Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[Deliverance]

Thanks, Zimmerwald1915! I had forgotten about the ADB commenting on V's spells, only remembering how the number of spells used could be helped to determine a lower bound. Your aid in explanation is much appreciated.

[ChristianSt]

V is now the proud owner of an orange Ioun Stone. By RAW the only orange stone is the orange prism, which gives +1 caster level.

While it is possibly and probably the smartest move to give the Ioun Stone to V (and th OP already listed it as such), as of strip #935 I would argue to move it to Blackwing's items: It is clearly shown that he has it in his claws and he did not did say that he snagged it for V. So before we have evidence that he passed it to V it is imo Blackwing's item.

[Kornaki]

While it is possibly and probably the smartest move to give the Ioun Stone to V (and th OP already listed it as such), as of strip #935 I would argue to move it to Blackwing's items: It is clearly shown that he has it in his claws and he did not did say that he snagged it for V. So before we have evidence that he passed it to V it is imo Blackwing's item.

From a story perspective V letting Blackwing keep the bauble because he likes it even though it strengthens V considerably and does nothing for Blackwing would be a good character growth opportunity. So assuming that Blackwing will give the ioun stone to V is a mistake (even though I think it is more likely than not that he will).

[Nightblade]

I haven't been following this thread, but two things came to mind.

Does Roy actually have the Mage Slayer feat yet? His only usage takes place inside a very powerful illusion. Using an ability that he has been practicing but is not yet proficient with is not unreasonable given what else takes place.

With his recent return, is there enough information to put up a stat block for Julio? There's a bit of evidence for certain things:
-CL 11+, says he has 10 levels Dashing Swordsman
-DMG states you should have 5-6 levels before being able to take prestige classes (though splatbooks break this at least once), CL 15/16+
-As a rival to Tarquin, it is also possible to say he's equal to his level a la PC rival rules, i.e. Crystal.
-Claims average str/dex scores (10-12?) but reasonably better Charisma (14+ min, though 20+ isn't far-fetched considering Swordsman rank, level, and wealth).
-Smarter than Elan (10+ Int?)

That's off the top of my head. There is likely more I don't remember in SSDT.

[Shale]

He used his feat (which I still don't think is Mage Slayer) on Miron to cancel his Horrid Wilting.

[Quartz]

Right you are. It is clearly too long time since I played D&D* apart from in CRPGs, as I remembered some RoW variants as being able to double spells for all spell levels up to the highest they affected

In 1e there was a RoW that doubled 1st-3rd level spells, and another which doubled 4th & 5th level spells.

[GregTD]

Just after my post, Illven shows that the math was wrong on how many spells V has in a day. Going from 44 to 46.

44 - 25 left over makes 19. The exact amount cast which proves the IFCC theory correct.

However, 46(The correct amount) - 25 is 21 cast. Which didn't match up with the number of spells V casted at the moment.

Zimmerwald, and RickDaily then did the math, and the error was, V is now level 16, instead of 15. With all the bonus spells and the like for leveling up. So, instead of V getting refreshed by the IFCC, the math shows V leveling up, is the only scenario right now that can fit the number of spells cast.

Well, no, the option is that V is level 16 with a 24 Int, IIRC.

Since, IIRC, people thought V was level 15 with a 23 Int, the "IFCC refills" hypothesis is at least as strong as the "V is level 16 w/ Int 24" hypothesis. No?

[Quartz]

even though it strengthens V considerably

Not really. It enables him to cast his current spells as if he were a level higher; it doesn't give him spells as if he were a level higher. It's a 5% boost versus SR, Dispel checks, and the like. So, no 9th level spell for V.

[zimmerwald1915]

Not really. It enables him to cast his current spells as if he were a level higher; it doesn't give him spells as if he were a level higher. It's a 5% boost versus SR, Dispel checks, and the like. So, no 9th level spell for V.

Where do you get "must grant level 9 spells" from "strengthens V considerably"? It seems to me that an extra damage die, a 5% greater probability to dispel and counterspell, and a 5% greater probability to penetrate spell resistance all "strengthen V considerably", especially since V likes to use damage spells (she even used one in this fight with Laurin) and has historically had a hard time penetrating spell resistance.

[Quartz]

Since, IIRC, people thought V was level 15 with a 23 Int, the "IFCC refills" hypothesis is at least as strong as the "V is level 16 w/ Int 24" hypothesis. No?

No it isn't. V was only in the care of the IFCC for 20-odd minutes and did not have access to his spellbook, and did not have the opportunity to rest. This means that V is at least 16th level with at least Int 24.

[Seward]

If V has 15 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 23, she would have had either 22 or 23 spells, not including cantrips, remaining at the time of her comment to Laurin, depending on whether the hand in 934 was a new spell or a spell that had stuck around. If V has 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 23, she would have had either 24 or 25 spells remaining at the time of her comment to Laurin. If V has 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 24, she would have had either 26 or 27 spells remaining at the time of her comment to Laurin. In order for V to be telling the truth, she must have 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 24.

You forgot the ring of wizardry. That's another 4 spell slots of level 1-3, probably level 3.

[Quartz]

Where do you get "must grant level 9 spells" from "strengthens V considerably"?

Because in 1e/2e there was an Ioun Stone, the dendroid, which did give you +1 level of ability.

[Chronos]

Quoth Deliverance:

but then again, we very seldom see V go wild with any sort of magic as unloading a significant part of any high level wizard's load of spells would take a lot of strips.

But we have seen it at least twice, and both times the spell level with which e went wild was third: When e cast Explosive Runes on Belkar repeatedly, and when e told the Young Black Dragon how many Suggestions he had.

[zimmerwald1915]

No it isn't. V was only in the care of the IFCC for 20-odd minutes and did not have access to his spellbook, and did not have the opportunity to rest. This means that V is at least 16th level with at least Int 24.

The Directors can refresh V's spell slots...when, and by, performing a soul splice. They did not perform a soul splice here.

You forgot the ring of wizardry. That's another 4 spell slots of level 1-3, probably level 3.

No I didn't. Check the first paragraph of the post again, right under the two block quotes. Then count how many level 3 spell slots I gave V.

Because in 1e/2e there was an Ioun Stone, the dendroid, which did give you +1 level of ability.

So? This is 3.5e (or rather, the OOTS RPG, which works like 3.5e unless explicitly stated otherwise, and no explicit statement has appeared), son.

[GregTD]

No it isn't. V was only in the care of the IFCC for 20-odd minutes and did not have access to his spellbook, and did not have the opportunity to rest. This means that V is at least 16th level with at least Int 24.

While I don't believe he realizes it, zimmer already shot that down:

Performing a soul splice would replenish V's spell slots.

"Though on the plus side, the rejuvenating effects of the Soul Splice will allow you to start with all spell slots fully replenished."

We know that V's body was "rejuvenated" to full HP this time. The Soul Splice rejuvenation took less than 20 minutes, and didn't involve V looking at her spell book, or resting.

So, we know that the IFCC can do it, and the restoration of health (that was not promised) shows that V gets benefits from the grab that weren't explained before hand.

So unless you have a good story about how V picked up an extra bit of Int, and an extra level, without anyone really noticing, I'd say the "IFCC refills" is the best explanation.

[GregTD]

It still doesn't work even if you flip it.

Spells V has casted today
1. Overland flight on V.
2. Greater Dispel Magic.
3. Pass wall
4. Quickened Expeditious Retreat.
5. Bugsby hand.
6. stone skin
7. fireball
8. wall of fire
9. protection from arrows
10. lightning bolt
11. fly
12. chain lightning
13. scorching ray
14. lightning bolt
15. hold monster
16. lightning bolt
17. prismatic spray
18. disintegrate
19. Bugsby hand
20. another hand
21. cone of cold
22. force cage
23. dimensional anchor
24. resilient sphere

Possible Scenarios
46(Spells per day at level 15 with 23 Int) - 24(Spells cast) = 22 (Spells left). Does not work.

48(Spells per day at level 16 with 23 Int) - 24(Spells cast) = 24 (Spells left). Does not work.

50(Spells per day at level 16 and 24 Int) - 24(Spells cast) = 26 (Spells left). Does work.

V being level 16 with 24 Int is the only scenario where V can have all of their spells ready to go.

Going by the idea that the IFCC did replenish the spells.

Changes the results to 27, 29, and 31.

All three still qualify if the IFCC restored spells (Where is the proof that they said they would replenish spells anyway?)

However, only one scenario, V being level 16 with 24 Int works if the IFCC didn't restore spells.

They never said anything about replenishing spell slots. They also never said anything about replenishing HP, but they did that.

[Megsie]

While I don't believe he realizes it, Zimmerman already shot that down:



"Though on the plus side, the rejuvenating effects of the Soul Splice will allow you to start with all spell slots fully replenished."

We know that V's body was "rejuvenated" to full HP this time. The Soul Splice rejuvenation took less than 20 minutes, and didn't involve V looking at her spell book, or resting.

So, we know that the IFCC can do it, and the restoration of health (that was not promised) shows that V gets benefits from the grab that weren't explained before hand.

So unless you have a good story about how V picked up an extra bit of Int, and an extra level, without anyone really noticing, I'd say the "IFCC refills" is the best explanation.

"...the rejuvenating effects of the Soul Splice will..."

Not some special thing the IFCC did for this purpose, but a side effect of the process V underwent. Since Vaarsuvius did not undergo this same process in V's recent visit with the fiends, there is no reason to assume that V randomly got spell slots refilled.

[zimmerwald1915]

While I don't believe he realizes it, Zimmerman already shot that down:

Please, if you're going to quote me, at least get my name right. If you're not in the mood to type it out, then either shorten it (I like "zimmer") or copy and paste it from the quote box.

So unless you have a good story about how V picked up an extra bit of Int, and an extra level, without anyone really noticing, I'd say the "IFCC refills" is the best explanation.

Well, there was that whole "reclaiming the throne for Princess Gootrude and defeating the evil sauce dragon" thing, from which she'd be the only one to get XP (dominated thralls don't count as party members for the purposes of XP distribution). Personally, despite V's exasperation at the memory, I think it'd make a decent story.

[orrion]

While I don't believe he realizes it, Zimmerman already shot that down:



"Though on the plus side, the rejuvenating effects of the Soul Splice will allow you to start with all spell slots fully replenished."

We know that V's body was "rejuvenated" to full HP this time. The Soul Splice rejuvenation took less than 20 minutes, and didn't involve V looking at her spell book, or resting.

So, we know that the IFCC can do it, and the restoration of health (that was not promised) shows that V gets benefits from the grab that weren't explained before hand.

So unless you have a good story about how V picked up an extra bit of Int, and an extra level, without anyone really noticing, I'd say the "IFCC refills" is the best explanation.

IFCC states that V's body can't come to harm while his soul is with them and the place where his body was staying was subject to a massive explosion. It's reasonable that they had to do something to restore V's body after that and just went with restoring V to full health rather than pinpointing his health total before his soul was called down.

The effects of the splice itself were specifically stated to restore V's slots. It was a side effect of the process. No such process was done here and there's no indication that the IFCC can restore spell slots otherwise. You're assuming powers not in evidence and using them to solve a problem. Zimmer's explanation is better by far because it doesn't magically create an ability out of nowhere.

[RMS Oceanic]

While I don't believe he realizes it, Zimmerman already shot that down:



"Though on the plus side, the rejuvenating effects of the Soul Splice will allow you to start with all spell slots fully replenished."

We know that V's body was "rejuvenated" to full HP this time. The Soul Splice rejuvenation took less than 20 minutes, and didn't involve V looking at her spell book, or resting.

So, we know that the IFCC can do it, and the restoration of health (that was not promised) shows that V gets benefits from the grab that weren't explained before hand.

So unless you have a good story about how V picked up an extra bit of Int, and an extra level, without anyone really noticing, I'd say the "IFCC refills" is the best explanation.

The thing is, you're assuming a homebrewed effect to justify the lower level. Yes, there exists a homebrewed effect that does what you're describing, but there's no evidence that it was used on this occasion.

And people have been gaining stats/levels "without anyone noticing" for a while. There was no pomp and circumstance when V revealed Power Word Stun: Until that time we still believed they were level 14.

Also also, the extra int and level can be explained hand in hand: Upon reaching level 16 (and any multiple of 4), you can raise one of your ability scores by one. So going from Level 15/Int 23 to Level 16/Int 24 is perfectly acceptable.

[Knight.Anon]

V could have been lying to Laurin about how many spells she had. BTW I liked that little ray of hope that L had when she thought that V was out of spells.

[sam79]

In order for V to be telling the truth, she must have 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 24.

This looks right. But (playing Devil's Advocate here), how strong is the assumption that V is telling the truth, rather than trying a bluff to get her enemy to retreat?

ETA: ninja'd by a knight. You'd have thought I'd have heard the clanking of the armour...

[Shale]

Bluff is cross-class for wizards, depends on a stat V doesn't have much of, and would operate at a +10 DC because it would make Laurin believe that she's in significant danger.

So stats-geekery-wise, not that likely.

[Snails]

I would humbly suggest that we do not know (1) that the Ring of Wizardry conforms precisely to any in the SRD, and (2) that V does not possess something like a Pearl(s) of Power.

I admire the careful work that implies V is 16 level and Int 24, but it is not a conclusion that seems very firm to me.

Furthermore, it is possible that V is fudging the truth, and/or is counting a scroll or three.

[RMS Oceanic]

I would humbly suggest that we do not know (1) that the Ring of Wizardry conforms precisely to any in the SRD, and (2) that V does not possess something like a Pearl(s) of Power.

I admire the careful work that implies V is 16 level and Int 24, but it is not a conclusion that seems very firm to me.

At some point, we have to work on some assumptions. Not everything can be cast iron irrefutable fact due to the nature of story moments naturally overriding D&D rules.

- We assume a feat/spell/magic item/whatever works as described in the SRD unless proven otherwise. An example of being proven otherwise is Overland Flight, which V normally could not cast on other people.
- We do not assume a character has an unspoken of magic item unless evidence points to it. For example we pegged Tarquin having a ring of evasion because of taking no damage from the Flame Strike, and not knowing his class.

Furthermore, it is possible that V is fudging the truth, and/or is counting a scroll or three.

There is a bit more weight in this possibility, but when have we seen Vaarsuvius deploy this kind of tactic in the past? To my knowledge when it came to combat V is usually pretty honest about what they can do. Also keep in mind the difficulty of such a bluff and V being in a poor position to make an effective attempt of it.

[orrion]

I would humbly suggest that we do not know (1) that the Ring of Wizardry conforms precisely to any in the SRD, and (2) that V does not possess something like a Pearl(s) of Power.

I admire the careful work that implies V is 16 level and Int 24, but it is not a conclusion that seems very firm to me.

Furthermore, it is possible that V is fudging the truth, and/or is counting a scroll or three.

At that point you kill the reason the thread is around.

The comic is based on 3.5 rules, so we have to assume that the 3.5 rules are in operation unless told or shown otherwise. Likewise, it's pointless to say "Magic Item X could do this" unless there's reason to believe that a magic item is present.

V could be bluffing and/or counting scrolls, but bluffing isn't an established part of V's character and scrolls haven't had a huge presence in the comic. Also, if he had scrolls it would make even better sense to say "I have X spells left and a bunch of scrolls" to make himself seem even more formidable. Plus V makes a specific mention of discounting cantrips so he'd probably have made a mention of discounting scrolls if there were any.

[Gnome Alone]

V being Level 16 and that headband/scrunchie thing being a +6 INT item seems reasonable enough to me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Bluff is cross-class for wizards, depends on a stat V doesn't have much of, and would operate at a +10 DC because it would make Laurin believe that she's in significant danger.

So stats-geekery-wise, not that likely.

Not to mention that lie detection is Laurin's thing, and it would probably have been included in Sabine's warnings about her ("don't bluff the psion - she's Tarquin's lie detector)

GW

[GregTD]

Please, if you're going to quote me, at least get my name right. If you're not in the mood to type it out, then either shorten it (I like "zimmer") or copy and paste it from the quote box.


Well, there was that whole "reclaiming the throne for Princess Gootrude and defeating the evil sauce dragon" thing, from which she'd be the only one to get XP (dominated thralls don't count as party members for the purposes of XP distribution). Personally, despite V's exasperation at the memory, I think it'd make a decent story.

Sorry about that, I fixed it.

For those of us you don't know the new D&D, where did the +1 Int come from?

[zimmerwald1915]

Sorry about that, I fixed it.

For those of us you don't know the new D&D, where did the +1 Int come from?

Characters get to increase one ability score by one at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20.