So I accidentally killed a PC

[FabulousFizban]

Warning wall of text

My party ran into the BBEG last week and I put them in a fight with him. (he is leveling up with them so currently he is at an appropriate CR) I wanted them to see what they are up against and give them a little RP time to hate the guy (What they are up against btw is an antipaladin graveknight). The idea was for them to beat him and thwart his evil plan after which he would contingency spell away.

The rogue made a play to join his team and betray the party, then sneak attacked BBEG while right next to him. Actually the whole party except the paladin pretended to join him. I didn't know what they were up to and thought the night was going to end very quickly and poorly for my paladin PC.

It was a brilliant ploy that put them all right next to him ready to beat the crap out of him. The problem was he won initiative and was understandably miffed at the rogue, sooooo he channel smited him... I was unaware that my player had built his rogue with an 8 con - I know, oversight on my part - aaaannd I one shoted him, straight to negative con. (two-handed power attacking channel smiting graveknights hit rather hard)

I allowed the player to make a bargain with his dark god in order to come back to life due to my oops factor. I ended the session with him alive but seriously messed up, like slashed wide open.

So my question is two-fold:
1) did I handle this ok?
2)I want there to be real (mechanical and RP) reprocussions for him having died. What should the penalty for him having died and then made a dark bargain be?

tldr; see #2 above.

(They did finally manage to beat the guy, but the whole party was nearly ko'd. I think they take their enemy a little more seriously now.)

[Lord Vukodlak]

He built a rogue made of glass the PC is at fault. You have a con of 8 you suffer for it. Come back when you accidentally kill a PC while your a fellow PC.

[hymer]

I'm writing from the perspective that it is not the GM's job to keep PCs alive. It is his job to give them interesting and appropriate challenges.

When you get into melee against guys with big swords, and you con is 8? You're taking your life into your hands, no time to get butterfingers and lose initiative. He paid the price and died.
Sounds like you're playing a game where raising the dead is easy, albeit expensive. Those rules likely carry the cost of dying. Use them.

[DMfromTheAbyss]

I would not feel bad for this, if anything you have gone above and beyond in your coming up with a way to bring the character back quickly into the story.

If you don't let the PC's fail occasionally, they won't have much of a sense of challenge, and thus of accomplishment. Don't worry you won't turn into a "kiler DM" overnight. But while being a fair referee for the game you will occasionally see a PC death if you are properly challenging them.

As to the mechanical repercussions.. I'd say instead of mechanical repercussions, have story repercussions. Make the party (including said weak constitutioned rogue) have to steal his soul back from the dark god who "helped him out" Don't charge them mechanically for failure, make an adventure out of it. Preferably one the characters find difficult, challenging and obnoxious, but that the players find fun, and that adds depth to the story instead of taking a weak character and penalizing him further, that just leads to more power balance problems down the line.

[Tanuki Tales]

This...got moved back to the top of the subforum?

[The_Werebear]

So my question is two-fold:
1) did I handle this ok?
2)I want there to be real (mechanical and RP) reprocussions for him having died. What should the penalty for him having died and then made a dark bargain be?

1) Sounds like you handled it fine. You weren't expecting to kill PC's, and you gave him an out without it being free. Not to mention, as was said above, taking an 8 con character into melee is taking your life into your own hands.

2) RP wise, have him manifest a mark of the Dark god. You know best what symbols or symptoms will be most appropriate to the setting (as it sounds homebrew). I would make it so that it's moderately annoying to conceal, but not impossible. A few quick ideas off the top of my head: Oddly colored (read, black or red) eyes, a stench of brimstone, a large tattoo indelibly engraved on his flesh, shadows draw longer when he enters an area. Enough so that he's found out, everyone will know what he's done, and that he's tainted himself. Furthermore, whatever the terms of the bargain, the Dark powers going to attempt to redeem it someday, either taking the rogue's soul or demanding a favor he won't be able to refuse (or explain to the party).

Mechanically, you can probably just slap him with the Raise Dead penalty (one lost level, if level one, 2 lost con) and call it good. It sounds like that's about the power level of the effect he got.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It's totally cool. Sometimes, the chips don't fall where you think they would. Death is part of the scope of things, and I think if you shield your players from death, that takes some of the punch out of things. Plus, since they were up against THE recurring villain, it's much better than if a character were to die by a fluke against a chump NPC.

Fairness is the best course of action, and fairness means being honest with the outcomes. Fairness means letting a character die if they should die.

[InQbait]

I think you handled the encounter fairly well, DM.
The only thing I would change is have the grave knight attack someone else besides the 8 con rogue, maybe instead the PC with the highest CHA score?
If the rogue is the one with the highest CHA score, then I guess I have no qualms about this whole situation.
But yeah, I like the fact the rogue had to do a dark bargain with his dark god to be resurrected. That gives me an idea for a character....
Anywho, tell me more about this dark god that the rogue worships. Only by knowing more can I possibly give you any advice/ideas on the conditions of the arrangement.

[Brookshw]

Welcome to the club, someone get this man a jacket

But no, you handled this just fine, you could have even just left him dead and it still would have been fine. If it wasn't an unbalanced encounter you've nothing to worry about. The dice gods are fickle, some times they give, some times they take. Don't worry about it anymore than if you were playing monopoly (shudder) and someone landed on "go directly to jail".

[CarpeGuitarrem]

One warning on the resurrection: it shouldn't turn into a "hey, this dark god has my back any time I die!" situation. I know I wouldn't waste my time and effort on somebody who kept getting themselves killed. You need to talk through what this bargain was, with the player. Figure out what they're willing to agree to--but negotiate hard. The dark god has plenty of heft, and they might want some mighty massive things of the rogue.

[FabulousFizban]

Thanks guys. I think I know what I'll do now. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[SethoMarkus]

A lot of stories that have the "deal with the devil/dark god/higher power to come back to life" thing usually have a steep price to go with it. I'd make sure the dark god made it clear that this is a one-time freebie for the rogue. If he dies again, he stays dead. Also, make it clear that the dark god cannot undo the death, he can merely shift it. For the rogue to come back to life, someone he loves must now suffer his burden of death.

This still allows you to have the "oops, my bad" fix, it makes it clear that the rogue cannot exploit this (nor should he want to do it again), and there are real in-story repercussions that he will have to face.

[FabulousFizban]

another one of my party's many, many enemies (they looted the temple of saraenrae for christsakes!) is a minor devil that tries to manipulate them every now and then. I'm going to have him show up and inform my player that he purchased his soul from his god and it was the devil, not his god, that raised him, and now literally owns him.

This should give me some opportunities for some fun sessions. I like the mark of Cain suggestion from werebear too. think I'll do that as well.

(The devil was the one who tricked them into accidentally releasing the graveknight)

[ReaderAt2046]

I have a really simple idea for a way to exploit this. The dark god in question didn't just return the rogue to life, he's continuously keeping him alive, and he can withdraw this gift and cause the rogue to die again at his whim. Sometime later on, the rogue's god is going to want him to do something that is tremendously risky or screws over the party, and the god makes it clear that if the rogue refuses he falls down dead--BAM! Easy way to make this bargain have a pretty high cost, without seriously hindering the player's effectiveness.

[Segev]

If the god is particularly evil and/or cruel, it could be that he's going to protect his investment by keeping the rogue alive even when the rogue should die again, as long as the rogue works for him.

The key to making the rogue, who initially might be quite pleased that he's immortal, realize he needs to watch his deaths a bit more carefully will be when he realizes that, each time he dies, the dark god claims another living being's life of the Rogue's race in order to fuel the bargain. Make it like that movie where death "missed" people. Final Destination, I think it was? The Rogue's death is passed to somebody else of his race of lower level (or equal, if the rogue's only level 1) with whom the Rogue interacted recently. Make sure it's generally NOT a good thing, and even when it is, it's creepy. But the deaths are "accidents" that are strangely reminiscent of how the rogue SHOULD have died.

Make sure the innocent far outweigh any other sort, just so the rogue feels some qualms (or slips deeper into evil). If he slips willingly to evil, the god could start demanding the rogue collect the sacrifices personally. If he doesn't, the god could bargain with him for bigger-than-normal but not-worth-killing-if-refused orders: "I will release one of those whose death has bought your life to a more worthy afterlife if you do this for me."

[BrainFreeze]

I like this, but I would run on a more Hellblazer side. Give the player a decision in character, it should be horrible. If the player gives in to what the God wants then they are confronted with hiding that from the other players. Should the player choose to deny this "request" they are put in the position of dreading their actual death due to it forceably returning them to their God's "good" graces.

[Callin]

Why would a God sell off one of his followers soul? That does not make sense to me. Even for an Evil type God of Rogues and Thieves.

[ReaderAt2046]

Why would a God sell off one of his followers soul? That does not make sense to me. Even for an Evil type God of Rogues and Thieves.

It seems to me that soul trading would be a big business in the Underworld, kind of like the RL slave trade.

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah, rushing into melee with 8 Con and a d6 hit die is practically begging for death. PCs, regardless of their role, should never have less than 12 Con. Any PC in melee should have at least a 14.

Maybe the demon puts his mark on the Rogue, which allows the demon to recall his soul for good 'eatin in case he stops following the demon's orders. So the Rogue gets his life back, but he needs to spend it appeasing his master or else he scores a one-way ticket to hell (even if he got out, he's pretty much guaranteed to go there anyway for dealing with devils).

[FabulousFizban]

These are all awesome suggestions and I intend to make use of them.

[HKR]

What if the wound that killed him never closes and keeps bleeding all the time even when he is at full hp? That would be a pretty annoying consequence of dying but wouldn't significantly weaken the pc. It would be a constant reminder to the pc that the only thing keeping him alive is divine power.

[SassyQuatch]

You have obviously failed. Next time kill off a PC intentionally. It feels much better.

[Cealocanth]

We have all made this mistake before. Accidentally killing a PC is probably one of the rites for a beginning DM. The key is to recognize if it was your fault or the PC's. Usually, it's both. In this case, most of the blame lies on the PC. A rogue with an 8 Con will die fairly quickly unless he's got a good healer, good gear, or a really good tank. As a DM, you should have probably known your PC's stats a bit better.

Even so, take this as a learning experience. Soon you will realize, like all DMs eventually do, that PC deaths are part of the game. You designed a fair monster that had fair powers, and your glass cannon took the brunt of the impact. The PC needs to learn to not jump into the middle of combat if he can't handle it, and to not poke tigers if they don't want to get mauled. You need to learn that sometimes unexpected things happen and you have to roll with the punches.

I guess the real question is, is your PC okay with it? I have a player that gets reduced to tears when his characters go unconscious. I have several players who start rolling up new characters immediately, minds fresh with new character ideas. The game is about fun, and if you're still having fun, then an accidental death isn't that big of an issue.

[TheOOB]

PC's die, it's part of the package. A PC can go from level 1 and 200 gold to level 10 and thousands and thousands of gold in a year, but they might die getting there. If a player can't die in combat, it takes all the risk and danger out of it. Part of the fun of D&D(for me at least) is that my build, my actions, help determine whether or not my character lives or dies.

A couple of weeks ago my sorcerer died(getting hit by two falling objects didn't help, but a 100 ft fall did him in), so I rolled a new character. Another party member wanted to try an arcane caster, so his character retired and we switched roles. Now instead of a fae blooded sorcerer with a bunch of animal friends I'm a samurai inquisitor. I don't consider that a loss, just different.

[Leon]

PC Deaths happen, being a Risk taking Adventure has its downsides.

Make the Dark bargain have a Important aspect that wont show its head until the need/situation is Dire

[andresrhoodie]

I'd have the god have a price. Its a god of thieves so make the rogue tithe a certain amount of stolen gold each week to stay alive. And it must be stolen, not looted.

[Remmirath]

Personally, I would've just let the rogue die. He dug his own grave, so to speak, and I don't like to pull punches. However, I realise that this doesn't work in all groups, since some players get miffed at that sort of thing and it just isn't in some people's play style.

Given that you didn't want the rogue to die, I think you handled it reasonably well -- certainly better than just acting as though the villain actually missed after all or fudging the damage number or some such.

For bargains and that sort of thing, I usually give some sort of bonus (in this case, that could simply be the resurrection) in exchange for some sort of penalty (could be an ability score penalty, XP loss, some mission that they must carry out in character, some favour that they owe that'll be called upon at a later date, that sort of thing). Having the wound only seal up so long as the rogue is in good with his god occurs to me as a possibility in this case; if he deviates from what his god wants him to be doing, he could start taking damage as a warning, or something to that effect, ending with outright dying if he goes completely against his god's plan for him.

[CombatOwl]

Warning wall of text

My party ran into the BBEG last week and I put them in a fight with him. (he is leveling up with them so currently he is at an appropriate CR) I wanted them to see what they are up against and give them a little RP time to hate the guy (What they are up against btw is an antipaladin graveknight). The idea was for them to beat him and thwart his evil plan after which he would contingency spell away.

The rogue made a play to join his team and betray the party, then sneak attacked BBEG while right next to him. Actually the whole party except the paladin pretended to join him. I didn't know what they were up to and thought the night was going to end very quickly and poorly for my paladin PC.

It was a brilliant ploy that put them all right next to him ready to beat the crap out of him. The problem was he won initiative and was understandably miffed at the rogue, sooooo he channel smited him... I was unaware that my player had built his rogue with an 8 con - I know, oversight on my part - aaaannd I one shoted him, straight to negative con. (two-handed power attacking channel smiting graveknights hit rather hard)

I allowed the player to make a bargain with his dark god in order to come back to life due to my oops factor. I ended the session with him alive but seriously messed up, like slashed wide open.

So my question is two-fold:
1) did I handle this ok?
2)I want there to be real (mechanical and RP) reprocussions for him having died. What should the penalty for him having died and then made a dark bargain be?

tldr; see #2 above.

(They did finally manage to beat the guy, but the whole party was nearly ko'd. I think they take their enemy a little more seriously now.)

That's kind of what's supposed to happen to glass cannon. Are they higher than level 4? If so, they should probably be able to (collectively) afford for someone to raise dead. Make them expend resources for it. As for penalties? Same as being raised from the dead, which for Pathfinder is two negative levels that need to get restored by restoration.

[Slipperychicken]

Personally, I would've just let the rogue die. He dug his own grave, so to speak, and I don't like to pull punches. However, I realise that this doesn't work in all groups, since some players get miffed at that sort of thing and it just isn't in some people's play style.

I agree. It seems like it was a fair death.


[Rant Incoming]

Personally, I dislike how easily PCs in most games can "access" gods. If any heretical loser can mutter a short prayer to get Pelor's full attention and cut a deal with him, then what's the point of Clerics or Paladins? Why would anyone care about what oracles have to say? What makes them so special if everyone and his dog can already chat up the gods? Why would the Commune spell even exist? It just sucks so much mystery and wonder out of a setting's cosmology if anyone can just ring up the gods like they were a celestial version of tech support.

EDIT: I really feel that if a PC who isn't a high-level divine spellcaster tries to make an ordinary nonmagical prayer, there shouldn't be any kind of response. Spirits and gods get prayers all the time, and they certainly have better things to do than listen to your own petty personal problems (that's partly what your local clergy are there for; because Pelor doesn't have time for your mortal BS). Even demons should only be accessible with a proper ritual and blood sacrifice (complete with pentagrams and other symbols, candles, magic words, a Knowledge (Religion) check as per BoVD sacrifice rules, the whole shebang). Basically, if you want to make a deal with the universe's darkest powers, you have to work for it. And even then, you're still ultimately going to get screwed over by the deal because demons don't mess around.