Sorcerers, and other things that dont make sense.

[hyenahyena]

I've been playing DnD for a few months now, and taken the time to totally read through quite a few of the manuals (I'm kinda lame like that, I like to know about stuff) And after reading through all this stuff, there are a few things which really really make my mind-brain twitch.
I'm truly all for fantasy settings, and vague explinations on things, I like mystery!

And some dnd things are 'very' mysterious. Mysterious to the point where you find yourself thinking questions like 'why on earth would..' or 'what in gods sweet name does this..' or even 'What were they thinking?'

Like, I'm just curious if anyone else sees things my way? Or am I just completely wrong here.




Sorcerer.

The first thing about the game, spesifically classes, that made me curious, was the sorcerer class. I think im the only person in the world who sees things this way, but Seriously, if you If you compare wizard to sorcerer, the two side by side, the differences are pretty much only numbers on a page. Even the explination that sorcerers have some deep talent for magic doesn't make a lick of logic, when you hold it up to what wizards are.

Wizards cast arcane spells from years of study. They devote their lives to the mastery of magic. These guys are the kids that got good grades, went to harvard, and got a masters in nuclear physics.

In this respect, a sorcerer is like a child who was born knowing masters-level nuclear physics. Something like this should barely be counted as its regular race, this is a creature with an inborn knowledge of magic.

I can totally deal with having magic as creative natural talent. But these guys cast the same spells as a wizard. That's like a haiku poet knowing bits of rocket science. The fact that sorcerers know only a limited amount of spells doesn't dismiss this. The most original thing they have going for them, is spontaneous casting which does support the creative aspect. But, im an artist, Creativity is 'not' simply choosing which drawing i want to draw from a pre-made list.
Honestly if sorcerers are what they claim to be, then they definately should not pull spells straight from the arcane tree. I dont know what they should do.
The way the warlock class was done, comes to mind however. (ps, i liked that class)

To me, it seems the sorcerer class is at best, an interesting wizard variant.

And at worst a poor attempt during the initial conceptualisation of dnd, to give arcane magic another class that uses it.




~~~monk.
The other class that really, really makes me want to point fingers and say accusing things, is 'Monk'.
Holy oh my god.

You can pretty much list the things that seem unrelated to martial arts/monks.

when do martial artists get to run super fast? Have you ever seen a karate champion in the 100 meter sprints at the olympics?
By level 20, which i do understand is meant to represent an epically powerful human being, but they're running +60feet. And if they've taken the run feet, thats what, the average human is doing 30+60x5 ?
Thats faster then a sprinting horse! Something like 75 feet per second. These guys could run at you like a torpedo. Roll save vs human bullet.

Also, being an good martial artist lets them teleport once a week. huh. You know i did karate for 5 years and we never covered that. I've heard of a lot of weird things to do with asian monks, like levitation, xi gong (aka, punching people yards away with your ki), but ive never heard of being able to walk through walls. once a week.

Also, monks. What relation to religion do these guys have? aside from knowledge>religion. Theres a lot of references to martial arts and meditation and ki, but no spesific religious conatations. Why not just rename the class 'saw an old kung fu movie once' and be done with it.

I can see the in depth research they did into martial arts and monks when designing this.

'err..yeah like, we saw this film once..it was all in, chinese, these dudes jumped around a lot ,and like...punched stuff, then he used this thing and he hit a guy then he thought about him dying and he did....yeah. He was a monk'

I can see that happening. Also, how come all martial artists all practice the same martial art? What a magical world it is, when there is a universal martial art practiced by all 'monks', probably high on a mountain top somewhere in a sodding monestary behind large iron doors. It's almost like a bloody terry pratchett concept. And I love terry pratchett. But that doesnt make the idea of it any better. (never forget rule number 1!)

And ive read complete warrior, ive seen the tactical feats and weapon style feats. Which is all very well and good. But in a land filled with wizards who can choose from hundreds of spells, fighters who can specialise in tons of weapons and still be effective, a monk just seems so...boring. When really martial arts should be 'more' varied and interesting then simply hitting people with a sword.
The oriental adventures had some pretty ok stuff in terms of martial arts, but it wasnt monk spesific and given the environment of a fantasy setting, i dont understand why people need to limit themselves to 'crane style' when there are animals like blink dogs and actual unicorns running around. So much potential.

And i 'have' redesigned monks for my own games, took me over a week, and i damn well invented 8 more bloody martial art styles and how to incorporate them. so its not like im complaining and done nothing.

Ok! i think its asleep time.
if your ead any of that, thank you : ) id appreciate any feed back as to whether or not any of that made sense.

[Starbuck_II]

Sorc needs his flavor to be better supported.
Flavor says inborn magic, but he needs everything the wizard needs. He just has Spell Mastery for all of his spells (in mechanics).

Multiple people have created Sorceror Fixes.
1) Some because theyare underpowered in their opinion.
2) Better support Flavor
3) Bettee support flavor and power.
4) Make them unique and not just spontaous Wizards without bonus feats

The best made Monk remake in my opinion is Lotus Cranes:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=608534

He has the monk school ideas. Full bab (but lost Flurry and unarmed damage 1 die).

Monks are WotC's way of trying to make unarmed combatants yet still hook it with mysticalism.
They should have just made a Mystical one and full bab unarmed combat one. Both make more sense than conbining them.

[Toliudar]

I won't comment too much on the monk: for me, that class was never just about taking a martial arts mastery and putting it into the fantasy context. That's why the "schools of training" variants of monk leave me cold. I saw it as a class that called upon inner spirituality to allow for some extraordinary (I'd say magical, but then we get into an anti-magic field conversation, and that's not the intent of this game) effects.

What the heck? Many of these professions link back to Jungian symbols, and often have relatively little to do with their real-world counterparts. Why do Barbarians get to run faster than rogues? Why can divine spells with somatic components be cast while encased in 50 pounds of armour, but magic missile has a hard time. Because it's evoking a specific set of archetypes primarily from myth and literature.


Okay, the sorcerer. I loved your comment about

That's like a haiku poet knowing bits of rocket science.

Because I think that that's not a bad analogy. If wizards are the scientists of this fantasy world, sorcerers are its artists, its idiot savants, and its mad geniuses. They have an intuitive grasp of how things work, and can exploit them. It comes back to the spirit of such scientists as Feynmann and Einstein, saying that creativity is the foundation of science. In many fantasy worlds, the intuitive ability to grasp and manipulate the forces of the universe is a familiar theme. The sorcerer fits right in in many of these worlds.

If your objection is with the spells coming out the same as some wizard spells, then change some of their fluff (my sorcerer's magic missiles come out of his chest and spiral in on their target - but that doesn't change the mechanics of the spell), or encouage PC's playing sorcerers to customize one or more of their spells. There's tons of information on how to do so.

Alternately, you could restrict some spells in your world, diverging the wizard and sorcerer spell lists. Hell, you could choose to block off whole schools from one or the other, if you want to increase the differentiation. Alternately, there are a thousand RP/setting devices you can use to play up the differences between wizards and sorcerers.

[Gralamin]

By level 20, which i do understand is meant to represent an epically powerful human being, but they're running +60feet. And if they've taken the run feet, thats what, the average human is doing 30+60x5 ?
Thats faster then a sprinting horse! Something like 75 feet per second. These guys could run at you like a torpedo. Roll save vs human bullet.

Yes 75 ft/second is Correct. I think that type of speed should actually pull your body apart. I mean If you move 3 quarters a foot in a millisecond your body is not going to be in a very good condition.

[Radiant]

Underpowered? Sorcerers in 3.0 (no, I don't have the money to convert) are better at prestige classes than wizards because they don't lose bonus feats (in a standard magic game a sorcerer can do well with his enormous spells-per-day figures and stick to what he finds as far as magic items go, and enhanced sorcerer spells take a deal of time to cast, so you don't really need much in the way of metamagic & item creation).

The standard monk is just a cool class to include in the game (if you like it, of course). They are definitely oriental and thus exotic in a standard game (which is medieval-european), so you don't see lots of them very often, and one path of development is enough. If you do, though, there is certainly a need for diversity (inclusion of prestige classes perhaps? - see Oriental Adventures). Then again, if you focus on arcane magic, you need wizardly (and sorcererly) prestige classes (and maybe also new core classes), a clerically focused campaign ruleset should include at least one prestige class for each deity...

[Maryring]

But Wizards and Clerics make sense :D Sorry, I just had too. Now I actually like the Sorcerer fluff, but your post does make sense. Of course, remember that it uses Charisma instead of Intelligence. You don't know the spells. You're just awfully good at bluffing it.

And the Monk... is "Like, soooooo cool, like, just like the movies". But I don't care much because that's what's fun to play. And remember that it's the mechanics that are the same. But where one monk would spin kick his opponents into oblivion, this other monk would crack walls with her head. The numbers are still the same, and in every book I have read, except for BoVD, have I seen at least one Monk PrC.

[Democratus]

The difference between Wizards and Sorcerers is like the difference between Iron Man and Superman.

One had to use science to achieve super powers. The other was simply born with them.

[Dragonmuncher]

It helps if you don't think of a Monk as a "martial artist." That's the temptation, especially since we're trying to think of D&D as something that makes "sense."

Think of it this way- don't call the Monk a "Monk." Call it a... Flemen.

The Flemen is a class that draws on the inner life force power that is in all living things. By drawing on it through special meditative techniques and "mind over matter," the Flemen can do amazing things, like run fast, teleport, and punch through armor. Eventually he becomes so at one with the universal life force that he actually becomes a quasi-divine being.

If you take away all preconceptions about living in monastaries, or acting in badly-dubbed movies, or "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," it makes as much sense as say, a wizard who can cast spells by forcing his mind into the mental equivilants of a contortionist, or a Warlock that can just shoot blasts out of his hands all day.

[Ing]

big problem i always had, was that if Sorceror's are the inherient accidental kinda reach puberty inadvertantly blew up the family dog, type chars with inherient magical powers, why the hell is it so useless to ross class to wizard. i mean if they inheriently have great magical powers shouldn't their powers only get augmented from learning about their great powers and actually learning where they come from, instead of being freaking useless!?

[Democratus]

It depends.

It wouldn't be very useful for superman to know how to build an Iron Man suit. Sure, he could put it on - but it would only give him a strength of (for example) 40 when he already has a strength of 40. So there's little added benefit.

[bosssmiley]

The difference between Wizards and Sorcerers is like the difference between Iron Man and Superman.

One had to use science to achieve super powers. The other was simply born with them.

Democratus has the right of it (as is so often the case for him :) ). A wizard will spend a decade at UU, Hogwarts or wherever learning to harness magic through rotes and formulae. A sorceror, by contrast, spends their formative years struggling to master the untrained power their ancestry or destiny (as you prefer) has bestowed upon them. UA's bloodlines did wonders for sorcerors: I read that section of the book and *properly* saw where they fitted in to D&D.

The two mage classes reflect different views/traditions of magic: the learned hermetic scholar and philosopher-magus (John Dee, Faustus, or perhaps Prospero from "The Tempest") vs. the terrifying innate magic of blood and fate (Thulsa Doom, or Merlin).

As for the monk, who *doesn't* have some part of them that wants to play the inscrutable mystic who quotes peace and harmony at people while scuttling up walls and kicking out their kidneys. Someone's buying all those kung-fu movies. ;)

The D&D monk is a distillation of all the legends and fantasies of martial arts. As they advance in level these guys change from being martial artists via Hong Kong action heroes (Bruce Lee, Jet Li or Sammo Heung) to being something like Monkey from "Journey to the West": a folkloric hero who races the winds, runs up waterfalls and fights demons with his bare hands.

Throw in Complete Warrior, UA (Ise-Zumi!) & Dragon mag support for monks ("Mmmmm...Shen shapeshifter PrC") and no-one can reasonably call them one trick ponies.

The monk boring? The sorceror without precedent?

...

:-/

[Yossarian]

I think a lot of the premise comes from the underlying assertion that magic is directly comparable to science, which I think is a faulty premise. There is a science of sorts underlying magic, yes, but the actual practice of it more resembles an art. Some artists cultivate their talent through rigorous practice and study; others just have a natural flair they improvise upon.

[Person_Man]

The correct answer is that D&D is written so that 14 year olds can understand it. Most 14 year olds can't understand or wouldn't use 8 different schools of unarmed combat, or 4 different types of magic. So they created 1 unarmed combat specialist with some cool powers, and two types of magic.

There are also tons of supplements and its open game content, so it can be infinitely modified and expanded to fit the needs/tastes/beliefs of pretty much any gamer of any age.

If you're hung up on "real-life" combat or magic rules that make more sense, you may wish to consider GURPS or one some other game. D&D is popular because its workable and relatively simple while simultanously being massively expandable. It's the same reason people use Microsoft Windows. Yes, it sucks for lots of reasons. But it does what 90% of the people in the world want, 90% of the time.

[Orion-the-G]

I think the problem he's having with the sorcerer is why they use the exact same system as the wizard to cast their spells. For instance why a sorcerer, who's magic requires no external or formalized training happens to use the exact same gestures, words, and components to produce say...a blast of fire as a wizard (or so identical that a scroll made by a sorcerer and a is totally interchangable, the spellcraft check to ID it is identical, etc.).

Why does the sorcerer, who supposedly calls upon these vast inner strengths to fuel his power and in fact probably learned all his magic himself, using sulfur and bat guano? Did he suddenly have an urge to go and do some spelunking while practicing that fire spell that just wouldn't go the way he wants it to? I think that's the problem with the 'artistic and intuitive genius' idea of the sorcerer, if they're so artistic how come every sorcerer who produces X effect does it in the exact same way. Sure one might have a fireball colored purple or something but it still uses magic twiddle Z combined with arcane speach X, with appropraite amounts of dung and sulfur.

The suggestion to change the flavor text is probably the best way to bring it in line with the mechanics but of course that just reinforces the fact that the original is flawed.

Of course I like playing sorcerers myself. I just assume that the spells of a sorcerer are no more 'a part of him' than a wizards (which is just reinforced by the sorcerer's ability to 'drop' spells). The training of a wizard is not geared mainly towards learning new spells (which is fairly easy, mechanics-wise) but towards 'fueling' them, disciplines to draw out the magical power and shape it with the rote formula. Because of their limited training sorcerers know only a very few 'rituals' but they do have the innate ability to draw upon the power of magic and require no training at all to do it.


Personally the biggest problem I've had with the sorcerer is that it's a class that assumes a character's background, yet follows the exact same rules for multiclassing and everything else. So while person who starts at 1st level as sorcerer probably had a weird childhood full of strange events and magicalness, person who is a 14th level cleric and just wants to be able to use some of those arcane spell completion items he's got can pop right into the class with no problem.


As for the monk, I think the problem is that you're thinking about it the wrong way. It's meant to be an 'action movie' class, the etherealness and teleportation are just a little bit of ninja that fell in the mix. A 'karate' master would be a fighter with focus in unarmed feats, a monk is someone who's discipline and training allows them to enhance their physical abilities to supernatural levels. It would go against the philosophy of the class to focus soley on the ability to punch really hard, so they improve themselves in a variety of ways (speed, endurance, skills, etc.)

[storybookknight]

Strictly speaking, there's about NO logic behind people barehandedly being able to take out crowds of trained swordsmen, punch through armor, etc - meaning that a mundane martial artist would be hugely disadvantaged. Some of the monk abilities given are there for the purposes of game balance and no other reason... maybe not the best flavor from the martial artist point of view, but I agree with Boss Smiley on that score as to what WotC wanted from it.

As for sorcerers, I don't have a problem with them... though Merlin I think was a wizard, rather than a sorcerer.

[Malachite]

You think 75ft per second is bad, wait until they hit level 30
Base speed of 130ft, x5 and /6 =108.3 ft/s

And imagine a lvl 30 Centaur(50ft) monk with Horseshoes of Speed(+30ft): 180ft per second (900ft per round!!!). In fact, I may just do that solely to see the expression on the DM's face when I outrun spells and jump the Grand Canyon.

Then again, knowing him he'd tell me I tripped on a root and tore my leg off, before ploughing head first into the ground and crushing myself into a pancake...

Mal

[Orion-the-G]

Heh, merlin was a mythological character who did not follow any sort of game rules any more than gandalf did. If you had to make a choice then he would be more sorcerer since his powers were inherent (I believe he may have had demon blood even).

Of course he's referred to as a wizard because only D+D makes a distinction.

[Thomas]

Monks?

Watched any Chinese movies? That's what the monk is about. Jet Li, House of Flying Daggers, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, wuxia up the wazoo.

They're not martial artists, by a long shot. A fighter with unarmed combat feats is a martial artist. Monks are a representation of an archetype of chinese popular culture and myth, just like the wizard is a representation of western popular culture and myth.

[InaVegt]

Heh, merlin was a mythological character who did not follow any sort of game rules any more than gandalf did. If you had to make a choice then he would be more sorcerer since his powers were inherent (I believe he may have had demon blood even).

Of course he's referred to as a wizard because only D+D makes a distinction.

In the movie he's actually half-god (don't know about the mystical counterpart i have only read some king arthur based books)

[Jack Mann]

According to legend, he was half demon.

[Thomas]

According to legend, he was half demon.

Which legend? ;)

From a Christian PoV, he was sired by a devil. From a Pagan PoV, he was sired by a faerie.

Pretty irrelevant, anyhow. There are equally "truthy" arguments for just about any class or class combination you care to give Merlin. (I'd go with Wizard/Druid/Mystic Theurge, personally.)

[Leperflesh]

Nah. Merlin is clearly a single-class NPC, and his single-class is "DM's Pet NPC". His role is to railroad the PCs, bail them out when they're in real danger of not fulfilling the DM's predestined plot requirements, and also be uber-powerful to help remind the PCs that, no matter what they do, there's always someone else around to outshine them (but he doesn't just do everything himself, because he's got "restrictions" of some sort, which are never explained fully).

-Lep

[Ing]

my point on the sorceror is that even if you have an inherient ability, (going with the art metafor, say drawing) you can greatly increase your natural greatness through offical training and instruction from a master . why would a sorceror only gain a few spells at the lowest concievable level. i think that if he cross classes to wizard he should get the same sta bonuses (BAB, saves etc) but learn a few spells as if he studied under the rigors of a wizard. he still prepares as a sorceror but his spell list inflates. then agian i've never been too sure on how many spells a wizard can learn or how they learn them anyway so I might be way off base.

[Democratus]

Why? Why should study of Wizardry help a sorcerer?

I don't see how studying power armor construction would help Superman.

Sometimes a natural ability is simply just what it is - there's no enhancing it with schooling.

[Orion-the-G]

not to mention the low-level powerhouse a sorcerer 1/wizard 1 would produce.

[AmoDman]

On Wizard/Sorcerer - Here's the problem. It's naturally assumed of Wizards that they have some sort of a talent for magic, and thus is the reason they devoted their lives to study of it to better themselves at it. Sorcerers, however, have a natural talent which they progress...by doing jack squat. Sure, they go on the same adventures as Wizards, but it's like they just wake up one morning and accidentally torch a tree and are like "Oh, I guess that was a Fireball. Oops." Anyways, whatever, better flavor text is needed, I think. I actually like the idea of non-studious wizard, I just don't think it comes across well in D&D...

As for monk, there's another thing people are missing. The text specifically says, they do their damage however you describe it. Sure, two monks might be able to have the "same effects," but flavor-wise, they could be doing them in drastically different ways. Maybe your monk uses only his knees to fight and hops around on his hands. By RAW that's just fine. In any case, the rest of the abilities stem from the fact that PC's aren't just your average joe unarmed specialists. These are people who have devoted their lives to enhancing their bodies and, in a world where magic exists, they simply have some amazing effects long-term.

[Kaerou]

My only real problem with Sorcerer is the fact that they need to verbally cast spells with the same words, rather than just direct the power they have, and the fact that 3.5 didnt even seem to adress the sorcerers at all, when they should have imo, got Enshew matierials.

They are supposed to just suddenly be able to cast spells, yet they need to say the same words as wizards (where did they apparently learn these words? the words are the wizards Science that they learned to gain magic, yet apparently they say the same thing with inborn magic? isnt the talent inborn, not learned? that makes no sense!)

And secondly.. they are supposed to have these spells and magic themselves, but apparently they never used it till they for example, picked up a tiny archery target to cast true strike, or whatever? they would never have any power without collecting a bunch of junk? Again, no sense..! =/

Lastly.. my gripe with Sorcerers is the whole metamagic thing.. full round action? no quickening? Thats stupid! Its supposed to be the Sorcerers that are the ones that shape magic to their will, not wizards! Apparently adding extra words to err.. shape a spell differently takes the same amount of time for a wizard, yet takes the one who is directing inborn talent a whole round.. pffft...

[Matthew]

Merlin? What movie(s) was he half-God in? There are so many... In the Old French Vulgate Cycle and the later Middle English translation, Merlin is indeed Half-Demon:

http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/pmint.htm

As for his 'Pagan' roots, well that's a matter of controversy, but the evidence is sketchy at best.

His more modern incarnations are testimony to his popularity as an archetypical 'advisor' figure.

Sorcerer: if I remember rightly, this class (or something like it) was created in response to / for the Forgotten Realms 'Spell Fire' novel. I didn't think much of the book or the class, but since it was popular it was included as a Base Class in 3.0. Use it or lose it; it makes little difference.

Monk: This class first appeared in the 1.0 Core Rules (I think), was exorcised in the 2.0 Core Rules and gradually made its way back into the system because it was a popular option. It was rehabilitated in 3.0 for exactly that reason. Use it or lose it.

Personally, I don't use either of these classes in my 'home brewed' campaign, but that's one difference amongst many. As far as RAW goes, they are in the tradition of D&D and as well balanced as any other class. 'Whirlwind Joe' was one of the funniest PCs I ever DM'd...

[Parallax]

Yes 75 ft/second is Correct. I think that type of speed should actually pull your body apart. I mean If you move 3 quarters a foot in a millisecond your body is not going to be in a very good condition.

Putting things in perspective, it works out to a mere 50 miles an hour (80km/hour for the SI-based people.) For a 20th level monk. With the run feat. At full speed. So, OK it's fast, superhuman fast even, but really it's just cheetah-in-top-condition fast, or car-on-a-highway average.

Considering some falcons dive at 4 times this speed, the speed alone is not life-threatening. It's an acceleration of 0 to 50 mph in just 6 seconds, again, nothing horrible there. So relax. Take a look at how much a 5' human fighter with 23STR (at 20th level) can lift, or drag, and you will realize D&D is a game of epic fantasy, not a real-world simulator. So what if monks run faster than any olympic athlete? Wizards make bigger fireballs too, so suck it up. :)

[Starbuck_II]

On Wizard/Sorcerer - Here's the problem. It's naturally assumed of Wizards that they have some sort of a talent for magic, and thus is the reason they devoted their lives to study of it to better themselves at it. Sorcerers, however, have a natural talent which they progress...by doing jack squat. Sure, they go on the same adventures as Wizards, but it's like they just wake up one morning and accidentally torch a tree and are like "Oh, I guess that was a Fireball. Oops." Anyways, whatever, better flavor text is needed, I think. I actually like the idea of non-studious wizard, I just don't think it comes across well in D&D...

Nah, Fireball needs bat guano and sulfur. Without Eschew Materials (a house rule most people give Sorc tosupport flavor) you can't do that.

What you meant was Scorching Ray.

Sorcerors are just lazy guys that still have to learn everything Wizards do (what materials do they need for spells), but free spell mastery feats every level. ;D