An Allegory

[Red Fel]

Alright, I'm working on a build and I could use your help.

It's a roughly Tier 3 game, my party is a Green Salad Ceasar 4/ House 7/ Crouton 1, a Tuna Seared Ahi 5/ Sushi 7, a Beef Sirloin 12, and my character, a multiclass Poultry build. I was planning on going with a caster build, Grilled 7/ Biscuits 2/ Rice 3, but I've been considering switching out Grilled casting for Fried casting (with the Cornflake Breadcrumbs variant). I've taken the Multibiscuit feat, which increases my Biscuits/day but decreases their size, and Onions in the Breading, because I have a fondness for flavor feats. I'm still trying to figure out what I can do to fill out this build, without outperforming the rest of the party.

The DM has banned Pork classes and Stormwrack (the Tuna is the DM's GF, so she's exempt), along with any Dessert PrCs.

Suggestions?

[lytokk]

did you miss a meal or something? Cause now I'm hungry. and you made my head hurt.

[Berenger]

Just stay away from strawberry ice cream.

[Red Fel]

Just stay away from strawberry ice cream.

Like I said, the DM has banned Dessert PrCs.

Out of curiosity, though, why do so many people hate that class? I get that it came out of one of the splatbooks, but still, Strawberry has some good abilities, and qualifies you for Neapolitan.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Red Fel
...and Onions in the Breading, because I have a fondness for flavor feats.

Ba-Doom-Boom. And ouch.



Otherwise...not sure if I grok what this is supposed to be. "Allegory" and the famed blue text are creating some oscillating asynchronies in my mind.

When I think "allegory" I think early medieval literature. Maybe this is a case where being an English major doesn't improve one's comprehension.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Honestly a 2 level dip into Pan Fried Ribeye with the Pan Gravy variant would round out the party. Or you could take the Escoffier PrC to get the Escoffier modified casting.

[Palanan]

Gorrammit, now I want cookies 'n' cream.



And Buffalo wings. Probably not in that order.

[Seclora]

Switching Grilled casting for Fried Casting is an excellent decision, definitely do so. And flavor wise, it works better with Onions in the Breading.
I personally try to avoid anything that makes my biscuits smaller, but there's no denying the increased versatility of more biscuits per day.
Since you're trying to avoid outperforming the party, try the Gravy feat chain. It's not nearly as good as the Cheese feats, but it has decent synergy with some of your Beef Sirloin's class features and should help your character meld well into the rest of the party.

[Traab]

Just so long as you avoid the panko breading of the fried casting, remember, this is tier 3, you dont want to overpower the rest of the group. I have found though, that going for a 3 dip in cajun seasoning helps to bridge the gaps in a group of that configuration, and brings it all together.

[Red Fel]

Honestly a 2 level dip into Pan Fried Ribeye with the Pan Gravy variant would round out the party. Or you could take the Escoffier PrC to get the Escoffier modified casting.

Switching Grilled casting for Fried Casting is an excellent decision, definitely do so. And flavor wise, it works better with Onions in the Breading.
I personally try to avoid anything that makes my biscuits smaller, but there's no denying the increased versatility of more biscuits per day.
Since you're trying to avoid outperforming the party, try the Gravy feat chain. It's not nearly as good as the Cheese feats, but it has decent synergy with some of your Beef Sirloin's class features and should help your character meld well into the rest of the party.

I've been hearing good things about Gravy feats and variants. That's from Sauces and Sorcery, right? I don't have the books in front of me, but don't those have a Garlic prereq?

[Slipperychicken]

It's so sad to see GM's ban Pork. It's not even that strong; just versatile (like I just made a An Egg6/Ham3/Cheese1/Omelette10 and it worked out pretty well). As long as you don't go into some kind of weird Corn Dogs shenanigans (like getting Bun Substitution (Pancake) to dodge metataste penalties for taking Rapid Syrup as a Pork), you should be fine. Most of the time, Pork is just a slightly dry stand-in for when your Beef/Filet Mignon/etc isn't available. I mean, I understand if he's trying to run a Kosher game, but still.

As for desserts... I wouldn't be surprised if someone pulled out a Fried Oreo build on him early in his career. It can be hard to re-allow desserts after seeing overpowered BS like that.

Otherwise...not sure if I grok what this is supposed to be. "Allegory" and the famed blue text are creating some oscillating asynchronies in my mind.

When I think "allegory" I think early medieval literature. Maybe this is a case where being an English major doesn't improve one's comprehension.

Isn't allegory basically an extended metaphor? Like Animal Farm being an allegory for revolution?

[Kazyan]

I've been hearing good things about Gravy feats and variants. That's from Sauces and Sorcery, right? I don't have the books in front of me, but don't those have a Garlic prereq?

Look at the Garlic cookbook sometime. You'll lose out on some Gravy feats that you probably won't want for this build anyway, but there are several easy ways to qualify as having Garlic without actually adding any.

[PaucaTerrorem]

It's the Garlic Powder ability you get from the Paragon Levels. It's not as awesome as the Roasted Garlic Feat, but it gets it done in a "pinch".

[Spore]

Grilled 7? Are you insane? Everyone knows steak-based builds only flourish with the medium-rare feat chain.

[Cog]

Look at the Garlic cookbook sometime. You'll lose out on some Gravy feats that you probably won't want for this build anyway, but there are several easy ways to qualify as having Garlic without actually adding any.

Garlic is such a traditional, flavorful component. Sure, those workarounds are RAW, but do you really think the chefs intended to let you skip Garlic outright?

[PaucaTerrorem]

Shouldn't. That's why it kills me when my chef buys it in. Keep telling him we should keep using real garlic for everything. This is why I need to get these resumes out today.

[Red Fel]

It's so sad to see GM's ban Pork. It's not even that strong; just versatile (like I just made a An Egg6/Ham3/Cheese1/Omelette10 and it worked out pretty well). As long as you don't go into some kind of weird Corn Dogs shenanigans (like getting Bun Substitution (Pancake) to dodge metataste penalties for taking Rapid Syrup as a Pork), you should be fine. Most of the time, Pork is just a slightly dry stand-in for when your Beef/Filet Mignon/etc isn't available. I mean, I understand if he's trying to run a Kosher game, but still.

As for desserts... I wouldn't be surprised if someone pulled out a Fried Oreo build on him early in his career. It can be hard to re-allow desserts after seeing overpowered BS like that.

He is running a Kosher game, actually. Although I still can't figure out why he banned all of Stormwrack, instead of just the Crabs & Crustaceans chapter.

And I keep hearing that Omelette is OP. I mean, getting Meat and Veggie casting, full progression, is pretty potent, but I figure it's just another theurge class, like Chop Suey, right?

Look at the Garlic cookbook sometime. You'll lose out on some Gravy feats that you probably won't want for this build anyway, but there are several easy ways to qualify as having Garlic without actually adding any.

Actually, I was thinking of taking Onion and Garlic, which would let me use Onions in the Breading to satisfy Garlic prereqs. Unless you think there's an advantage to taking Garlic feats directly?

It's the Garlic Powder ability you get from the Paragon Levels. It's not as awesome as the Roasted Garlic Feat, but it gets it done in a "pinch".

I don't know, I think our Sirloin was thinking of taking Garlic Powder. I figure, why duplicate the same result, you know? Besides, he's using a Spice Rub build, I figure he'll benefit more from it.

But Roasted Garlic... I hadn't thought about it, but that's a pretty good feat for a Fried/Rice build. That's a good point.

[Joe the Rat]

No, you really want Fried over Garlic. A Fried dip works well with just about everything. Garlic is good, especially a Garlic/Butter mix, but there are some things that should never be dipped in Garlic/Butter.

If you do want to go Gravy, check out some of the other PrCs and feats that build off that Broth prereq. They can be pure Bullion.

[Kazyan]

Garlic is such a traditional, flavorful component. Sure, those workarounds are RAW, but do you really think the chefs intended to let you skip Garlic outright?

No, but page 8 of Complete Substitutes says, in no uncertain terms, that you're supposed to get creative with substitutes. They only do wonky things with the Recipe As Intended if you use a bunch of them in the same build or get waaaay out there. YMMV on what the latter actually means to you; even I don't agree with some of the tricks. But it looks like OP will be going for Garlic anyway. (I don't want to derail this with a RAW/RAI debate.)

[Joe the Rat]

No, but page 8 of Complete Substitutes says, in no uncertain terms, that you're supposed to get creative with substitutes. They only do wonky things with the Recipe As Intended if you use a bunch of them in the same build or get waaaay out there. YMMV on what the latter actually means to you; even I don't agree with some of the tricks. But it looks like OP will be going for Garlic anyway. (I don't want to derail this with a RAW/RAI debate.)

Yeah, people are quite serious about the issues with RAW Chicken.

[Slipperychicken]

And I keep hearing that Omelette is OP. I mean, getting Meat and Veggie casting, full progression, is pretty potent, but I figure it's just another theurge class, like Chop Suey, right?

Surprisingly, I didn't take Veggie in that one (just using Omelette to progress meat), which I should have mentioned before since it's normally such a no-brainer. It was a low-op meal (there was a Corn Flakes/Raisins cereal involved), so I had to tone it down to allow everyone else time to shine.

[Lord Haart]

Would you like green eggs and ham?

[Deox]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Baked 5 then entering Twice Baked and picking up the Potato line to progress Baked and potato. It's originally 3.0, but hasn't been updated. Fowls and Pheasants, IIRC.

[Telonius]

Just avoid the Open-Faced prestige class. It's really a trap option, nothing good ever came of it. (Please, leave partially-charged hot peppers out of the discussion).

[GolemsVoice]

Your setting (and likely the people you play with) is anti-vegetarianist. You should open a thread about making a non-anti-vegetarianist setting.

[Zweisteine]

Would you like green eggs and ham?

No, no, no. From the sound of the DM, third party books, especially parodies like that one, wouldn't be allowed.

Not to mention that ham is pork, which is explicitly banned.

[Chronos]

Quoth Telonius:

Just avoid the Open-Faced prestige class. It's really a trap option, nothing good ever came of it. (Please, leave partially-charged hot peppers out of the discussion).

Everyone always says that, but I don't think they realize the true potential. Folks always assume that the one level of bread has to be on the bottom, but it's not actually required, and you can get some great options by taking it on the top, instead.

[GoblinArchmage]

He is running a Kosher game, actually. Although I still can't figure out why he banned all of Stormwrack, instead of just the Crabs & Crustaceans chapter.

It doesn't look like he is being that strict about the Kosher rules, though. I mean, he is allowing a Beef Sirloin and a Green Salad Ceasar in the same meal. Are you just not allowed to break Kosher rules within a single dish, because RAW states that it's supposed to be the whole meal.

And by banning all of Stormwrack, he is leaving out a lot of Kosher options, like the Lox PrC. People say that it is closer to Tier One or Two, but that's only if you combine it with the Bagel feats.

I'm also surprised that nobody has gone the Kugel route, but then again, that is pretty obviously Tier One.

[Shred-Bot]

This is the greatest thread of all time.

Definitely switch from Grilled to Fried... Grilled is only worth it if you're going with a Vow of Low Carb build, and that tends to be underpowered, as sugars and starches will always form a significant portion of your Taste by Level.

(Unless of course you'll be using Chaos Souffle on those weak Healthy Feats... but I guess that level of cheese will get a Joy of Cooking lobbed at your head.)

[GolemsVoice]

I'd also suggest looking for a non-fat build with early entry in Master of Vegetables. Vegetarian feats might look underpowered, but if your DM allows a liberal reading of the MoV rules, you can use any dish that was cooked in vegetable oil for the purpose of Vegetarian feats.