Quess what Cowboy_ninja has......

[Cowboy_ninja]

thats right more questions!

1) what are some ways to reduce fortitude saves? besides reduceing con ( if i could reduce con easily enough i'd just reduce it until they were dead!)

2) can my friend do this? his druid gained enough levels where his animal companion lion gained enough levels to get a feat. his animal companion took armor proficency and is currently wearing a rino hide ....+2d6 to charge....lions have pounce.... and rake.... so assuming his lion hits does his bite, claw, claw, rake, and rake each do an extra 2d6?! also assuming the lion gets you in the grapple (improved grab) does the "unarmed dmg" and rake dmg also get the extra 2d6?!

[MrNexx]

thats right more questions!

1) what are some ways to reduce fortitude saves? besides reduceing con ( if i could reduce con easily enough i'd just reduce it until they were dead!)

Bestow Curse jumps instantly to mind. I'm sure there are others.

2) can my friend do this? his druid gained enough levels where his animal companion lion gained enough levels to get a feat. his animal companion took armor proficency and is currently wearing a rino hide ....+2d6 to charge....lions have pounce.... and rake.... so assuming his lion hits does his bite, claw, claw, rake, and rake each do an extra 2d6?! also assuming the lion gets you in the grapple (improved grab) does the "unarmed dmg" and rake dmg also get the extra 2d6?!

First of all, hide is medium armor, meaning he would have to spend 2 feats on this.

I would say that it grants the 2D6 once, as that's in line with what it would do for a rhino. I might even argue that it is not a "charge attack" but a full attack, so would get no bonus... I can be a jerk that way.

[Ashes]

Bestow Curse jumps instantly to mind. I'm sure there are others.

I would say that it grants the 2D6 once, as that's in line with what it would do for a rhino. I might even argue that it is not a "charge attack" but a full attack, so would get no bonus... I can be a jerk that way.

Yeah, but a pounce is defined as being "a full-attack charge" meaning that it is a charge. So that would be an unfair ruling.

[Seffbasilisk]

Fatespinner 5's 'Seal Fate'

Bestow Curse
Curse of Ill Fortune
Crushing Despair
Doom
Nybor's Gentle Reminder
Nybor's Mild Admonisment
Nybor's Wrathful Castigation
Recitation
Sand Spiral
Wave of Grief

No Druid spells that do that.

[Fizban]

1) Enervation. 1d4 negative levels, each bestows a -1 penalty on just about any check/roll/save/etc.

2) Assuming that the armor is actually barding made to fit a lion then enchanted with the properties of rhino hide, then yes.

[MrNexx]

Yeah, but a pounce is defined as being "a full-attack charge" meaning that it is a charge. So that would be an unfair ruling.

As I said, I can be a jerk that way.

[JaronK]

Well, you can, but you're making up a house rule at that point.

Yes, Lions and other full attack chargers can do incredible damage on the charge with the right gear and feats. Just wait till that druid notices Leap Attack and Shock Trooper...

JaronK

[MrNexx]

Well, you can, but you're making up a house rule at that point.

Since when have I had a problem with that?

[JaronK]

I don't know you, and it's irrelevent. For forum discussions about rules (and the OP was asking about rules) your house rules have no place. He wanted to know what the standard rules are, and your house rules are not the standard forum rules. If he'd said "can my friend do this if he plays in Mr. Nexx's game" or even "what are your house rules on this topic" then an answer of "in my game, I alter the rules like this" would be appropriate.

RAW provides us with a standard framework for discussion gameplay.

JaronK

[MrNexx]

I don't know you, and it's irrelevent. For forum discussions about rules (and the OP was asking about rules) your house rules have no place. He wanted to know what the standard rules are, and your house rules are not the standard forum rules. If he'd said "can my friend do this if he plays in Mr. Nexx's game" or even "what are your house rules on this topic" then an answer of "in my game, I alter the rules like this" would be appropriate.

RAW provides us with a standard framework for discussion gameplay.

And, indeed, not only did I answer him by the rules, I also identified my house rules statements as such.

First of all, hide is medium armor, meaning he would have to spend 2 feats on this.

Initial response: Not possible with the expenditure of one feat.

I would say that it grants the 2D6 once, as that's in line with what it would do for a rhino. I might even argue that it is not a "charge attack" but a full attack, so would get no bonus... I can be a jerk that way.

Please note the emphasis, and its identification of statements nearby as opinion. I do not necessarily erect blinking signs in 30 foot letters announcing things; grammar and word choice serve for most readers.

[Ikkitosen]

Don't you kids read the site any more? Sheesh...

Softening
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: Ray
Duration: 1 round/level or until discharged
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
A blue beam of energy springs from your hand, disrupting the molecules of any creature you strike. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to the next Fortitude saving throw it makes equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+10).

Found here.

[endersdouble]

Don't you kids read the site any more? Sheesh...

Softening
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: Ray
Duration: 1 round/level or until discharged
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
A blue beam of energy springs from your hand, disrupting the molecules of any creature you strike. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to the next Fortitude saving throw it makes equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+10).

Found here.

'Cept that's not, y'know, legal, unless your DM particularly likes houserules.

[Ikkitosen]

But surely worth a mention on The Giant's own boards

[Cowboy_ninja]

2) Assuming that the armor is actually barding made to fit a lion then enchanted with the properties of rhino hide, then yes.

is that the official ruling? like WotC/SRD rules?

[JaronK]

And, indeed, not only did I answer him by the rules, I also identified my house rules statements as such.

Initial response: Not possible with the expenditure of one feat.

Please note the emphasis, and its identification of statements nearby as opinion. I do not necessarily erect blinking signs in 30 foot letters announcing things; grammar and word choice serve for most readers.

Except your initial response wasn't actually correct (since you are allowed to wear armour without feats, and furthermore any animals that have been war trained (see MMII, or the warhorse) come with free heavy armour proficiency). Also, you said "I would say" and "I might even argue" which sounded like "my interpretation of RAW" as opposed to "my alteration of RAW."

No matter though.

To Cowboy: Yes, it's RAW. Any armour can be made as barding at increased cost (for large critters, it's four times the cost, two times the weight for barding, but that multiplier is only to the base cost of the item before enchantment). It's also worth noting that many DMs assume magic items resize for their wearers, so that may apply too. Note that animals don't have all slots. They don't, for example, have braclet slots or, I believe, ring slots, though they do have a saddle slot.

JaronK

[Tellah]

...and furthermore any animals that have been war trained (see MMII, or the warhorse) come with free heavy armour proficiency).

Animal companions are "war trained?" Wow, I'm never playing anything but a druid in your games.

Animal Companion (Ex): A druid may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the following creatures are also available: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid.

The warhorse isn't even in that list. MrNexx wins this one: your animal companion needs two feats to use medium barding, or must suck terribly at combat.

[Cowboy_ninja]

Except your initial response wasn't actually correct (since you are allowed to wear armour without feats, and furthermore any animals that have been war trained (see MMII, or the warhorse) come with free heavy armour proficiency). Also, you said "I would say" and "I might even argue" which sounded like "my interpretation of RAW" as opposed to "my alteration of RAW."

No matter though.

To Cowboy: Yes, it's RAW. Any armour can be made as barding at increased cost (for large critters, it's four times the cost, two times the weight for barding, but that multiplier is only to the base cost of the item before enchantment). It's also worth noting that many DMs assume magic items resize for their wearers, so that may apply too. Note that animals don't have all slots. They don't, for example, have braclet slots or, I believe, ring slots, though they do have a saddle slot.

JaronK

i- have no doubt that the lion actually CAN wear the armor. what shocks me is the cuh-razy damage that lion is dishing out with his pounce attack. THAT is what im questioning here. is the 2d6 applied to EVERY attack? including the rakes? or is it just added to the first attack?

-also about the "lower my opponents fortitude" question. how many of those spells can be in potion/oil form? im sure i can splash some unwanted oil on a pinned oponent right?

[Abd al-Azrad]

It is actually an interesting point that this specific question, about the lion's full attack charge and its interaction with other charge special abilities, seems to be part of a larger question about how to deal with a full attack charge in general. Already a powerful ability that rather dramatically changes tactical fighting, where the first fighter to charge is also the first to receive an AC-penalized enemy's full attack under usual circumstances, I just have never found a satisfactory answer to how special abilities apply to extra attacks given by, say, the Psionic Lion's Charge power or the Pouncing Charge maneuver. For instance, the bonuses granted by Leap Attack.

Conventional wisdom would seem to limit such bonuses only to the first attack of the charge, thus preventing a condition known to scholars as ridiculous damage multiplication. However, with apparently no rule to guide us, the question is still open to interpretation by individual DMs.

[The J Pizzel]

I think you would add the damage overall. Not per attack. Like a regular charge. That how I see it. I admittedly have nothing to back that up though.

jp

[JaronK]

Animal companions are "war trained?" Wow, I'm never playing anything but a druid in your games.

Riding dogs are war trained automatically, actually, by RAW. I didn't say all were, just that you could do it... and the War Beast template is an applied template, which means you can apply it to your animal companion by training it for two months and making a DC 20 + HD handle animal check (which all druids can do). Most DMs impose a penalty on the bonuses the animal gets as an animal companion after war training. This is all RAW.

The warhorse isn't even in that list. MrNexx wins this one: your animal companion needs two feats to use medium barding, or must suck terribly at combat.

But the riding dog is.

[JaronK]

i- have no doubt that the lion actually CAN wear the armor. what shocks me is the cuh-razy damage that lion is dishing out with his pounce attack. THAT is what im questioning here. is the 2d6 applied to EVERY attack? including the rakes? or is it just added to the first attack?

Every attack... and you know, it may sound like a lot right now, but it's really not. It's maybe an extra 6d6 on average damage, only on turns he charges. Compared to the damage many others can put out (even the druid himself in many wild shaped forms) it's actually a pretty small amount of damage.

Now, if this lion grabs Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper (which I expect him to), then it will be a lot of damage, but any melee type can do that (they can't pounce, but he can't power attack with a two handed weapon for double damage or take levels in Frenzied Berserker for Supreme Power Attack), and that rhino hide will pale by comparison.

JaronK

[MrNexx]

FWIW, the feat "Rhinoceros Tribe Charge" from Shining South is similar to the benefit from Rhino Hide armor, but it only applies to a single attack per charge, even when you get multiple attacks per charge.