Gestalt Characters

[MightyMuenster]

I'm about to start up a Gestalt campaign with my friends and I have a few questions about class advancement. Firstly, how would a character go with a cross class Gestalt? It seems easy enough if a player was a Rogue-Fighter3/Bard-Sorc1, but what if a player wanted to go from Rogue-Fighter to Sorc-Fighter? How would this be handled in the game?

Also, how would prestige classes play out? Would a player be required to take on two prestige classes and fulfill the requirements for both? Or should tweaks be made to the classes to make them balanced in a gestalt world?

Now... the reason I'm using Gestalt in the first place is because this is going to be a very casual game. It's set to meet whenever we come home for breaks from college, so I want it to be fast paced and fun, with lots of room for RPing but also lots of room for fighting those enemies that seem so iconic of D&D.

Thanks in advanced!

[Jack_Simth]

Most of that's up to the DM. The Gestalt listing in Unearthed Arcana (or was that Arcana Unearthed?) aren't well defined when it comes down to multiclassing. A few things that are mentioned....

No dual-PrC's - so you can maybe have a monk-20//Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Archmage-5, but you can't have a Monk-5/Psionic Fist-10/Enlightened Fist-5//Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Archmage-5

No "gestalt-like" PrC's. No, you can't have a Wiz||Cleric 3 / Druid || Mystic Theurge X

Most the rest aren't particularly clear, although you can find what there is in the way of specifics Here

[Ramza00]

Advice prevent the most obvious powergaming.

Be careful what you allow in game with "multi-class feats." Ascetic mage is probally not going to be a big problem. Cha to AC yet you are still forced to be unarmored. But the new Daring Outlaw which was balanced against a multiclass character would be too powerful (Rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for grace, dodge bonus, and sneak attack). A Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17//Ninja 20 is just two powerful.

Also be ready to "gut" prestige classes that are not combination classes but are still to powerful. Abjurant Champion is not technically a combination class but it is still very powerful when compared against Eldritch Knight, ban it or make it d4 hp and 1/2 bab but keep the rest of the abilities.

Finally some abilities of classes/prcs were balanced by the fact there are other limiting factors. A 13th lvl duskblade can only arcane channel with a full attack 4th and eventually 5th lvl spells. A Duskblade/Wizard can do that with 9th lvl spells. Now part of this power creep is natural with gestalt a Duskblade/Wizard is an okay gestalt game wise for he will be fighting higher lvl encounters or other gestalt monsters or npcs.

But it can truley get insane, for example this gestalt combo.

Conjurer Wizard 5/Demonologist 3/Thaumaturgist 3/Demonologist 7/Thaumaturgist 2
//
Cleric 20

In the end wizard casting of 10th lvl spells (good buff posibilities), up to 4th lvl spells with Demonologist, and 20th lvl cleric casting.

• Instead of a Familiar for wizard you take the Unearthed Arcana Rapid Summoning which allows you to summon monsters as a standard action instead of a full round action. You gain a Quasit familiar for free at lvl 7 with Demonoligist 2.
• With Cleric you get Turn Undead with which you now use Divine Metamagic Quicken
• Demonologist is a balanced prc in normal play due to the fact he gets his own spell list which goes up to 4th lvl spells. Demonologist also gains an ability called Summoning Mastery, a Demonologist of 3rd lvl treats all Summoning Monster spells as if they were 2 lvls higher. A Summon Monster 3 is now a Summon Monster 5. Eventually Summon Mastery increases from +2 to +3 to +4. Now this is balanced due in normal play due to the fact you only have 4th lvl spells, but in gestalt he may give up his wizard spells but he still has Cleric spells which can cast summon monster. Quicken Summon Monster IX from 5th lvl slots is just not right
  
• And he can still take all the improved summoning feats such as Augment Summoning and Imubed Summoning (the feat where your summons get a 3rd lvl buff/touch spell or lower instantly such as invisibility).

Gestalt is very fun, but be careful of allowing certain combinations that were never meant to occur.

[Turcano]

There are several different possibilities for multiclassing; the main two are that each combination is considered separate classes for the purposes of multiclassing and that only combinations of classes that are both different from other classes are separate. Or you can simply scrap XP penalties entirely because they're bloody confusing.

I personally would allow "gestalt-like" prestige classes, but their benefits wouldn't stack with the other class slot, so a cleric 10//wizard 5/mystic theurge 5 would have CL 10 in both classes, not 10 wizard CL and 15 cleric CL. If you did it this way, a one-level dip in arcane heirophant to a druid//wizard gestalt would be pretty boss.

[Ramza00]

I personally would allow "gestalt-like" prestige classes, but their benefits wouldn't stack with the other class slot, so a cleric 10//wizard 5/mystic theurge 5 would have CL 10 in both classes, not 10 wizard CL and 15 cleric CL. If you did it this way, a one-level dip in arcane heirophant to a druid//wizard gestalt would be pretty boss.

Your example of Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant are not applicable since they are combination classes and are forbidden under gestalt.

Now a cleric 10/Master of Unseen Hand 5//Wizard 15 on the other hand has a caster lvl of 15 for wizard spells, 10 for cleric spells, and 20 for telekinesis. This is because the Improved Caster Level (EX) ability says your caster lvl of your class gets a bonus of the number of lvls you have in master of unseen hand. This ability was added with normal play to MotUH as a balance issue since Master of Unseen Hand doesn't progress spellcasting this way there telekinesis spells aren't underpowered and he sacricifices other spells for more telekinetic abilities. (Hierophant has a similar wording for its caster lvl, does it stack in gestalt? It is far less clear RAW wise, RAI its an obvious no.)

[Turcano]

Your example of Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant are not applicable since they are combination classes and are forbidden under gestalt.

Well, I did say "personally." And the reason why combination prestige classes are not allowed is because people would normally interpret the bonus caster levels/sneak attack/etc. as stacking. If you interpret them as overlapping, there is no real advantage to taking them other than for the class features that the prestige class itself provides. For example, if a player was playing a rogue//wizard gestalt and wanted ranged legerdemain really, really badly, I would see no problem with letting them become a rogue/arcane trickster//wizard and ignore the spells/day bonus (since it overlaps with the normal wizard progression). In retrospect, the mystic theurge was a really bad example.

[Tor the Fallen]

I would scrap PrC all together, or at least any that grant "+1 to existing class," as then you could accrue spell levels at 2x the rate, as well as classifying for them several levels early.

For instance, by fourth level, you could qualify for mystic theurge, and, if you went cleric/wiz 3, wiz/theurge 7 at tenth level, you'd cast as cleric 10/wizard 17.

Which is just ridiculous.

Rogue-Fighter to Sorc-Fighter would work like this:

Level one- take the abilities of both classes (sneak attack, trap finding, bonus feat, etc), use the best hitdie, saves, BAB, etc.

Level 2- add the better hitdie (fighter), better saves (fort as fighter, will as sorc, neither has a good reflex, so add 1/3 to the +2 you gained from rogue at level 1), and gain new abilities (bonus fighter feat, sorc familiar, spellcasting). You do not advance in levels of rogue. So now you are fighter2/rogue1/sorc1 one at level two. So if you're looking at your abilities as a fighter, they will be those of a 2nd level fighter, first level rogue, and a first level sorc.

Basically you advance one class to second level while 'multiclassing' with the new class, but just use the saves, BAB, etc, that's the best.


Level 1: rog1/ftr1
HP = 10+ con mod (from fighter)
Saves = 2 fort (from fighter), 2 reflex (from rogue), 0 will (1/3) (neither has a good will)
BAB= +1 (from fighter)
Abilities: fighter– bonus feat
rogue sneak attack– +1d6, trapfinding
Skills– (8 + Int modifier) ×4 (from rogue), class skill are all the ones on the rogue list, and all the ones on the fighter

Level 2: ftr2/rog1/sor1

HP= (10 + con mod) + (1d10 + con mod) (all from ftr)
Saves = 3 fort (from ftr), 2 reflex (from rog + 1/3 (since neither ftr nor sor has a good ref save, 1/3 (from level 1) + 2 (from sor) will.
BAB = +2 (from ftr)
Abilities= another bonus feat, spell casting exactly as a level one sorceror, ability to gain a familiar
Skills- 2 + int mod (both ftr and sor have sucky skills), class skills are all sorc and all ftr skills.

Does that make sense?

[JaronK]

I'm about to start up a Gestalt campaign with my friends and I have a few questions about class advancement. Firstly, how would a character go with a cross class Gestalt? It seems easy enough if a player was a Rogue-Fighter3/Bard-Sorc1, but what if a player wanted to go from Rogue-Fighter to Sorc-Fighter? How would this be handled in the game?

It's very simple. Write out the classes in the order you get them, like this:

Rogue 1//Fighter 1
Sorcerer 1//Fighter 2

Now, following gestalt rules, the character has: BAB +2 (both levels gave +1 BAB), Reflex Save of 2 (+2 at first level from rogue, no progression at second level), Fort Save of 3 (+2 at first level from fighter, +1 at second level from fighter), Will Save of 2 (+0 at first level, +2 at second level from Sorcerer), and D10 HD at both levels (fighter). He also has the class features of all these classes, so he's got two fighter bonus feats, 1d6 sneak attack, trap finding, and casts as a first level sorcerer.

Also, how would prestige classes play out? Would a player be required to take on two prestige classes and fulfill the requirements for both? Or should tweaks be made to the classes to make them balanced in a gestalt world?

First of all, you can't have two PrCs at once in Gestalt, so for example you could go:

Rogue 1-6//Fighter 1-6
Rogue 7-16//Frenzied Berserker 1-10
Assassin 1-4//Fighter 7-10

but you couldn't go

Rogue 1-6//Fighter 1-6
Assassin 1-10//Frenzied Berserker 1-10
Rogue 7-10//Fighter 7-10

Basically, you always have to take at least one base class at any given level. Now, that said, some classes are stronger in Gestalt. The ones you really need to lay down the law on are dual caster progression classes (like Mystic Theurge), as these get insanely strong in Gestalt. Others, don't worry about so much. Gestalt will be a bit stronger than normal play, but not as strong as you think. The first mistake most DMs make in their first Gestalt game is overestimating the characters and killing them all. So yeah, the players can take PrCs (one at a time) and as long as they're not basically two class PrCs (MT, Eldritch Knight, etc) they should be fine. Honestly, even EK isn't bad in Gestalt.

Now... the reason I'm using Gestalt in the first place is because this is going to be a very casual game. It's set to meet whenever we come home for breaks from college, so I want it to be fast paced and fun, with lots of room for RPing but also lots of room for fighting those enemies that seem so iconic of D&D.

Thanks in advanced!

Quite honestly, Gestalt is great. Having played it a lot I have a tough time going back to standard classes, as the characters just aren't as fun and flexible. Let me give you a few pointers.

1) There's a lot of bad advice out there about Gestalt, mostly from people who've just read the rules but never played it. Be aware of this. People will give silly advice like "be a Sorcerer//Wizard, it's really uber" or "Gestalt is too powerful, you can balance it by forcing people to not multiclass and play core only." In case you're wondering, the first is actually exceptionally weak, and the second is downright foolish, as Druid//Cleric is one of the strongest Gestalts possible.

2) It's not as strong as you think. Remember, even though you've got twice as many classes to play with, you've got about the same hitpoints, similar BAB, and the same number of actions, plus the same number of feats to work with. Gestalt characters often suffer from terrible feat shortages and MAD, which can weaken them considerably. Never assume a Gestalt party is as strong as a party about twice its level or twice the size, because it's really not. Doing so will very quickly kill the poor guys. Remember, they don't have that many hitpoints, nor do they have higher level spells than normal, and they don't have more actions than normal. Honestly, an optomized gestalt can handle CRs about 3 higher than normal, while a less optomized one (and people new to gestalt will likely not make very optimal ones) will only be able to handle maybe 1 CR higher than normal, but just be able to handle more encounters per day. Don't kill off your players! It should be noted that if players multiclass a lot, their saves will be quite high. This is okay, just lower the CR for monsters that rely on forcing saves.

3) Read the rules of Gestalt repeatedly. It's actually all very clear, but it takes a while to figure out. Important bit: if two classes, taken at the same level, progress the same thing, they overwrite, and do not stack. If a player tries to pull off something like Wizard 10//Fighter 6/Mindbender 4 and claims to have 12 caster levels of wizard, smack them. Repeatedly. With a hammer. Most of the rediculous power abuses in Gestalt happen because someone snuck in something that's against the rules.

4) Fractional BAB is given in Unearthed Arcana right next to the Gestalt rules. It is critically important that you use this system with Gestalt, or horrific abuses may happen. Trust me.

JaronK

[JaronK]

I would scrap PrC all together, or at least any that grant "+1 to existing class," as then you could accrue spell levels at 2x the rate, as well as classifying for them several levels early.

For instance, by fourth level, you could qualify for mystic theurge, and, if you went cleric/wiz 3, wiz/theurge 7 at tenth level, you'd cast as cleric 10/wizard 17.

Which is just ridiculous.

This is an example of what I was talking about in my post. This is patently false. Scrapping PrCs entirely just makes your players be druids or other classes that don't need to PrC out, MT is a banned class in Gestalt, and even if it were allowed, a Cleric 3/MT 7//Wizard 10 would cast exactly like a Cleric 10//Wizard 10, since the MT advancement of Wizard casting overlaps with the Wizard advancement of the same.

People, please. If you've never played Gestalt, don't try to give advice about it.

JaronK

[Ramza00]

Note there was no problem with the duskblade//wizard build I listed above.

And there was no problem with everything of the cleric/wizard summoner till you added the Summoning Mastery, and then added the Summoning Mastery onto your Cleric spells. If you just allowed the same class but didn't allow the abilities to stack in obscene ways (note I didn't say minimal stacking such as rapid summoning and then thamurologist, some stacking is good, gestalt is higher power, but its not obscene power, your characters are balanced against there villians remember). Be careful of obscene power combos and be prepared as a dm to say no.

Gestalt are fun games, just be ready to say no if your player power games into insanity. Do not go in as a pre-emptive attack and say you can't do X, Y, and Z. Just tell your players be respectful of the DM, and the DM will be respectful to you and would be willing to work with you

[Tor the Fallen]

This is an example of what I was talking about in my post. This is patently false. Scrapping PrCs entirely just makes your players be druids or other classes that don't need to PrC out, MT is a banned class in Gestalt, and even if it were allowed, a Cleric 3/MT 7//Wizard 10 would cast exactly like a Cleric 10//Wizard 10, since the MT advancement of Wizard casting overlaps with the Wizard advancement of the same.

People, please. If you've never played Gestalt, don't try to give advice about it.

JaronK

Would a rogue and an assassin's sneak attacks stack, or overlap?


[edit]
Classes that complement each other are really great, especially if they make up for crappy saves in the other. Fighter/barb may have a lot of feats, but rogue/barb gets better saves and skills. 'Course, you can always dip ftr for feats.

Personally, I don't run my games with PrCs when we do gestalt, as it makes the characters more powerful than they already are, as they're essentially PrC's on steroids.

One thing about gestalt– they can go through more encounters without resting, faster, which means they gain exp quicker.

[Ramza00]

Would a rogue and an assassin's sneak attacks stack, or overlap?

Classes that complement each other are really great, especially if they make up for crappy saves in the other. Fighter/barb may have a lot of feats, but rogue/barb gets better saves and skills. 'Course, you can always dip ftr for feats.

Personally, I don't run my games with PrCs when we do gestalt, as it makes the characters more powerful than they already are, as they're essentially PrC's on steroids.

One thing about gestalt– they can go through more encounters without resting, faster, which means they gain exp quicker.

Don't do a rouge/assassin (abilities of the same type don't stack).
Don't do a rouge/ninja either
Do a UA sneak attack fighter/ninja

You lose 2 skillpoints per lvl (for a total of 6+int), but get a good fort save, d10 hps, all martial weapons and armor, and good bab. Smart trade in gestalt.

Fighter
Some fighters prefer stealth and cunning over martial skill. This variant can also be combined with the thug variant.

Gain:Sneak attack (as rogue).

Lose:Bonus feats.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter

[JaronK]

Would a rogue and an assassin's sneak attacks stack, or overlap?

Overlap. If you want stacking sneak attack, you'll need something else. Rogue//Scout or Rogue//Ninja will work, because it gives you two different but similar abilities. Not that those are great classes, because of other issues, namely alot of overlap (skill points, HD, and BAB are the same), but it's a start. To make it a lot better, try CA Ninja//Rokugan Ninja. Same names, but one gets Sneak Attack, while one gets Sudden Strike. One gives 3/4 BAB, one gives full BAB. One gives 6 skill points, one gives four. You get the idea. They're actually really fun classes to stack... I recently slapped together a Gestalt Ninja that was CA Ninja 20//Monk 4/Rokugan Ninja 8/Ninja Spy 8, and that absolutely rocked.

Classes that complement each other are really great, especially if they make up for crappy saves in the other. Fighter/barb may have a lot of feats, but rogue/barb gets better saves and skills. 'Course, you can always dip ftr for feats.

Okay, that's true. The best combos are often two classes of similar theme but very different implimentation. CA Ninja//Rokugan Ninja is a great example of this, as is Cloistered Cleric//Druid. Also, classes with lots of abilities that don't take actions are great in Gestalt. For example, Wizard//Sorcerer has the problem that almost all abilities of both classes, namely the spells, take an action to cast, so you can't really be both a Wizard and a Sorcerer at the same time. However, Druid//Monk is incredible, because you can pretty much all the time be Wild Shaped into something fierce while gaining great saves and Wis to AC, and often use long duration Druid combat buffs like Spikes and Shillelah while flurrying with your iterative unarmed attacks. The result is that unlike the previous example, you are behaving as both a monk and a druid simultaneously while gaining the benefits of both.

Note that Cloistered Cleric//Druid is something of a special case. While it may seem the same as Wizard//Sorcerer, it's very different. Divine Persistant Metamagic means you can have both Druid and Cleric buffs up all the time, and Wild Shape from the druid is helpful as well. As a result, you become an incredible healer, a decent skillmonkey (6 per level), and a great melee fighter.

Personally, I don't run my games with PrCs when we do gestalt, as it makes the characters more powerful than they already are, as they're essentially PrC's on steroids.

The problem with this is that some of the best classes in Gestalt (monk, druid) don't require PrCing out, while some flavorful classes that aren't too bad often do require PrCing (Sorcerer) and thus become a bit obsolete. All limiting PrCs tends to do is limit the flexibility of the players, and I find the best feature of Gestalt characters is their flexibility. After all, I think the point of Gestalt is to let players create exactly the character concept they want, which you normally can't do quite as well.

One thing about gestalt– they can go through more encounters without resting, faster, which means they gain exp quicker.

Quite true, though you're supposed to lower the CR of all monsters to compensate. That said, I like the speed thing.

JaronK

[Ramza00]

For the people who don't know the rokugan ninja is from the legend of the five rings, it is located here for free.

http://www.legendofthefiverings.com/...ugan_ninja.pdf

[MightyMuenster]

Wow... such quick replies. Thanks for all the help so far. One thing I should point out about my little group is that I'm the most familiar to D&D out of us all and I've only really been playing it for about a year (I've been more into SW d20 and the MURPG system before I was introduced to D&D) and two have never RP'd before. Power gaming isn't too much of an issue at this point.

[Turcano]

Note that Cloistered Cleric//Druid is something of a special case. While it may seem the same as Wizard//Sorcerer, it's very different. Divine Persistant Metamagic means you can have both Druid and Cleric buffs up all the time, and Wild Shape from the druid is helpful as well. As a result, you become an incredible healer, a decent skillmonkey (6 per level), and a great melee fighter.

A similar combination is archivist//wizard; when people recommend the sorcerer//wizard build, they mistakenly think that it's like this. You get d6 hit dice (not as good as d8, but it's still an improvment), good Fort and Will saves, 4+Int skill points (for an Int-based caster, remember), access to more than two non-overlapping spell lists (one of the major weaknesses of the sorcerer//wizard is that they use the same list), two bonus feats (three if your DM is nice and lets you substitute one of your Scribe Scrolls), dark knowledge and lore goodness, and most importantly, SAD (which counters the other major weakness of sorcerer//wizard). Add a two-level dip of geometer on the wizard side and see how many spells you can cram into a blessed book. It's almost like a cloistered cleric//wizard, except you trade domain slots and turn undead for SAD and the potential to learn every divine spell in the game on top of every wizard spell.

[SpiderBrigade]

Personally I would love the flavor of Archivist//Wizard, and it does have a lot of strenghts with the INT synergy...but you do still have the problem of action limits. You can't be casting from both at once. In a group with a monk//druid or even a fighter//rogue, the fact that you can cast Mass Heal or Time Stop is somewhat less impressive.

On the other hand, you're even more Batman than a wizard normally is, so if you can plan, you should be unstoppable. If there's a cleric in the party, make sure he takes Scribe Scroll, so you really CAN know every single cleric spell there is.

[Turcano]

Personally I would love the flavor of Archivist//Wizard, and it does have a lot of strenghts with the INT synergy...but you do still have the problem of action limits. You can't be casting from both at once. In a group with a monk//druid or even a fighter//rogue, the fact that you can cast Mass Heal or Time Stop is somewhat less impressive.

You'd have the same problem with any dual-caster gestalt, which can be rectified somewhat with Quicken Spell in any case.

On the other hand, you're even more Batman than a wizard normally is, so if you can plan, you should be unstoppable. If there's a cleric in the party, make sure he takes Scribe Scroll, so you really CAN know every single cleric spell there is.

Archivists get cleric spells (and only cleric spells) as they level, so it's better to put priority on getting spells from other classes, like the druid, paladin, and any other divine casters in the campaign.

Also, I forgot to mention that if you still want to use Divine Metamagic cheese, a one-level dip in sacred exorcist is all you really need.

[Bears With Lasers]

Archivists make for great gish-y gestalts. Get buffs from other lists--like Holy Sword from the Paladin list, say. +5 Holy weapon at level 7, anyone?

[JaronK]

If there's a cleric in the party, make sure he takes Scribe Scroll, so you really CAN know every single cleric spell there is.

Not necessary. Check the rules for making items. No one person needs all the requirements. As long as the cleric is willing to work with the Archivist, the Archivist can make the scroll using scribe scroll while the cleric provides the spell requirement for it.

And yes, Wizard//Archivist is good, though defensively very weak. However, once you PrC into Sacred Exocist for a level, you've got Divine Metmagic on your side to make the Archivist spells last a while, thus dodging part of the problem (Persistant Lesser Mass Vigor to cover healing for the party). This fits with what I said earlier about how having two classes with similar themes but radically different mechanics can be good.

However, you can do much better than Wizard//Archivist. Artificer//Archivist, to be precise. Artificer can make magic items (*cough* scrolls) without actually knowing the spells in question, and you can see where that's going to lead (namely, they can make divine versions of every spell in the game... suddenly the Archivist is the Everything-ist). They also have no problems with spell failure, access to all Artificer cheese (with a bit of DMM thrown in when you pop into Exorcist), and generally speaking really ARE batman. You even get the custom gadgets. Though this build lacks the insane flexibility on the fly of the gold standard gestalt build (Monk 1/Cloistered Cleric 19//Druid 20) and the ability to fill all party roles of the same, it makes up for it in the ability to do absolutely anything, given some prep time (including persistant shapechange, at high level, and can imagine the hilarity that leads to). All this (and there's more if you're good at playing those classes) is why Artificer//Archivist with a dip into Sacred Exorcist is the second place contender for best gestalt build, with Wizard//Archivist looking on from a distance and wondering how the hell he *did* that. If you really want to lay the smack down, make him a gnome, PrC 5 levels into Shadowcraft Mage (cause silent image is nicely located in the Gnome domain!), and rock out.

A few other nice builds, though not nearly as strong as the two rulers of the pack:

Beguiler//Archivist: Lots of skills, great stat synnergy, casting in light armour, the works. You can spontaneously cast a wide range of utility spells, then bust out the memorized specific spells when you need them.

Beguiler//Rogue: Swift action feinting, useful spells for the rogue role, great synnergy. By itself this is fun and useful, but when you multiclass a bit (say... three levels of swashbuckler, five levels of shadowcraft mage, three levels of scarlet corsair, one of mindbender, three of sea witch, and one of assassin... caster progression increase levels coming from the Beguiler side of course), you can become one hell of a skillmonkey gish pirate, and you've got the awesome flexibility of the shadowcraft mage on your side.

Anyway, the basic idea behind how to make a strong build in Gestalt:

1: MAD is not your friend. It must be avoided at all costs. Notice how all the good builds A) have full progression casting somewhere and B) use that stat for other things too. You should be able to pump one or two stats and be solid. If your build requires 4-5 stats, you've probably messed up somewhere... and don't forget con! You'll be fighting tougher monsters in Gestalt and you have the same HD as normal, most likely, so you need a few extra hitpoints.

2: Classes with similar archtypes but different implimentations, using similar stat usage, are good. In the case of things like Beguiler//Archivist, Druid//Monk, and Druid//Cloistered Cleric, a feat that helps one side likely helps the other. Often a special ability of one (such as Turn Undead, which powers DMM, or Wild Shape) can help the other side (such as druid casting, or monk unarmed combat) and this leads to nice stacking and synnergy.

3: If both sides of your gestalt have the same HD, BAB, and saves, you're missing out. Check to see if there's a varient class that is different. For example, Cleric//Druid is good, but all those things are the same. There's a Cleric varient called Cloistered Cleric that drops to 1/2 BAB and d6 HD, gaining skillpoints and a free domain in trade... so Cloistered Cleric//Druid is strictly better.

4: Often it can be best to chose a primary class, then pick other classes to support it. For example, let's say I want to be a necromancer. I'll take Dread Necromancer 20 on one side. Now, Dread Necros often like to tank, but they have d6 HD and .5 BAB with good will saves, so I'll want to work on that, and they're charisma based, using a lot of save or die spells. Also, he likes having access to outsider corpses, and can make touch attacks for negative energy damage. So, I want classes with good BAB and big HD, good fort saves, and charisma synergy, preferably that help me land my nasty spells. Let's say... Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4/Cobra Strike Monk 4/Arcane Duelist 2/Wizard (Necromancer) 1/Nar Daemonbinder 6. What did I just get? Well, Charisma to AC twice (from different, and thus stacking, sources), Charisma to saves, Charisma to saves vs. spells, and another charisma casting class with rapid spell progression that summons outsiders and has special abilities related to controlling and containing them. Anyone who gets near me now has -4 to saves from Hexblade and Paladin of Tyranny (yay for that dark companion PHBII class feature exchange!), and an additional -2 if I land the Hexblade's Curse, all of which stack with my fear aura shaking people (for -2). That's -6 to saves just for getting in range of my touch attacks, which I can flurry with for added insult to injury, and I can bring it up to -8 with a curse. Also, I now have through the roof saves, evasion, and mettle, because hey, at this point, why not.

Some GMs, seeing the above, may say "ah hah! That's why we ban multiclassing and PrCs in gestalt!" However, that build, while very thematic and cool and fun to play, and pretty darn strong, still gets its butt handed to it by a certain persistant spelled giant legendary ape wielding a spiked shilleleghed quarterstaff with a strength permanently somewhere approaching the tripple digets.

Man, at some point I just need to write a Gestalt Handbook.

JaronK

[Bears With Lasers]

Artificer//Archivist pretty much wins the crap out of D&D. So much cheese. So much.

[Fax Celestis]

Duskblade//Spellthief is entertaining.

[NEO|Phyte]

I'm well aware that its not near the top of the awesomeness list, but how would you people rate a Sorc/Archmage//Wilder/Pyrokineticist?

[Fax Celestis]

You going to psygish it up? It sounds solid, in that it covers all its bases. I would venture, though, that if you're going to go gish-like, then trade Pyro for Slayer.

[Ramza00]

I'm well aware that its not near the top of the awesomeness list, but how would you people rate a Sorc/Archmage//Wilder/Pyrokineticist?

Get rid of Pyrokineticist if you have complete mage. Its abilities besides the fire whip, weapon afire, and greater weapon afire are just too weak. Get a reserve feat instead. Heat Death and Conflagration just have too low dcs and Nimbus just does too low of damage.

If you want a fire pyrokineticist be a hellfire warlock and see if your DM will allow you to do a fire bloodline.

If you must be an elemental type character in gestalt. A elemental savant fire/silver pryomancer(eberron's five nations) is decent (make sure to get the metamagic feat from sandstorm that makes half your fire damage hurt fire immune). Or an elemental savant cold/Winterhaunt of Iborighu.

[JaronK]

I'm unfamiliar with psionics, and will only say that Wilder should be Charisma based for that to work.

Okay, next little lecture: traps to avoid when making characters:

1) MAD is still BAD! Wizard/Sorcerer? No. Paladin/Wizard? No. One class that really gets stronger in Gestalt because of this is... wait for it... Druid. Because they remove the need for strength and dex. Yes, the lowly, normally so very underpowered Druid gets a nice healthy strength boost.

2) If both sides of the progression give the same thing, it overlaps. This is a huge deal for psionics, which all add to a general power point pool... the result is that you should never gestalt two psionic classes together. Psion//Wilder as such wins the prize for lamest gestalt ever. Rogue//Assassin is trying hard for the same prize. With that said, similar abilities are okay, so Fighter//Psychic Warrior is okay (they both give bonus feats, but they have different restrictions so they're different abilities), as is Rogue//Ninja.

3) You can't have two PrCs at the same level. It's spelled out in black and white in the rules, but some people seem to miss this. No, you cannot have a Fighter 10/Warhulk 10//Barbarian 10/Frenzied Berserker 10. Nice try. That said, War Hulk does rock in Gestalt like no other melee class.

4) Unearthed Arcana itself suggests having two very different classes together to make up for weaknesses... and this is not a good plan. For example, Barbarian//Bard. Some cool flavor here, but since you only have the stats, actions, and feats of a normal character, this just won't work well. Sure, you've got good saves and HP, but your feats from one class will almost assuredly not help the other (power attack isn't going to help out your bard side... bardic music feats won't help out your barbarian side). Your stats are all over the place (Barbarians need Strength, Con, and Dex to rock out. Bards need Dex, Int, and Charisma). You can't cast spells (or likely use bardic music, ask your DM to be sure) while raging in combat either. You have made yourself a scitzophrenic character that can't be both of his parts at once, and it hurts.

JaronK

[NEO|Phyte]

@fax
Not gish so much as OMGFIRE. OMGFIRE pointed to the pyrokineticist, the pyro runs its DCs off of CHA, so I synergized the hell out of it. Mix of blasty and controlly spells, buffs on the psionic side.

Its a shame the campaign died near the beginning due to harddrive failure on the GM's part. :<

@ramza
Don't have CMage, I'll keep your suggestions in mind if I go for another elementalist in the future

@Jaronk
Yeah the Wilder is CHA-based

[Viscount Einstrauss]

In my gestalt games, there aren't any normal prestige classes. You instead draft, with my help, a balanced super class that's quite a bit more powerful then any ordinary prestige class. Utilizing this super class takes up BOTH gestalt slots. Often, though, this is a good deal since the complete customization offered by making it up lets you personalize a character to your particular tactics and tastes. Like in mine, the first level of the gestalt half-dragon's super prestige class let him sprout the dragon wings that are ordinarily barred from medium-sized base creatures, because the player really wanted wings without being a large creature. Or my DM Avatar, who's special class gives him crazy special abilities for dual-wielding daggers, something that's ordinarily a mediocre choice in metagaming.

Be SURE that whatever you pick the first time you make one of these with one of your players, you make that the staple by which you design the others, power-wise. Yes, there's the age-old argument here about how spellcasters will always overpower melee late-game. Here is your one, best chance to reverse this edict.

Also, only allow two of these per character, total- one available around level 5-7, and the other not allowed until epic levels. Both at 10 levels each, of course, and with the epic one substantially more awesome.

[Talanic]

It was mentioned before, but you MUST use fractional BAB if you want to avoid ubercheese.

Example character:
Level 1: Barb 1 Wiz 1
Levels 2 - 20 Wiz/Sorc

Without using fractional BAB, this character gets full spell progression as wizard, full spell progression as sorcerer, and full BAB to boot. The level of barbarian at the start gives the first point of BAB, and since wizard and sorcerer both are .5 BAB and the levels are now staggered, the character gains +1 BAB per level.

Instead, use fractional BAB, which means that the character gains .5, .75, or 1 BAB per level--always round down.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

How do you figure? If I'm calculating that right, that actually only gets the character a +11 BAB by level 20.