Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[Reddish Mage]

Someone came up with an artifact that would give a psion an extra 300-600 points, it may well be she has one of those whatever it was (they had a link to some offical looking stats on it, but I forget what it was called).

If we start considering artifacts as a potential alternative to any calculations we find actual in-comic evidence for, then we might wipe away half the stats we have down already.

[Hecuba]

You misread me: I was specifically referring to augmenting a Psychoportation power to enhance its range appears to have been excised after Second Edition, looking at Dimension Door or Teleport - can't remember which - and how they differ in 3.X.

It was Dimensional Door (Complete psionics handbook).

[RickDaily12]

Yes, she's augmented it up the wazoo... once. If it works like my example, then she may well have augmented it up to a total cost of 20 PP, to transport the whole army. But most of the times she's used it, she hasn't been transporting the whole army, just the trike and its three riders, and those could plausibly cost as low as 9.

Once again:I care not so much about her PP reserve. That calculation is 100% baseless. ...until we have a base level for her. In your hypothesis, she is level 20.

One follows from the other. I'm firstly arguing that Laurin is far higher than level 13. After that, we have the concern of just what Wormhole is.

I don't like the houseruling argument always getting tossed out, though. First it's being used to pinpoint Laurin as low as 13; now we're just tossing what-ifs? Guys, again, regardless of conservative PP usage, we are just being skeptics if we keep tossing this one around. You have Greater Psionic Teleport. You have its properties tossed at you. Now you have a player requesting to you this power of Wormhole. What would you demand the player to forfeit as a DM?

The "Well, it's better, but it's being spammed a lot, so it must be lower than PGT unless she took both powers" argument is just grasping. And just completely inoptimal, which goes against everything in Tarquin's kind of perfection in his build of a team. The fact that Wormhole has properties of Gate, and has performed better than a Teleport, and that Laurin travels with an epic party with the spells she's blasting around is strong evidence of this just being a fluid 9th power.

Is there any evidence that suggests a lower power is being augmented here? Besides the lack of her shouting just what it is that she casts with every power?

[Reddish Mage]

Figured this would be the place to post this. Apologies if this data is already known.

I went strip by strip logging every power Lauren used, with its level:

Spoiler

Show

disintegrate - 6
wormhole - 9
dimension door - 4
single stun - ?
dimension door - 4
telekinesis - 3
dispel - 3
body adjustment - 1
brain lock - 2
mass stun - ?
wormhole - 9
wormhole - 9
wormhole - 9
wormhole - 9
brain lock - 2
brain lock - 2
wormhole - 9
mind probe - 5
disentegrate - 6
big wormhole - 9
teleport - 8 (This is presumably how Lauren got to the EoB)

I then used this program:

Spoiler

Show

#include <fstream>
#include <iostream>
#include <string>
using namespace std;

int powerPoints(int level){
    return (level*2) - 1;
}

int cost(string line){
    char dash = *"-";
    char space = *" ";
    char letter;
    int number;
    for (int i = 0; i < line.length(); i++){
        if (line[i] == dash){
            if (line[i+1] == space){
                letter = line[i+2];
                number = letter;
                //restrict to numbers: 48 - 57
                if ((number <= 57)&&(number >= 48)){
                    //-48, *2, -1
                    number = ((number-48)*2-1);
                    return number;
                }
            }
        }
    }
}

int main(){
    ifstream lauren;
    lauren.open("lauren");
    int PowerPoints = 0;
    int pointOfPower;
    string power;
    
    while (!lauren.eof()){
        getline(lauren,power);
        PowerPoints += cost(power);
    }
    cout << PowerPoints << endl;
}

to analyze the data and came up with a minimum power cost of 199, plus the cost of the unknown powers, plus the cost of whatever augmentation were made. A 20th level Psion has a minimum of 343 power points per day, so she's nowhere near out, which supprised me because I went into this expecting to find her out or nearly out of power points.

What happened to that argument about Laurin losing her top two powers to Durkon's level drain? If that still holds true then Wormhole can't be a 9th level power, right?

Oh, and I also heard mention that she lost the powers' cost in PP when she was drained. Did you include that?

I'm firstly arguing that Laurin is far higher than level 13. After that, we have the concern of just what Wormhole is.

We can do a lot of messing with Laurin's powers and level if we allow the possibility of home-brew, tons of unseen magic items, or artifacts. However, everything we have seen using in-story, about-story, and meta-game logic that Laurin must be very high level. First, in-story, Laurin is casting A LOT of really powerful effects, and she and Tarquin seem to think they have the upper hand against a team of high level PCs, ergo she should have the levels that fit with her role in the story. Second, from a story perspective, if Laurin was low teens she would not fit with the ECLs of Tarquin and Malack. Finally, from a meta-game perspective, Laurin would have to be optimized to a level we haven't seen with any other PC or NPC in this entire comic to be fighting as well as she has been without being level 18+.

Even if the Giant intends to make break rules here and there, I doubt he will be violating conventions by making Laurin low level.

On another note, WOW, 20th level Psion can really spam that many 9th level powers? How does this balance with the power of a wizard or a sorcerer (aside from making sorcerers seem really underpowered in comparison)?

[illyahr]

If the dagger were a Sunblade analogue he could use Power Attack.

Injuring Elan as well indicates either the Cleave feat or a sufficiently high BAB to attack multiple targets.

Combat Brute from Complete Warrior works. Requires Power Attack, Cleave, and Improved Sunder. One of the tactics it allows is Sundering Cleave, which allows a single attack after a successful sunder attempt.

[Douglas]

On another note, WOW, 20th level Psion can really spam that many 9th level powers? How does this balance with the power of a wizard or a sorcerer (aside from making sorcerers seem really underpowered in comparison)?

Sure, a 20th level Psion can spam 9th level powers for quite a while, but when he runs out he runs OUT - nothing left, not even level 1 powers. When a Sorcerer runs out of 9th level spells he still has all his level 1 through 8 spells, many of which will still be highly relevant if he was at all smart in choosing them. Also, if a level 20 Sorcerer casts Delayed Blast Fireball he gets 20 dice of damage for a 7th level slot. If a Psion wants 20 dice of damage from anything, he has to spend 20 power points - the equivalent cost of a level 10.5 power. Psions get almost no free level-based scaling.

If you took a Sorcerer's level 7, 8 and 9 spells all together and compared that to a Psion spamming 9ths until he's empty, I think they'd come out about even in both total power and power per action - but the Sorcerer would still have his entire level 6 and below spell selection available. The Psion gets extra flexibility in how to spend his power, but it's certainly not a clear upgrade.

[Dark Matter]

On another note, WOW, 20th level Psion can really spam that many 9th level powers? How does this balance with the power of a wizard or a sorcerer (aside from making sorcerers seem really underpowered in comparison)?

When she's done with spamming that 9th level spell, she's *done*, *totally*.

A sorcerer gets his 6 9th level slots (plus any bonus), then on top of that he's *still* got his 1st through 8th.

Edit: Ninja'ed.

[Hecuba]

Is there any evidence that suggests a lower power is being augmented here? Besides the lack of her shouting just what it is that she casts with every power?

The fact that we have an official power from a prior edition, of that exact name and application, that works via augmentation?

The fact that the size of the aperture varies in size, another feature it shares with the prior edition power?

The fact that she's applying it for use in the range of hundreds of feet when she has a 4th level power she could use for that purpose?

The fact that the similarity with gate is primarily visual? (If you must model it on a 9, the actual high end effects are more in line with Psionic Teleportation Circle).



I'm personally leaning towards lower-level with augmentation, but I think it might well be a 9th level power.
What I don't think has been remotely demonstrated is that it must be a 9th level power. Or that it must be a lower-level power with augmentation.

I don't think anyone thinks she is 13th level.
I also doubt anyone thinks Hilgya is only 7th level (the rest of her party was higher level than that at the time).
But those are the levels we can conclusively demonstrate.

[Dark Matter]

The fact that she's applying it for use in the range of hundreds of feet when she has a 4th level power she could use for that purpose?

Tactically using the Gate/wormhole makes more sense than using Dimension-Door.

She and T will be able to see where they appear and not worry about appearing next to someone or with their back turned. For her specifically this is the difference between Tarquin serving as a meat shield and maybe her getting dragged into melee.

And with the extra PP that was drained, and the various other extras she's probably used to pump her powers (Body Adjustment wasn't for just one die), while she's not running on fumes, she is reaching the point where she might run out.

All we know for sure is that Wormhole wasn't her highest spell, it's possible she had epic casting and just lost her epic spells... and if so she lost more PP too since they cost more to cast.

[Kareasint]

If we start considering artifacts as a potential alternative to any calculations we find actual in-comic evidence for, then we might wipe away half the stats we have down already.

That head band is probably a Psicrown that Laurin made herself. It would explain how she is using so many psionic powers.

Tarquin probably has Improved Sunder. Elan did not get an AoO on Tarquin's Sunder action. that would also give him Power Attack.

[Doctor Awkward]

The seemingly endless whining over Laurin's current power points I keep seeing in the official strip threads has finally crossed my rant-inducing threshold.

Time to clarify a few things about psions:

As you can see from the table on that helpful link, psions receive a daily allotment of power points based on their current class level. At level 20 this caps at 343.
Epic progression tells us that "psions receive no additional power points for any levels beyond 20", however, they do get additional power points for having a high Intelligence score, as indicated on this helpful table here.

As that table clearly shows, a 20th level psion with a score of 18 in Intelligence (baseline, as V stated s/he had such a score in the earliest of strips) would receive an additional 40 PP per day. A score in the 30's (hardly out of line for a 20th level character, let alone an epic one), would give her an additional 100. Even if Laurin used the Elite Array at character creation (15 Intelligence), putting all 5 of her Ability Score gains into Intelligence, and wearing a Headband of Intellect + 6, and using a Tome of Clear Thought for another +5 would give her a score of 31. And that's all done without leaving the Dungeon Master's Guide. A minimum of 30 Intelligence is not an unreasonable assumption. don't even start with "optimization blah blah Oots doesn't do it blah" arguments. This is not an optimal character choice. It's not even close. This is common sense.

So that gives Laurin a total allotment of 443 power points (minimum) to spend on a given day. Most people assume that Wormhole is a 9th level power. I personally don't think it is, and in another thread would happily entertain debates it is an augmented 8th level power (if not lower), but let's assume it is 9th. A quick glance at the power list will show us that the cost for a 9th level power is 17.

This means that, at minimum, Laurin is capable of using Wormhole (or any other 9th level power she desires) no less than twenty-six times a day.

By this helpful list we see that Laurin has manifested 21 on-panel powers, and exactly one-third of them were 9th level.

As to the argument over Durkon draining her powers:
XPH tells us when a psion is subject to a level drain they lose access to one power per negative level from their list of highest known powers. If two or more powers meet this criteria, then the psion chooses which ones become unaccessible. Since Laurin has more than adequately demonstrated that Wormhole is clearly her bread-and-butter power, she would have to be some kind of serious idiot to pick that power to be the one to go if other options were available.
The relevant part of this issue is that the psion also loses a number of power points equal to the cost of manifesting the lost power. So Laurin's total is down another 34 points from whatever it normally would be.

Ranting aside:

A high level psion is an incredibly potent force to introduce to a battlefield. As a class, they can "nova" extremely well (meaning blow all their resources very quickly to produce devastating results). To a lot of players and DM's this makes them seem overpowered, when psionic powers are really only as broken as the spells they imitate. A psion who runs themselves out of power points is a commoner, just like the wizard. And a psion who has no powers that apply to their current situation is just as helpless.

[RickDaily12]

I'm personally leaning towards lower-level with augmentation, but I think it might well be a 9th level power.
What I don't think has been remotely demonstrated is that it must be a 9th level power. Or that it must be a lower-level power with augmentation.

Aside from speculation, and direct comparisons against the 8th level PGT, I concede that I lack conclusive proof that Wormhole would be a 9th level power.

On the other hand, I maintain, and even assert that it is impossible for it to be an augmentable 1st level power. In terms of distance, it can connect the Windy Canyon to the Empire of Blood, effortlessly. In terms of accuracy, it has not failed to date. In terms of number of people it can carry? Count everyone not affiliated to the OOTS or Scoundrel. Let me know when you finish counting. Include size. Find me a way to reasonably increment such a broken 1st level houseruled power whose augmentation under those rules to move everybody and every living thing from Team Tarquin Story Squad to the Windy Canyon from the Empire of Blood, without ever failing, and without exceeding an augmentation value whose conditions these all fulfill beyond 22. (Otherwise you claim Laurin to be beyond 23rd level, which is insane...)

Or concede that this power cannot be augmented under 1st level without having to question the legitimacy of the DM. So if it cannot be augmented, and size of the portal is a matter of preference (like Gate), then this leaves us where...?

I'm not saying my case for 9th level is sound. I -am- certainly saying that the case for augmentable 1st is utterly absurd.

The fact that we have an official power from a prior edition, of that exact name and application, that works via augmentation?

The fact that the size of the aperture varies in size, another feature it shares with the prior edition power?

The fact that she's applying it for use in the range of hundreds of feet when she has a 4th level power she could use for that purpose?

The PP usage of said prior edition spell, to match what she's doing, is also outrageous. But, same could be said if left totally unpunished.

There are two critical differences between PDD and Wormhole. Wormhole travels further; we know this already. She's just choosing, freely, not to maximize its use. Might I add, two Wormholes were a bit more appropriately used: one to move the army from the EoB, and then again to move TT to attack the Order after the first escape. Heck, perhaps even the third, to move Tarquin onto the ship, counts. All three cases, and certainly the first two, I'd believe the distances to be greater than just 1,000 feet.

The second, of course, is how many people it carries. I'm also going to step off the rules a bit and point something out in the comic: Every Dimensional Door we know to have been casted has targeted only the caster. Every other teleportation spell has almost always targeted someone else, with or without the caster. Laurin being no exception. She is, however, the only person to single-handedly move an entire army with a power not considered epic.

In any case. Laurin has not used what we identify as her PDD outside its written limits. There's no comparison here to Wormhole. And not even PGT matches Wormhole, not in terms of sheer magnitude. The best argument you have given me, is, and I quote, "she has a 4th level spell for that purpose" in a particular case that she has used it. Of several where she doesn't.

If we strike down this based on stubborn houseruling, then so be it. But since this point is the only point, despite key flaws (like limits in augmentation) preventing us from projecting Laurin's level to a much more appropriate minimum, I feel grossly compelled to object here. I'm sorry, but rash use of power consumption being the best argument against this move- I really don't think this is grounds to pin her that low anymore. She's travels in an epic party. The Order is a party several levels lower. Seriously.

Now, back to Laurin's power consumption....

As that table clearly shows, a 20th level psion with a score of 18 in Intelligence (baseline, as V stated s/he had such a score in the earliest of strips) would receive an additional 40 PP per day. A score in the 30's (hardly out of line for a 20th level character, let alone an epic one), would give her an additional 100. Even if Laurin used the Elite Array at character creation (15 Intelligence), putting all 5 of her Ability Score gains into Intelligence, and wearing a Headband of Intellect + 6, and using a Tome of Clear Thought for another +5 would give her a score of 31. And that's all done without leaving the Dungeon Master's Guide. A minimum of 30 Intelligence is not an unreasonable assumption. don't even start with "optimization blah blah Oots doesn't do it blah" arguments. This is not an optimal character choice. It's not even close. This is common sense.

So that gives Laurin a total allotment of 443 power points (minimum) to spend on a given day. Most people assume that Wormhole is a 9th level power. I personally don't think it is, and in another thread would happily entertain debates it is an augmented 8th level power (if not lower), but let's assume it is 9th. A quick glance at the power list will show us that the cost for a 9th level power is 17.

This means that, at minimum, Laurin is capable of using Wormhole (or any other 9th level power she desires) no less than twenty-six times a day.

By this helpful list we see that Laurin has manifested 21 on-panel powers, and exactly one-third of them were 9th level.

I do like your inferences, just there are two particular problems I have with it:

1) If Laurin hasn't been anywhere near running low on power points, she's been using an odd number of lower level powers. And no, I don't think she's the type of person to beat around the bush, (as per Nale's death and Tarquin's attitude and persistence to killing the Order) so, just a hunch, I think she may be missing the 100 power points in question.

2) I added to that power list a bit, and I hardly would claim to modify it too unreasonably, but I got two calculations that deviate from his. And if we aren't about to see the Order get wiped out, while not ruling out the chance that TT gets away via another wormhole, I do think it's worth for you to give it a look.

[Hecuba]

I'm not saying my case for 9th level is sound. I -am- certainly saying that the case for augmentable 1st is utterly absurd.

I don't think a 1 is remotely likely- it would only seem remotely appropriate if we were trying to convert a 2nd Ed character who would only qualify for 1st level spells after conversion. 4th with augmentation seems more likely, as that would preserve the parallel applications of of Wormhole and other prior edition teleportation abilities (without augmentation, the range mirrored dimensional door).

Might I add, two Wormholes were a bit more appropriately used: one to move the army from the EoB, and then again to move TT to attack the Order after the first escape. Heck, perhaps even the third, to move Tarquin onto the ship, counts. All three cases, and certainly the first two, I'd believe the distances to be greater than just 1,000 feet.

Yes, but if Wormhole does retain the 2ed augmentation schedule, it is applicable in both those scenarios without wasting PP.

The way the 2ed power scales matches very well what we are seeing. When you pumped PSP into it at the cost of Dimensional Door( the equivelent spell was a 2 at the time IIRC), it had similar range (hundreds of feet). When you pumped PSP into it like you could afford at the 17-20 range and enlarged the opening, you could move armies thousands of miles.

I have little doubt that we're seeing an update of that science ( be it an augment able 4th or a flat 9th or easily accommodate the top-end applications). Her usage remains possible under both models of the power: if it maintains the triple scaling, however, it remains not only possible but tatically sound.

The PP usage of said prior edition spell, to match what she's doing, is also outrageous. But, same could be said if left totally unpunished. [•••]She's travels in an epic party. The Order is a party several levels lower. Seriously.

PSP pools aren't quite the same as PP pools. I linked some math I did earlier in the thread: if we were dealing strictly in 2nd Ed, her wormhole usage alone would peg her at a minimum of 18 (and that was 1 wormhole ago), and that's being absurdly generous with the army mover.

As such, I agree with you that she's most probably in the low epics (ECL very close to Malak's). I just don't think we have the kind of smoking gun this thread usually aims for.

[Shale]

Everybody on Team Tarquin is evil.

[Quartz]

With regard to V, we may need to give him a minimum Int of 24 given he may have cast 7x 3rd level spells during the current day. To whit: 1x Fireball, 5x Fly, 1x Lightning Bolt. As a specialist Evoker he can prepare 5 spells, one of which must be an Evocation spell. Thus he needs a minimum Int of 24 to get the +2 bonus spells, or his Ring of Wizardry to be Wizardry 3.

[orrion]

With regard to V, we may need to give him a minimum Int of 24 given he may have cast 7x 3rd level spells during the current day. To whit: 1x Fireball, 5x Fly, 1x Lightning Bolt. As a specialist Evoker he can prepare 5 spells, one of which must be an Evocation spell. Thus he needs a minimum Int of 24 to get the +2 bonus spells, or his Ring of Wizardry to be Wizardry 3.

Where are you getting 5x Fly spells?

[Quartz]

4x Fly in #836 (though this may be Mass Fly), 1x Fly in #921.

[orrion]

4x Fly in #836 (though this may be Mass Fly), 1x Fly in #921.

And V just flies for the past several comics without anything? No, I'm going to say that's Overland Flight, which means that was only 3x Fly spells.

[SaintRidley]

And V just flies for the past several comics without anything? No, I'm going to say that's Overland Flight, which means that was only 3x Fly spells.

To make some adjustments to that list:

Fly in 836 is probably Mass Fly, with V having Overland Flight up from the beginning of the day (like always).

Almost certainly no casting of Fly in any variety in 837. V is readying a spell. What it is, no idea, but probably wasn't cast.

919. V still has Overland Flight. It's a 24 hour spell.

921. V casts Fly on Haley. Finally a casting of Fly.

So one Overland Flight (5th level), one Fly (3rd level), one Mass Fly (7th level).

V always has Overland Flight active. V cast Fly on Haley. V probably had cast Mass Fly which we see in 836. Three spells, only one 3rd level.

[Bird]

Everybody on Team Tarquin is evil.

Nice catch.

[iyaerP]

Just in case anyone was wondering and it hasn't been posted yet, the number of creatures moved by the army use of wormhole was no fewer than 378 medium sized humans/humanoids, 15 medium/Large Deinonychus/Megaraptors, I am leaning towards the megaraptors based on size, 9 ?large? pterodactyls*, 2 Huge Tyrannosaurus, 1 Huge Triceratops.

Although about 30 of the humans, 3 raptors and one pterodactyl did not for sure go thru the portal, but were rather in the queue/ranks lined up to go thru.

*Can't find these guys in the SRD site, so don't have definite sizes for them

[zimmerwald1915]

With regard to V, we may need to give him a minimum Int of 24 given he may have cast 7x 3rd level spells during the current day. To whit: 1x Fireball, 5x Fly, 1x Lightning Bolt. As a specialist Evoker he can prepare 5 spells, one of which must be an Evocation spell. Thus he needs a minimum Int of 24 to get the +2 bonus spells, or his Ring of Wizardry to be Wizardry 3.

Then her ring of wizardry is a ring of wizardry 3.

Also, she says the spells she cast on Durkon and Belkar between 835 and 836 are overland flight, not fly. I'm inclined to believe her, since she says the flight will last until the end of the day, which is well beyond fly's or mass fly's fifteen-minute (for V) duration. Normally, overland flight is a personal-range spell, but that is apparently not the case in the OOTS-verse.

[Coat]

The fact that she's applying it for use in the range of hundreds of feet when she has a 4th level power she could use for that purpose?

If one of my players tried to dimension door a charging Triceratops while they were on it, I'd ask them to make at least one pretty difficult ride check to stop the thing from stumbling and planting its horn in the sand. and then probably another, to stop it panicking, if it hasn't been trained to be familiar with magical transport.

Even if Tarquin's got ride skill points up the Wazoo, the change in gait as it pops in and finds its footing again is going to throw off any aimed spell Miron's targeting. And Miron will have to spot and re-acquire his target after the pop.

Wormhole avoids both these problems, by giving the 'Ceratops a constant level field to run on, and nothing much scarier than walking through a door to navigate. Plus it keeps the target in constant sight, making it easier for Miron to line up his spells.

So I would say it was the better choice, if Laurin could afford it.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Dimension Door does not allow any actions after using it, for that round.

So anyone moving or charging through it is right out.

[Chronos]

We've suspected nearly from the beginning of the strip that V's Ring of Wizardry is probably a III. At least, e consistently uses more 3rd level spells than class and ability would imply, but has never shown an excess of spells at any other level. If we conclude that V has used an excess of Fly spells today, then that doesn't mean anything more than it did when e had an excess of Explosive Runes or of Suggestion. In other words, probably III, but with a slim outside chance that it's IV or higher and V just hasn't been using it to its full potential.

[RNGgod]

V refers to the Ring of Wizardry as III during the fight with the baby dragon, when V is a lizard, if I recall correctly.

[Shale]

Not in so many words, but V says that the reason s/he has so many Suggestion spells prepared is due in part to the Ring of Wizardry. Since Suggestion is a third-level spell for Wizards, that makes the ring either III or IV.

[Raenir Salazar]

How likely is it that V can cast 8th level spells and Mind Blank in particular?

[illyahr]

I'd like to point out that the Ring of Wizardry item in the OotS Board Game boosts V's Fireball. I don't know if that is conclusive, but the game was designed by the Giant himself so...

[zimmerwald1915]

How likely is it that V can cast 8th level spells and Mind Blank in particular?

That she can cast level 8 spells? It is certain; she has cast Bugsby's crushing hand and power word stun on panel. Mind blank specifically? She used it during the splice, but since she didn't have level 8 spells at that point it's definitely one of the splices', and there's nothing to suggest she has it in her own spellbook.