Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[RickDaily12]

Sorry, I wasn't intending it to be, but I can see how that might have come across that way...

And honestly, big guns -not- meaning most high/highest power? Why not? It's like, oh, we have a cannon here, it's our biggest gun... oh, and we also have planet-destroying missiles. What would we call "big guns" for Xykon? His forcecage spell?

Given her usage of wormhole, factoring in the rest of the spells and even at a 5th level calculation, we're turning up short of 9th level available powers.

Even if it augments at 1st, the army scene would require so much augmentation that she would be epic level anyway. So what, her big gun is Disintegrate and she's withholding 9th powers against V?

I can't see how we can't infer a spell level of at least 8. Really. It is the only way we prevent contradiction of both Sabine and the army scene at this point.

[Quartz]

V has in excess of 25 spells left.

Assuming V was telling the truth.

[Kurald Galain]

Assuming V was telling the truth.

Character with no bluff or social skills vs a scheming mind-reader... signs point to "yes"

I like how the Giant cut off the Sabine scene right before she reveals the level we've been talking about for weeks.

Anyway, adding gems to Haley and ioun stone to V.

[RMS Oceanic]

Well, let's try and number crunch how many spells V starts the day with before we draw any conclusions. The following calculations exclude cantrips.

- A level 15 Wizard has 26 spell slots
- V is a specialist, so add another 8 = 32
- An intelligence of 23 means another 8 spells (1 each of 3-6, 2 each 1-2) = 40
- Finally, a Ring of Wizardry doubles one level of spells, i.e. another 4 = 44

So can we see if V has cast more than 19 spells today?

[Shale]

Overland Flight, Expeditious Retreat, Passwall, Bigby's Knocking Hand (actual spell irrelevant here), Fireball, Wall of Flame, Stoneskin, Lightning Bolt, Fly, Chain Lightning, Prismatic Spray, Forcecage, Cone of Cold, Dimensional Anchor, Bigby's Grasping Hand...what am I missing?

[RickDaily12]

Overland Flight, Expeditious Retreat, Passwall, Bigby's Knocking Hand (actual spell irrelevant here), Fireball, Wall of Flame, Stoneskin, Lightning Bolt, Fly, Chain Lightning, Prismatic Spray, Forcecage, Cone of Cold, Dimensional Anchor, Bigby's Grasping Hand...what am I missing?

Just a third hand spell (Two fists, one open hand)

and Disintegrate, and Greater Dispel Magic.

Plus whatever was casted in the demiplane (Bonus material)

[Shale]

That's the same hand; Grasping Hand can do anything a lower-level Hand spell can, including bull rushing with an open palm like Forceful Hand.

[RickDaily12]

It doesn't seem to be so, though...

One spell was used in the tunnel, yes... and then V grabs the sword...

but doesn't V stop casting here? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0933.html

And then a new hand appears after.

[CaDzilla]

Jacinda
Catfolk female,
Rogue
Dex ~14 (no evidence, racial)
Cha ~12+ (no evidence, racial)
Age: 35+
Feats ():
Skills ():
Items: Green flying carpet, Knife

[RMS Oceanic]

Overland Flight, Expeditious Retreat, Passwall, Bigby's Knocking Hand (actual spell irrelevant here), Fireball, Wall of Flame, Stoneskin, Lightning Bolt, Fly, Chain Lightning, Prismatic Spray, Forcecage, Cone of Cold, Dimensional Anchor, Bigby's Grasping Hand...what am I missing?

Greater Dispel Magic, Scorching Ray, a Second Lightning Bolt, Disintegrate and a pushing hand spell (for three hand spells today)

That has us clocking in at 21 spells. There are two explanations if we hold the claim to be true: V's int is now 24 (+1 7th and +1 3rd level spell) or V's level is now 16 (+1 7th and +1 8th level spell).

[Shale]

Oh, right, I forgot about that panel. No glow around either hand means the spell is over. So yeah, Forceful Hand goes on the list too. Which, plus Greater Dispel Magic and Disintegrate (when were those? I can't remember them) gives us.....eighteen spells! In excess of 25 indeed.

Edit: Whoops, forgot Scorching Ray and Lightning Bolt 2: Son Of Lightning Bolt.

[Flame of Anor]

doesn't V stop casting here? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0933.html

Maybe, but all you have to base that on is the partial view of V in the second panel. We don't see V again until the (same or new) hand appears to whack Tarquin. I don't think it's conclusive.

[RickDaily12]

We see both hands. Even if it's a partial view, Rich has never drawn a casting that has not completely engulfed a hand (that is, if the casting requires somatic components).

So yeah, the whole hand isn't there, but...

[Codyage]

1. Overland flight on V.
2. Overland flight on Durkon.
3. Overland flight on Belkar
4. Possibly overland flight on the Kobold.
5. Greater Dispel Magic.
6. Pass wall
7. Quickened Expeditious Retreat.
8. Bugsby hand.
9. stone skin
10. fireball
11. wall of fire
12. protection from arrows
13. lightning bolt
14. fly
15. chain lightning
16. scorching ray
17. lightning bolt
18. hold monster
19. lightning bolt
20. prismatic spray
21. disintegrate
22. Bugsby hand
23. another hand
24. cone of cold
25. force cage
26. dimensional anchor
27. resilient sphere

[RickDaily12]

1. Overland flight on V.
2. Overland flight on Durkon.
3. Overland flight on Belkar
4. Possibly overland flight on the Kobold.

Whoa. Great catch on this...

...but I'm a lot more inclined to believe that this could well be just some version of a mass-flight spell. Homebrewed to 7th or 8th or so.

That many overland flights could cause some problems...

[Codyage]

Ah crud!

V has cast 19 spells since waking up to the battle in the desert.

Which leaves 44 -19 = 25.

Think the IFCC gave V a fresh set of spells? Because that leaves a perfect amount.

Edit: Wait, Illven is right. That makes 46.

[Illven]

Well, let's try and number crunch how many spells V starts the day with before we draw any conclusions. The following calculations exclude cantrips.

- A level 15 Wizard has 26 spell slots
- V is a specialist, so add another 8 = 32
- An intelligence of 23 means another 8 spells (1 each of 3-6, 2 each 1-2) = 40
- Finally, a Ring of Wizardry doubles one level of spells, i.e. another 4 = 44

So can we see if V has cast more than 19 spells today?

26+8 is 34. The total is 46.

[RMS Oceanic]

Whoa. Great catch on this...

...but I'm a lot more inclined to believe that this could well be just some version of a mass-flight spell. Homebrewed to 7th or 8th or so.

That many overland flights could cause some problems...

Yeah, my gut is it was a single Overland flight that also allows casting on multiple people. Remember that the SRD Overland Flight doesn't even let you cast it on anyone other than yourself.

Also, Four OF's means the number of level five spell slots is at least nine slots. (4x OF Trans, Passwall Trans, Q. Ex. Retreat Trans, Hold Monster Ench, Cone of Cold Evoc, Forcecage Evoc.) That isn't happening without an intelligence in the high 30's or the Ring of Wizardry being epic. Assuming one Overland Flight for the four of them means it fits better.

26+8 is 34. The total is 46.

Huh. That's what I get for attempting math at bedtime.

I blush corrected: V's current stats fit the claim.

EDIT: Or not? Seems I missed a couple of spells?

Eh, I'll let you guys number crunch it. Tonight I have the dumb.

[RickDaily12]

EDIT: Or not? Seems I missed a couple of spells?

Eh, I'll let you guys number crunch it. Tonight I have the dumb.

Well, assuming we take Codyage's numbers, and instate an OF (>5th) in place of spells 1-4, we have 24 spells. We missed PFA, Hold Monster, and some other.... Oh, and Resilient Sphere.

so even if we must hold a limit of 21, that has still been exceeded... by 3.

WAIT! I've got it! V leveled up to 16, therefore getting a bonus skill point, and took it in INT!

[Codyage]

I thought that too, except...

24 Int gives two bonus spells.

Level 16 Wizard, adds an additional 2, a 7th, and an 8th.

That is 4 spells. 4 from the 3 you had left over makes 1.

If you want to use the mass overland flight/fly idea for Durkon, Belkar, and the Kobold, we would be spot on.

[RickDaily12]

I think I can answer that. V targeted hirself with an Overland flight spell. Spell 1.

Durkon and Belkar are in flight once V is retrieved.

V continues to fly, but Belkar cannot. OF's time > Fly's time.

There's evidence of a casting of Mass Fly, then? Spell 2.

= 4.

[zimmerwald1915]

V has in excess of 25 spells left. Can we get a count on all the spells done today, and see if they match up?

The number of spells left over, may be able to tell what level V is right now.

I thought that too, except...

24 Int gives two bonus spells.

Level 16 Wizard, adds an additional 2, a 7th, and an 8th.

That is 4 spells. 4 from the 3 you had left over makes 1.

If you want to use the mass overland flight/fly idea for Durkon, Belkar, and the Kobold, we would be spot on.

Here are the spells V has cast today, sorted by level and labeled by strip, under the assumptions that she and Durkon prepared spells between strips 836 and 837 (we know Durkon did, for Elan's plan's sake, so why wouldn't she?) and that her ring of wizardry is a ring of wizardry III.

Spoiler: First, assuming level 15 and 23 INT

Show

8th Bugbsy's clenched fist (896, specialist), -
7th Bugsby's grasping hand (932), forcecage (935), prismatic spray (927, specialist)
6th chain lightning (921, specialist), disintegrate (928), Bugsby's forceful hand (934)*, greater dispel magic (839), -
5th cone of cold (935, specialist), hold monster (925), overland flight (837), passwall (857), quickened expeditious retreat (857), -
4th dimensional anchor (935), resilient sphere (935), stoneskin (919), wall of fire (919, specialist), - , -
3rd fireball (919, specialist), fly (921), lightning bolt x3 (920, 923, 926), - , - , - , - , -
2nd protection from arrows (919), scorching ray (923, specialist), - , - , - , - , -
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
0 - , - , - , -

*This may be Bugsby’s grasping hand from 932.

Spoiler: Second, assuming level 16 and 23 INT

Show

8th Bugbsy's clenched fist (896, specialist), - , -
7th Bugsby's grasping hand (932), forcecage (935), prismatic spray (927, specialist), -
6th chain lightning (921, specialist), disintegrate (928), Bugsby's forceful hand (934)*, greater dispel magic (839), -
5th cone of cold (935, specialist), hold monster (925), overland flight (837), passwall (857), quickened expeditious retreat (857), -
4th dimensional anchor (935), resilient sphere (935), stoneskin (919), wall of fire (919, specialist), - , -
3rd fireball (919, specialist), fly (921), lightning bolt x3 (920, 923, 926), - , - , - , - , -
2nd protection from arrows (919), scorching ray (923, specialist), - , - , - , - , -
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
0 - , - , - , -

*This may be Bugsby’s grasping hand from 932.

Spoiler: And finally, assuming level 16 and 24 INT

Show

8th Bugbsy's clenched fist (896, specialist), - , -
7th Bugsby's grasping hand (932), forcecage (935), prismatic spray (927, specialist), -, -
6th chain lightning (921, specialist), disintegrate (928), Bugsby's forceful hand (934)*, greater dispel magic (839), -
5th cone of cold (935, specialist), hold monster (925), overland flight (837), passwall (857), quickened expeditious retreat (857), -
4th dimensional anchor (935), resilient sphere (935), stoneskin (919), wall of fire (919, specialist), - , -
3rd fireball (919, specialist), fly (921), lightning bolt x3 (920, 923, 926), - , - , - , - , -, -
2nd protection from arrows (919), scorching ray (923, specialist), - , - , - , - , -
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
0 - , - , - , -

*This may be Bugsby’s grasping hand from 932.

If V has 15 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 23, she would have had either 22 or 23 spells, not including cantrips, remaining at the time of her comment to Laurin, depending on whether the hand in 934 was a new spell or a spell that had stuck around. If V has 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 23, she would have had either 24 or 25 spells remaining at the time of her comment to Laurin. If V has 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 24, she would have had either 26 or 27 spells remaining at the time of her comment to Laurin. In order for V to be telling the truth, she must have 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 24.

[RickDaily12]

Well, and then the flight spell for putting Durkon and Belkar into the air, for longer than V hirself. Which adds another spell to the list... surely ruining the first two lists.

Thanks for the compilation, zimmer!

[Taelas]

We see both hands. Even if it's a partial view, Rich has never drawn a casting that has not completely engulfed a hand (that is, if the casting requires somatic components).

So yeah, the whole hand isn't there, but...

It may simply be because he isn't directing it at that moment.

Edit: the Overland Flight spells on Durkon and Belkar are irrelevant: V says that if he casts the spell on them both, they can reach the canyon in a day. They must have prepared spells between arriving back with the others and leaving.

[halfeye]

cantrips?

What are those in D&D? I understood the word to be a synonym for spell, in general usage.

[Shale]

Cantrips are 0th-level arcane spells. Orisons are zeroth-level divine spells. Basically, they're magic so weak that you can't even call them "spells" anymore.

[zimmerwald1915]

Edit: the Overland Flight spells on Durkon and Belkar are irrelevant: V says that if he casts the spell on them both, they can reach the canyon in a day. They must have prepared spells between arriving back with the others and leaving.

Indeed. That's one of the reasons I assumed V prepared spells in between strips 836 and 837.

Cantrips are 0th-level arcane spells. Orisons are zeroth-level divine spells. Basically, they're magic so weak that you can't even call them "spells" anymore.

There are other differences besides the strength of the "spell". Casters don't get additional cantrips or orisions from high ability scores. Specialist Wizards don't get additional cantrips for specializing, and Clerics don't get additional orisons from their domains.

[Shreav]

A a complete non-D&D player here, so apologies for the utter ignorance. V now has an orange Ioun Stone, assuming that Blackwing doesn't refuse to let it go.

Does (s)he need to rest and prepare new spells to be able to make use of it? If not, does it influence the (> 25) calculation of the number of spells available?

[Taelas]

No, he does not need to rest, and no, it would not influence the number of spells he has available. It would influence the power of any spells he casts (that rely on caster level), however.

[Chronos]

Quoth Shale:

V is now the proud owner of an orange Ioun Stone.

Correction: Blackwing is now the proud owner of an orange Ioun Stone.