Making of the Tiefling an LA +0 race

[Tough_Tonka]

A player of mine really wants to play a plane touched namely a tiefling. But she really hates the level adjustment and wants to know if she can downplay the tiefling into a LA +0 race.

What kind of adjustments do you think could make a tiefling a LA +0.

Just take away the darkness spell-like ability, and energy resistance?

Should I take away anything else?

[Jades]

+1 Dex, +1 Int, -2 Cha
Lowlight Vision 60 feet
+2 on Bluff and Hide

[Draco Ignifer]

Cut either the intelligence or the dexterity bonus. LA +0 races shouldn't have nets to stats. If you follow the WotC school of thought, which states that Charisma doesn't balance out any main stat, then cut dexterity and make 'em connivers. I'd let 'em keep darkness, though... a once-per-day spell-like ability isn't that powerful.

[Caewil]

She can LA buyout at level 3. It's not that much of a big deal.

[Necomancer]

jades has a decent idea but generaly all races avoid a odd number bonus to stats. I'd make it +2 int myself and take out the dex.

[Zincorium]

+1 Dex, +1 Int, -2 Cha
Lowlight Vision 60 feet
+2 on Bluff and Hide

Agreed with Necomancer. There are no odd stat racial modifiers to any race in D&D, even monstrous races are set up to be even. Why? because a +1 doesn't make a significant difference, either for the individual or a population. Tieflings with an 11 average intelligence aren't any brighter than the average human. Best to just give the intelligence bonus and remove the dex (because dex is 'worth' more than cha according to WotC).

[Cybren]

Agreed with Necomancer. There are no odd stat racial modifiers to any race in D&D, even monstrous races are set up to be even. Why? because a +1 doesn't make a significant difference, either for the individual or a population. Tieflings with an 11 average intelligence aren't any brighter than the average human. Best to just give the intelligence bonus and remove the dex (because dex is 'worth' more than cha according to WotC).

Well in 3.5 D&D.

[Pegasos989]

No outsider race should have LA of +0, unless you ban all spells similar to alter self, etc... Also remember that as an outsider, he gets profiency with all martial weapons...

I would say that let him play a human and roleplay it as planetouched.

[cupkeyk]

The outsider type gives him immunities to all sorts of stuff that low level things can't get past, like charm person, reduce person and hold person, basically anything that normally target humanoids. I say give her darkvision and the outsider type OR the ability adjustments +2 Dex, -2 Cha and the humanoid type.

Hehehe, alterself gives him vastly better options than a humanoid.

[Shazzbaa]

I thought the WotC website actually had a +0 LA version of Aasimars... do they also have Tieflings?

[Pegasos989]

The outsider type gives him immunities to all sorts of stuff that low level things can't get past, like charm person, reduce person and hold person, basically anything that normally target humanoids. I say give her darkvision and the outsider type OR the ability adjustments +2 Dex, -2 Cha and the humanoid type.

Hehehe, alterself gives him vastly better options than a humanoid.

Yeah, it doesn't need trying to abuse to get that but if you do try to abuse and DM doesn't say no...
*cough*Dwarven ancestral..., +18 natural armor*cough*


But I think that cupkeyk has a nice idea.

Darkvision + outsider
or
+2 dex, -2 cha, humanoid. Though I think this one need something more, possibly extra feat (so it is a human with ability adjustments instead of skillpoints. This might go slightly over the top, though.)

[Grim Greyscale]

I thought the WotC website actually had a +0 LA version of Aasimars... do they also have Tieflings?

A-yup.

Spoiler

Show

Tiefling Base Racial Features

All of the following are base racial abilities for the tiefling.

Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.

Outsider Type: Tieflings are native outsiders, so they are vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but immune to effects that target other types. For example, a tiefling would be subject to the extra damage from an outsider bane sword but immune to hold person, since that spell affects only humanoids.

Size: Tieflings are Medium size.

Speed: Tiefling base land speed is 30 feet.

Darkvision (Ex): A tiefling has darkvision to a 60-foot range.

Lesser Darkness (Sp): Once per day, the tiefling may use an effect similar to darkness (caster level equals tiefling's character level), except that the radius is 5 feet. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.

Skill Bonuses: A tiefling has a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.

Resistances (Ex): A tiefling starts play with resistance 2 to cold, electricity, and fire.

Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.

Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass tiefling's rogue class does not count when determining whether an experience point penalty applies.

From here: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

[Pegasos989]

I thought the WotC website actually had a +0 LA version of Aasimars... do they also have Tieflings?

I have seen some lesser aasimar like that somewhere and those should get la +1, atleast compared to poor hobgoblins...


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a has savage progressions of the planetouched.

EDIT: Grim limecat ninjaed

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

No outsider race should have LA of +0, unless you ban all spells similar to alter self, etc... Also remember that as an outsider, he gets profiency with all martial weapons...

I would say that let him play a human and roleplay it as planetouched.

Aasimar and Tieflings aswell as any other outsider without actual outsider HD do not automatically gain simple and martial weapon proficiency. They gain proficiency according to thier classes alone.

[Pegasos989]

Aasimar and Tieflings aswell as any other outsider without actual outsider HD do not automatically gain simple and martial weapon proficiency. They gain proficiency according to thier classes alone.

Can you give me a rules quote about that? All I know s that they have outsider type and outsider type in SRD describes "Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry."

Is somewhere a general entry telling that you do not gain benefit of your type unless you have HD of it? O.o

[lidmith]

I lent out my monster manual, so I can't check, but aren't Tieflings somewhat screwed compared to Asimars?

I mean, just on stats alone, Tieflings have a penalty to cha, and 2 bonus stats, but Asimars have just the 2 bonus stats, right?

If I'm running, no more penalty stat: game mechanics shouldn't be racist. That is to say, just because most members of a race are evil, doesn't mean they should have worse stats. And if they do, lower the lvl adjustment.

[Thomas]

Lesser Planetouched (includes tieflings, aasimar, and genasi) are in the back of Player's Guide to Faerûn. The only change is that their type is Humanoid instead of Outsider.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I lent out my monster manual, so I can't check, but aren't Tieflings somewhat screwed compared to Asimars?

I mean, just on stats alone, Tieflings have a penalty to cha, and 2 bonus stats, but Asimars have just the 2 bonus stats, right?

If I'm running, no more penalty stat: game mechanics shouldn't be racist. That is to say, just because most members of a race are evil, doesn't mean they should have worse stats. And if they do, lower the lvl adjustment.

Yes, Aasimar have better stats modifiers in one sense but there's more to it. Dexterity and Intelligence have uses for every character. Dexterity ups armour class and a saving throw while intelligence gives you skillpoints. Everybody needs armour class and benifits from skill points. Comparitively wisdom only affects saving throw while charisma has no real use (it helps skills but so do all the others). If your an Aasimar cleric, Sorcerer, Bard or Paladin you have a significant bonus but otherwise Tieflings are so much better. The Aasimar is very good and does excel in his favoured class but the Tiefling excels in all classes except those the Paladin needs to take to be worth it..

Also the Aasimar's light ability is poor compared to Darkness. One is an offensive ability while the other is a conveniance ability.

[Gorbad the Limb Rippa]

They have got "lesser" races in players guid to faerun,which gives you a bunch of no LA races
eg:no La drow,duregar,svirvfneblin,and plane touched

[stainboy]

I love Planescape, and I hate level adjustments, so I had to come up with rules for this. This may not be what you're looking for - I house-ruled a few changes beyond what was necessary just to bring their LA down. But anyway, here's how I do tieflings:

Race: Tieflings are humanoids. However, they are affected as evil outsiders by any effect which specifically affects evil outsiders, unless that effect would transport the target to his native plane or plane of origin.

Ability Scores: No modifiers. (The Int bonus is the only racial ability tieflings have that absolutely requires a LA, so it has to go. The Strength penalty makes no sense - there are plenty of strong fiends out there. The Charisma penalty is even worse - why does demonic heritage make someone less qualified to be a sorcerer or a warlock?)

Resistances: Fire/Cold Resistance 5. +2 to saves vs poison.

Darkvision: 60'.

Fiendish Heritage: Tieflings receive one bonus feat at character creation, which can be spent on any of the following:

-A +1 natural armor bonus
-Natural claw weapons, dealing 1d4 damage each (2 claws)
-Electrical or acid resistance 5
-A prehensile tail, which grants +2 to Sleight of Hand checks and allows the character to hold and manipulate small objects even when both hands are occupied. (Uses depend on player creativity. Basically just including this because Annah from Torment had it.)
-The ability to cast one of the following spells once per day: Darkness, Charm Person, Hypnotism, Burning Hands, Disguise Self, Chill Touch, Spider Climb, Shatter. CL half character level, save DC 12 + Charisma modifier. (Other spells from other sourcebooks available as the DM sees fit.)
-Any of the following feats: Agile, Deceitful, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Stealthy.
-Anything else the DM deems appropriate.

(Back when I played 2e Planescape we used some sourcebook that let tieflings choose a power from a list rather than just giving them all Darkness. I like that, so I did something similar.

Favored Class: Warlock. (If you're not using the warlock class, go with rogue or sorcerer. I don't use the favored class rule so I never put much thought into this.)

Level Adjustment: +0

[Closet_Skeleton]

The Strength penalty makes no sense - there are plenty of strong fiends out there.

That would be because they don't have one.

Choice of abilities is a good idea, Fey'ri get it and they always seemed like a much more thought out kind of planetouched. I might personally decide to randomise it rather than let players choose though. Your ones look quite balanced.

In my personaly campaign setting a Tiefling is just a human who chooses the Wild Talent feat as their first level bonus feat, but that only works if demons are the source of all psionics in your campaign. The idea of a Tiefling feat isn't so bad since the abyssal heritige feats in Hordes of the Abyss does a similar thing.

[Necomancer]

A-yup.

Spoiler

Show

Tiefling Base Racial Features

All of the following are base racial abilities for the tiefling.

Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.

Outsider Type: Tieflings are native outsiders, so they are vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but immune to effects that target other types. For example, a tiefling would be subject to the extra damage from an outsider bane sword but immune to hold person, since that spell affects only humanoids.

Size: Tieflings are Medium size.

Speed: Tiefling base land speed is 30 feet.

Darkvision (Ex): A tiefling has darkvision to a 60-foot range.

Lesser Darkness (Sp): Once per day, the tiefling may use an effect similar to darkness (caster level equals tiefling's character level), except that the radius is 5 feet. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.

Skill Bonuses: A tiefling has a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.

Resistances (Ex): A tiefling starts play with resistance 2 to cold, electricity, and fire.

Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.

Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass tiefling's rogue class does not count when determining whether an experience point penalty applies.

From here: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

...Thats...not a LA+0. Too powerful for a LA+0. The type alone is worth a LA, then the resistances (2 in one energy type I can see, but three?).

I'd say use this except get rid of the resistance and outsider type. Change it to humanoid. They won't be a outsider mechanicly anymore but you can still say they are one in game.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Point 1: They have to be outsiders, not only because it isn't too powerful for an LA +0 (See Neraphs and Spikers from Planar Handbook) but because that's a vital part of their flavor. This is the difference between a Tiefling and a Human with the Fiendish Heritage Feat.

Point 2: Dex and Charisma don't balance. Just check the DMG; Dex or Str balance for two Mentals or 1 other Physical; Con balances for 1 other stat; and 1 Mental balances for 1 Physical or 1 other Mental.

Point 3: Darkness as a SLA is a holdout from 3E when it was a much better spell. Now, the fact that it is 2nd level makes it too much for a LA 0 race, but it sucks too much for LA 1.

Point 4: The Resistances are currently the core benefit of the class, changing to LA 0, they're the first thing that needs to be nerfed.

That in mind, Race Makeover:

Spoiler

Show

Tiefling
Outsider (Native)

+2 Int, -2 Wis: Tieflings are cunning and devious like their Fiendish forebears, but tend to lack empathy or deeper understanding.

Darkvision 60 ft.

Resistances: Fire 2, Cold 2, Electricity 2: Tiefling's share some of their ancestor's natural resistance to energy.

Tieflings get a +2 Racial bonus on saves against Poison.

+2 to Bluff and Hide Checks: Tieflings make up for their foreign appearance with deviousness.

-2 to Diplomacy Checks: Tieflings are often skilled speakers, but their reputation for manipulativeness makes them distrusted everywhere.

Fiendish Power: At character creation, choose 3 0-Level Enchantment, Illusion, or Necromancy spells, none of which can have the "Good" descriptor. You gain these as Spell Like Abilities, each usable once per day.

Fiendish Traits: At character creation, roll two d8, your character has physical traits matching your results.

1-Horns
2-Whiff of Brimstone
3-Hooves
4-Red Eyes
5-Fanged Teeth
6-Vestigal Spines
7-Tail
8-Roll two additional d8; ignoring duplicate results or additional results of 8

The main innovation is the addition of custom spell-like abilities; which I chose because they can never become too powerful at 0 level, but allow a flavor of Fiendish magic and give the player multiple SLAs to work with, as opposed to a one-trick darkness.

The randomized traits may seem like a taboo because they take character customization out of the PCs hands, but part of being a fiend is that you are stuck with what you look like, you don't get to choose it.

[Ambrogino]

Point 1: They have to be outsiders, not only because it isn't too powerful for an LA +0 (See Neraphs and Spikers from Planar Handbook) but because that's a vital part of their flavor. This is the difference between a Tiefling and a Human with the Fiendish Heritage Feat.

No, the difference between a Tiefling and a Human with Fiendish Heritage is that a Tielfling is a direct descendant of a Fiend, and a Human with Fiendish Heritage may be many generations removed from the Fiend in their ancestry. Their flavour is entirely detatched from the mechanical effects of Humanoid vs Outsider.

[Thomas]

No, the difference between a Tiefling and a Human with Fiendish Heritage is that a Tielfling is a direct descendant of a Fiend, and a Human with Fiendish Heritage may be many generations removed from the Fiend in their ancestry. Their flavour is entirely detatched from the mechanical effects of Humanoid vs Outsider.

Debatable.

According to Races of Faerûn (which obviously is only "the rules" for FR, but is still a WotC-printed reference that can be elaborated on), planetouched (aasimar, genasi, tieflings) can be born in a family that has an appropriate ancestor (a half-whatever) way, way back in the past. You have 10 generations of apparently perfectly normal humans, and suddenly a mother gives birth to a child with horns, because over two centuries ago someone was seduced by an incubus. That's bound to cause some comment and question...

So a human with Fiendish Heritage is just a "weaker manifestation" of the exact same thing.

Half-fiends, half-celestials, and half-dragons could easily be played as the same, just a "stronger manifestation" of a similar bloodline entering into the family generations ago. It's just names for a game mechanic, after all.

[ArmorArmadillo]

No, the difference between a Tiefling and a Human with Fiendish Heritage is that a Tielfling is a direct descendant of a Fiend, and a Human with Fiendish Heritage may be many generations removed from the Fiend in their ancestry. Their flavour is entirely detatched from the mechanical effects of Humanoid vs Outsider.

The definition of a Tiefling is a fiendish Planetouched; and planetouched are native outsiders. Perhaps it's imaginable to have a different flavor for them; but outsider is not strong enough to justify nerfing the traditional flavor.

[Scorpina]

Basically all you really need to do is change them from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched), meaning that they're susceptable to effects aimed at both humanoids and outsiders. Less powerful than a dwarf, I'd reckon.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Basically all you really need to do is change them from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched), meaning that they're susceptable to effects aimed at both humanoids and outsiders. Less powerful than a dwarf, I'd reckon.

Why do people consider Outsiders so powerful?
They gain immunity to a small number of effects (Hold, Charm, and Dominate Person) and vulnerability to others (anything effecting outsiders)

They also lose the ability to be resurrected, which is a very serious.

They gain proficiency with simple and martial weapons which is not particularly powerful;
Consider: Classes which rely heavily on combat either are already granted it (Bar, Ftr, Rgr, Pal, etc.) or don't need it because of special abilities (Monk). Classes such as Sor, Wiz, and the like make little use of weapon proficiencies, as they are too weak for combat.
This leaves, Clr, Drd, Brd, and Rog; they already have smatterings of martial proficiencies, but yes, they do gain a benefit from having some proficiencies in slightly better weapons than what they already have (possibly, as Bards and Rogues tend to prefer Finesse weapons like Rapiers that they're already proficient with).

Yes, outsider is a benefit, but a small one, and one that definitely does not require LA. So yes, you can make Humanoid (Planetouched), but you don't need to.

[Thomas]

Why do people consider Outsiders so powerful?
They gain immunity to a small number of effects (Hold, Charm, and Dominate Person) and vulnerability to others (anything effecting outsiders)

They also lose the ability to be resurrected, which is a very serious.

Native outsider. They can be resurrected.

The type is a big advantage with no real disadvantages.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Can you give me a rules quote about that? All I know s that they have outsider type and outsider type in SRD describes "Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry."

Is somewhere a general entry telling that you do not gain benefit of your type unless you have HD of it? O.o

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling

Tieflings As Characters

Tiefling characters possess the following racial traits.

• +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
• Medium size.
• A tiefling’s base land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Racial Skills: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.
• Racial Feats: A tiefling gains feats according to its class levels.
• Special Attacks (see above): Darkness.
• Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
• Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.
• Favored Class: Rogue.
• Level adjustment +1.

Nowhere does it state they gain proficiency.

Ogres As Characters

Ogre characters possess the following racial traits.

• +10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.
• Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
• Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
• An ogre’s base land speed is 40 feet.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Racial Hit Dice: An ogre begins with four levels of giant, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
• Racial Skills: An ogre’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 7 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Climb, Listen, and Spot.
• Racial Feats: An ogre’s giant levels give it two feats.
• Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ogre is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
• +5 natural armor bonus.
• Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terran.
• Favored Class: Barbarian.
• Level adjustment +2.

But here, as an example of a race with weapon and armor proficiencies stated in it's 'as characters' entry. Every race I've seen with automatic proficiencies because of type is stated in its 'as character' entry. Say they don't have one, perhaps they'd get that proficiency. Tieflings however do not.

(Ogre's as characters and Tieflings as characters taken from the SRD)