid). It doesn't matter what class of magic you use, the spells/day you get are the same as any other spontaneous or prepared caster.

Now, instead of having the spells/day listed in the description all you get is +1 spell level, just like the system for Prestige classes gaining spell levels works. Clerics and druids would miss a spell level every four or five levels (playtest) and instead get a nice feature instead, like Wildshape for Druids, or bonus domain spell slots or Domains for Clerics.

Wizards and Clerics would all be locked in as prepared casters only. Sorcerers and Bards would likewise only have the option of casting spontaneously, obviously. Paladins, Rangers and Druids would enjoy the option of choosing at their first spell level what flavor spellcaster they would be. They could also switch at their discretion, but have to start back at spell level 1 for the other flavor.

The nice part about this change is what it allows you to do with Paladins that multiclass to Clerics or Rangers that multiclass Druid: They can apply their Ranger/Paladin spell casting levels to their Druid/Cleric spells. Their spell progression would be every other level they accrue a +1 spell level, so they would always be weaker but they could gain directly by taking another class. In the case of Bards, they would get spontaneous Arcane spells just like before, but get spell levels three out of every four levels.

Certain classes would still grant knowledge of particular spells. Some Bard-only spells for example would require Bard levels to add to your spell list and likewise with some Paladin and Ranger only spells. Some spells (not nearly as many as their are now) would also be off limits to all but Sorcerers/Wizards/Druids/Clerics.

Prestige classes for Divine Clerical and Divine Natural casters would all be required NOT to have +1 spell level at level 1, and be missing 1 or 2 more spell levels spread evenly if they formally had full spell levels.

Using this revised system would make balancing and generating high level casters much easier, and remove some of the bizarre clunkiness found in Gish builds. Ideally, I would like to base class features that improve by class level off of this system by including systems for classes that don't cast spells at all but I think this is a good start.

[MrNexx]

2) The bard needs a slight power up, such as the one presented below, which is NOT my idea, but I cannot remember where I got it. Sorry!

I recognize it well enough.

http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/7951.html

[ambu]

Thank you MrNexx, I will edit the post now! Maybe you can even answer Maglor's concerns?

[Caewil]

For Paladins, an emphasis on smiting. Make it something like the blast shapes, etc that warlocks can apply to their eldritch blasts. So smiting would have variations.

[MrNexx]

I would be careful with giving bards more bardic music uses... There a plenty of feats to use it for other things than bardic music, and with too many, this can easely be broken. A bard focussing on crowd-control spellcasting could easily be a lot better in it than a sorcerer or even a wizard.

Bards, at best, have 5 spells known per level, and selects from a far smaller list from the sorcerer/wizard list. He lacks the breadth of spell knowledge to be better than a sorcerer, much less a wizard, who put his mind to being a crowd controller.

Bardic music uses can only be used to further heighten the DC of spells (or otherwise metamagic spells) if the bard in question spends a feat to do so. And, as others have pointed out, the divine metacheese cleric is a broken application of the cleric... why shouldn't the singing metacheese bard be regarded as any less broken, but a perfectly reasonable modification to a bard's central feature be made because someone MIGHT abuse it? If you're going to change the bard, CHANGE him, then ban the things that break the game, such as singing/divine metacheese.

No, bard's are fine, as long as they can use their bardic music for more usefull things than bardic music. So I say, give them a free bardic music feat every 6 levels or so.

I disagree that Bards are fine; I think they're crippled by an unclear concept of what they wanted to make, leaving them stuck between a jack-of-all-trades and a magical musician, which left them with jack-of-all -magic stuck to a musician.

[Valairn]

On the smiting thing, you can't just have it be smite "opposite alignment" either. It has be something that is useful, after all even two lawful good characters can be completely and utterly opposed to each other.

Generally speaking, feats need a lot of work, fighters get a whole bunch of them, and most of them suck, which is part of the reason why fighters suck is cause while they get to take a lot of feats, none of them really help enough to kick them into that oooooooo nice level.

[ambu]

Thanks to all for your time! I am glad so many people contribute. How about we focus a little more (just a suggestion):
-What about the bard that Mr. Nexx proposes? I believe it is fine. Mr. Nexx, would you consider finalizing it, listing all changes/bans etc etc?
- What feats should we change? How? Let us be specific!
-Anyone care to take on the paladin? I would, but I am very inexperienced in playing one.

[ken-do-nim]

I think it was Bears with Lasers who proposed that bardic music can be started as a swift action. What isn't addressed by all these changes is the fun factor. A number of us have found that playing bards means starting bardic music at least every 2 out of 3 rounds. Once you've got inspire greatness, there's always someone that wants that boost. Then every 5 rounds inspire courage runs out. You know how no one wants to play the "healing b*tch cleric"? Well playing a bard can get similar. You've got some really cool abilities that you want to use against your enemies (song of discord being the best), but you get stuck boosting.

[heroe_de_leyenda]

When I first read "big changes" I thought we'd go more "system-wise", not just making changes for a Dnd 3.59. So... I would make some big changes:

-First: the alignment system! I know what they say about being just guidelines and stuff, but I do feel it does limit you and makes you act less spontaneously. Maybe the concepts of good, evil law and chaos could be well difined to 'know' where you move.

-Then... Ranged attacks! (At least proyectile weapons) Theres NO WAY you could fire 5 arrows (at different targets) in 6 seconds! I was thinking of a way you could get less attacks with bows, etc but thy could be more effective... Maybe get just a second attack at BAB +11 and get extra d6s or d8s at 6ft and 16th levels. With rapid shot you could get one adittional attack and that's it, 3 shots per roud tops!
1-5 level One attack, normaly
6-10 levels: One attack that delas 2d6 or 2d8
11-15 levels, Two attacks, the second at BAB-10 dealind 2d6 or 2d8
16-20 levels, Two attacks deal 3d6 or 3d8
+1 attack if using rapid shot
Or any other way that could give it more realism!

Next... Arcane Magic: yes,it's too powerful at high levels and too lame at lower levels

I can't think of anything else right now, but I think Major changes are more than just balancing existing classes

[ambu]

Well, this IS what bards excel at... But if you do not want to, don't !

[ambu]

I agree Heroe. I even agree about the alignment thing. But that seems what most want to discuss, as it seems. Let's try again:
- The wizard spells just need rewriting case by case or does the whole magic system needs reworking, you believe? Maybe just some things banned?

[Kantur]

The Paladin...Hmm, thinking off the top of my head here partly...
What about something like:

Paladins no longer need to be LG, instead they must match the alignment of their Deity.

HD: D8

Skill Points as a paladin currently gets.
Class Skills: As current Paladin

BAB: 2/3 levels, as Cleric table

Saves: Good Fortitude and Will, poor Reflex saves.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Bonus Feat: At first level a Paladin gains Weapon Focus with their deity's favoured weapon.

Smite Opponent: A Paladin may call upon their Deity against any foe who's attacking them. As Smite Good/Evil currently but without restrictions on who it can be used against with one obvious exception; other followers of that Deity. Number per day as current progression.

Lay on Hands, Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Divine Grace: As current

Turn Undead, Special Mount: One level later

Code of Conduct: Unless for a very, very, very good reason, a Paladin will never associate with those who are followers of deity's who're enemies with their own, or with those of completely opposed alignment. (E.g. LG Paladin won't associate with CE, but may with CG or LE - but I doubt they'll be too trusting of the latter two...)

Spells:
Remove Disease is gone as an innate power.
The current Paladin spell list/progression is gone, instead at every level wholly divisible by 3, and the one before that level (so 2,3,5,6,8,9,11,12,etc), the Paladin gains a spellcasting level as if they were a Cleric, including Domain slots. (So a 12th level Paladin would have the spells per day and spell list of an 8th level Cleric) If a Paladin multiclasses as a Cleric, these levels stack. (So a Paladin 12/Cleric 3 would have the spells per day and spell list of an 11th level Cleric). If a Paladin multiclasses with any other divine caster class (alignment permitting of course) these levels do not stack.
A Paladin's caster level counts as their equivalent Cleric level.
A Paladin's spell casting attribute is now Charisma.
A Paladin may only cast spells containing the Good, Evil, Law or Chaos descriptor if their alignment matches the descriptor.

Ex-Paladins:
A Paladin who loses their deity's favour (See Losing Favour) loses all Paladin benefits (Including benefits from Domains) apart from BAB, Skills and Saving throws (Though the Charisma Bonus is lost).
They also lose all spell-casting abilities as a Cleric if they multiclassed to Cleric.
They must atone before a deity will even consider accepting them as a Paladin again, and once they atone enough, they lose two levels of Paladin and regain their lost abilities only after gaining another level of Paladin.

Losing Favour:
A Paladin can lose favour in favious ways:
Turning away from their deity (Including becoming a Cleric of another, even if identically aligned, deity)
Falling out of their deity's alignment by even one step.
Acting in accordance of the views of a wholly opposite deity, even once. (E.g. CG Paladin acts like LE) Unless under a mind-affecting spell or compulsion that force them to act that way. Thoughts don't affect this, though obviously acting upon them will (E.g. Lawful Anything's family member's been murdered and thoughts of delivering person revenge don't make a Paladin lose favour, actually doing it would however).


Thoughts?

[heroe_de_leyenda]

Maybe I'm flying off too high or too far here, but I think it would be nice if (Insppired in Video games and the like -RPGs or even adventure ones) but in general "fighters" and "wizards" should have roughly the same power, balanced in each level. The difference could reside in that "fighters" do phisycal damage, are very armored, etc. "Wizards" do more "elemental damge, and have a variety of exotic efects. But this overall power should match in every level... not having lame weaking mages at low level and demigods at levels 15+!!!
Maybe having a rechargeable MP (Magic point) system could work, spells could be nerfed, but maybe you could cast them more often... and stuff like that.
In a world of magic, maybe fighters could perform awesome martial-oriented powers, like limits of Final Fantasy, Special attacks from Guilty Gear or Samurai Showdown games, etc.

I mean... if you face a High level wizard you get blown up right away with aaaall his prepared spells for the day thrown at you at once, while the evil fighter stil,l has four attcks per round and could take out someone in one or two rounds... but... the partys wizard already neutralized him with a will save spell opr something! Something should be done. I just don't know what exactly

[Neo]

You could try tie it into Con somehow, under the idea of magical wear and tear. A few worlds, mostly in books, have it that after you use magic you need to rest and recover from the exertion of casting.

Something like a number of spells/spell levels equal to your Con score/modifier per encounter or until you need to rest for X rounds.

Just an idea, haven't really thought it through.

[Jades]

Unlimited Spells.

But it is a Spellcraft Check to cast them.

Far range adds 15 to the check.
30' AOE, +6
Fire Damage +5
5d6 Damage, +15

Spellcraft DC for your basic fireball would be 41. If it is written in a Wizard's spellbook, he gets 10 taken from the DC. 31.

Now, we change the components to being optional.

Verbal Component, reduced DC by 5
Somantic Component, -5
Pinch of Bat Guano, -1. (1/2 of gp value rounded up)

DC 20 to cast a fireball if it is in your spellbook, and you use components. Theoretically, a first level wizard could pull it off 60% of the time (+4 INT, +4 ranks, Skill Focus (Spellcraft)), but to counterspell, all you need to do is beat their DC.

Maybe make certain components feats. Elemental Attunement - allows you to add elemental descriptors to your spells. Ranged Spell - allows you to give your spells ranges other than touch.


this could also allow other classes to take a feat and gain the ability to cast spells, as long as they have ranks in Spellcraft.

[ambu]

Kantur I really like your built! Very nice. I would consider though tying the spells to Charisma. So as not to have MAD.

[Kantur]

Admittedly I had been thinking that, but, in the SRD at least, (Still waiting for Amazon to deliver my core books) Paladins already ue Wisdom for spells, though I suppose looking at it again it was probably to boost their will save really...Yeah, Charisma might be better for it in retrospect.

[Valairn]

A Paladin's spell casting attribute is Wisdom.

I do have a thought on that particular item. I know this would lean paladins power even more into their charisma, but ultimately I think Charisma should be the Paladin's casting stat. After all a Paladin doesn't need to be wise, he needs to be strong and courageous and have the force of personality to do what he's told more or less. Clerics are wise, Paladin's are the metal arms not the thinking caps.

So I think for the new Pally I think it would be more appropriate if his casting stat was Charisma, other than that Kantur, I really like the class.

[Valairn]

Unlimited Spells.

But it is a Spellcraft Check to cast them.

Far range adds 15 to the check.
30' AOE, +6
Fire Damage +5
5d6 Damage, +15

Spellcraft DC for your basic fireball would be 41. If it is written in a Wizard's spellbook, he gets 10 taken from the DC. 31.

Now, we change the components to being optional.

Verbal Component, reduced DC by 5
Somantic Component, -5
Pinch of Bat Guano, -1. (1/2 of gp value rounded up)

DC 20 to cast a fireball if it is in your spellbook, and you use components. Theoretically, a first level wizard could pull it off 60% of the time (+4 INT, +4 ranks, Skill Focus (Spellcraft)), but to counterspell, all you need to do is beat their DC.

Maybe make certain components feats. Elemental Attunement - allows you to add elemental descriptors to your spells. Ranged Spell - allows you to give your spells ranges other than touch.


this could also allow other classes to take a feat and gain the ability to cast spells, as long as they have ranks in Spellcraft.

I like this idea and we should expand upon it. Part of the reason magic is so god awful powerful in the game is that it NEVER fails, unless counterspelled. The mage is always successful at casting it, even if he may be stopping time, or reshaping the very universe, meh he's too good to fail. Spell casting should be hard, at least if its as powerful as it is now, it should be hard.

[Kantur]

The Paladin's now had that minor edit to Charisma based casting. It does make sence for the class after all...

[ambu]

So Bard is done, Paladin is done. Only spellcasting remains! And I found this great thread about feats:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761528

[Golthur]

- The wizard spells just need rewriting case by case or does the whole magic system needs reworking, you believe? Maybe just some things banned?

Option B - the magic system needs a substantial rewrite. Here are the problems as I see them:

• Magic never fails (as mentioned by Jades, above).
  
• Too many save-or-lose and save-or-die spells that are way, way, way too effective. This is compounded by most classes having two bad saves, and by the ease with which a caster can increase their save DCs.
  
• Too many spells that eliminate the need for skills - making the rogue obsolete. The core spell list establishes the precedent that low level spells can completely replace all rogue skills (e.g. knock, spider climb, invisibility, etc.). Ditto for social skills (charm person, etc.). Things like flight and teleportation should be much higher level than they currently are.
  
• The arbitrary "4 encounters" balancing vs. all other classes just plain doesn't work. If given the opportunity, all casters will rest between encounters - and it's difficult to always enforce the 4-encounter limit without being cheesy. Balancing it at 4 encounters also makes PvP (or credible fighter bad guys) not work.
  
• Too much dependency on a single ability score. Casters need MAD in a bad way. As it is, a wizard can boost their Intelligence through the roof, and gain bonus spells, higher DCs, etc., etc. all with one ability boost. Same with divine casters and Wisdom, or sorcerers and Charisma.
  
• Exponential power increase of primary casters, as opposed to the linear power increase of most other classes.

[Matthew]

That sounds about right to me. A very slow Magic Point restoration rate is how I handled the rest thing. Either 1 per day per level or a flat 1-3 per day.

[krossbow]

Heres one thing I like: take action points from D20 modern, and then change them slightly so they refill daily. Call them "hero points" or something.

(Action points let you add 1d6 to any roll at any time you wish when used--limit one per round-, and fuel other abilities)

have them refill each day, and everyone gets a number each day equal to their level +3.

Use them to fuel things liek smiting, evasion, spells that are considered broken, ect.



But yeah, magic is the main problem.

[Golthur]

That sounds about right to me. A very slow Magic Point restoration rate is how I handled the rest thing. Either 1 per day per level or a flat 1-3 per day.

I did similarly (setting my healing and mana recovery rates around the same), but I also cut the active mana pool down to a small size (limiting spells per encounter to either a small number of very high level spells, or more lower level ones). This keeps PvP balanced in a single fight.

Then, to give "staying power", I allow casters to recover their mana from a mana pool (and I allow the same for vitality and a vitality pool) outside of combat. This gives everyone a few encounters before they need rest.

[Caewil]

Meh, for most of my games, I ban arcane spellcasting. Psionics are just much more balanced and IMO, fun.

[ambu]

I do not know if the 'magic could fail' fix is better. With the spells as they are that means that the wizard could be awesome most of the time and useless in other times. It could be better if he could always contribute but not with so much power. That would entail:
- A mechanism like "All damage dealing spells are ranged attacks. If they miss, roll for splash"
-The rewriting of "Save or..." spells. But if most classes had better saves, this would solve itself, wouldn't it?
-The banning of all things broken, as proven by experience.