Evolution in D&D

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Evolutionary science tells us that humans are evolved from an ape species. On the real Earth, we're the only sentient life-form, so we don't need to think about what any other evolutionary track might produce, or might lead to some other species.
But in D&D, we have elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, goblins, orcs.... all manner of highly sentient beings. Some of these are clearly purely magical in origins, but others are far meatier, more visceral.

So - what did halflings evolve from?

My suggestions are:
Some sort of lapine Proto-rabbit => Halfings
Some sort of felid Proto-cat => Elves
Other (non-pre-human) apes => goblinoids

er...

Yes, it might be a silly concept, but what do you think might be the evolutionary ancestors of your favourite species..?

[Deus Mortus]

Well seeing how there are actually gods in D&D (by which I mean active ones, let's not get on with the religion discussion), I would pretty much say that there probably isn't much of an evolution and am more in favor of variosu deity's getting a bit drunk or playing a prank...

[Skyserpent]

I don't think there IS evolution in D&D... I think it was more of a... "ZAP" and the gods said "let there be people!" and thus, it was so. And all was good, until one god announced "Let there be Weapons Magic and XP!"

[Yuki Akuma]

Halflings are made from pixies, humans, elves, dwarves and orcs.

...No, seriously.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I always wondered how the Carion Crawler description can mention genetic modification. At least I remember it doing so somewhere.

[pestilenceawaits]

I played around one time with a evolution based fantasy alternate earth homebrew world. Orcs were the equivalent of Neanderthals, elves were actually evolved proto-humans who were exposed to mutagenic magic for too long. Halflings were proto-humans who very early developed agriculture and lived in a predator free environment so they needed less strength. Dwarves were off shoots of the Neanderthal orcs who began cave dwelling and moved underground and gnomes are offshoots of dwarves exposed to magic and changed.

[Telonius]

Halflings - a group of elves that was somehow isolated on an island. They gradually lessened in size, remaining as nimble as normal elves, but growing hardier (no con penalty) as they struggled to survive.

[Premier]

On the real Earth, we're the only sentient life-form,

No, we're the only sapient life form. Sentience is a much wider term and includes pretty much all animals.

As for gods and evolution (keeping it strictly in the topic of D&D worlds), the two are not mutually exclusive. Evolution doesn't describe how life or the world came to be in the first place; it only describes how existing life changes over time. There's no reason why a bunch of fantasy gods couldn't have kickstarted the world, then let evolution take its course developing the species that exist at the "present" time of the game.

[silvermesh]

To say that the fact that gods are real in D&D precludes evolution is oversimplifying, I think. If you check out the old school 2e Draconomicon, it went into great detail on the evolution of dragons. I would consider dragons to be the oldest race about. Every race will have it's own creation stories about how their favorite god made them, and their least favorite god made all the other races out of the leftover parts. This is how cultures work, and though they may believe it, it doesn't have to be true for the fantasy to still exist.

as far as humanoid races evolving... I think it's silly to assume that they would be THAT far from humans, evolutionarily. anything humanoid is humanoid. they're basically all related. to look at our own evolution, there were actually hundreds of "humanoid" races to come about, ours was simply the only one that made it. most prominently, you can look at the neanderthal. To me, Neanderthal is very much like the D&D dwarf. he is shorter than human, stockier, big-nosed, and prefers to live in one cave, rather than roam and hunt. this is what led to their downfall, but in D&D the dwarves had some outside force bringing food to them, or found a source of food within the caves. halflings would be a race that evolved on a small island(s). islands are ecologies where it is more useful for mammals to be smaller, and need less food. The smaller you are, the more likely you are to survive, so the more likely you are to pass on your traits, thus halflings are born(they found remnants of a "hobbit"-like race quite recently here on earth).
In my world, the basic humanoids all evolved from one species, goblinoids being another seperate but similar family, and the odds and ends like lizardfolk are explained on their own. elves and orcs, in my ultimate scheme are not a seperate race from humans, but rather the result of certain magical events on certain tribes of early humans.
gnomes I'm having a difficult time with. I can't say whether gnomes are like the "island" version of dwarves, or whether they're simply a crossbreed between dwarves and halflings(which would lead to some odd discussions as to why that would work to produce a fertile race).

gnomes are an enigma.

[kailin]

No, we're the only sapient life form. Sentience is a much wider term and includes pretty much all animals.

Please do elaborate.

The very broadest dictionary definition of sentience includes beings without consciousness, but the accepted meaning of the word excludes nonintelligent minds. Sapient merely means wise. What did you mean?

[Saph]

I always thought of D&D creature creation as a sort of competition between the gods.

"Lo! I have created humans!"
"Psht, they're just a rip-off of my elves."
"Well, look at my orcs! They'll crush both your humans and your elves, just watch!"
"Why do you have to make everything bipedal? Centaurs are faster and stronger."
"If you want strength, what about my giants?"
"All of your creations are pale imitations of my dragons."
"Oh really? You want to get serious? Fine. Deepspawn. Now I'll just clone everything you make and send it against you."

etc . . .

- Saph

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Hey, everyone I know that when you have gods that walk about the place smitin', you can pretty well throw evolution out - I was just sort of saying "What if?" and thought it might be cool to think about where these crazy species came from.

Also, yes, thanks - I still make that "sapient" / "sentient" error. But you knew what I meant, yeah?

There are WAY too many sapient species in a normal D&D game to make a straight comparison with the Real World. I mean, we have six playable races in the PHB alone!

I like the idea of orcs and/or goblins coming from various early hominid branches. It seems right. Goblinoids in D&D aren't the goblins of folklore, really - they're not magical enough. They represent the social / narrative niche of "frightening savages". D&D tends to have a relatively rosy outlook on the fey that goblinoids might otherwise be lumped in with (I say tends 'cause there are a good few Unseelie Fey in published D&D books). If we imagine our extremely ancient ancestors co-existing with Neanderthals, we can easily imagine them being seen as monstrous (though there's no evidence to suggest that we did - aside from our modern fear of outsiders).

Now Gnomes... They have some of all races' traits, and are the most inherently magical of all the PHB species. I've copped out on this one, with a Pratchettism: Gnomes are the result of sapient lifeforms' lingering unconmscious desire and expectation for there to be a magical race. They spontaneously came into existence because they should exist.

But what do Elves evolve from to make them biologically compatible with humans?

[silvermesh]

Please do elaborate.

The very broadest dictionary definition of sentience includes beings without consciousness, but the accepted meaning of the word excludes nonintelligent minds. Sapient merely means wise. What did you mean?

sentience has little to do with intelligence. sentience is the ability to sense: perception, the ability to see, hear, feel, and smell.
basically sentient means "awake" or conscious. sapience is your ability to discern, judgement. This is something that of all the life on earth, only humans have. most creatures can see, only one can ask itself "why do I see?"

that said, in many ways, to say a mind is "awake" is to say that it is intelligent. meditation is about reaching a higher consciousness. so, sentience can be used to imply a higher intelligence, though this is not always the case. To say "sentience" cannot be used in this form is just mincing words for the sake of causing argument. For many years, sentience has been the word used to imply a human beings understanding of the world as opposed to "lesser beings. This is an archaic use of the word from a time when animals weren't even thought to even see the world the same way we do. A time when humans weren't animals. the words use carries on, having dropped the implications it brings. I think everyone present was aware of how the word sentience was being used in that post. There was no need to clarify.

[Saph]

But what do Elves evolve from to make them biologically compatible with humans?

They didn't. :P They just happened to be created by two divine sets that got on better than any of the others. Sort of like the children of two families who live next to each other growing up together and eventually getting married . . .

- Saph

(PS - Tolkien, Eru Iluvatar, Firstborn, Lastborn, and so on and so on. You probably know the story already.)

[silvermesh]

But what do Elves evolve from to make them biologically compatible with humans?

In the world according to me... humans.

elves are humans imbued with the essence of dragons blood. this gives them magical prowess, and a long lifespan. this closeness to the very lifesblood of magic draws from their bodies and makes them more frail.

edit: of course in my world dragons aren't just running around marauding farmhouses. theres only a few left, and they're basically gods.

[Telonius]

Hmm, Gnomes. Could just be a genetic mutation from dwarves. Or some weird dwarf/kobold pairing, something odd like that.

[Fax Celestis]

There's no reason why a bunch of fantasy gods couldn't have kickstarted the world, then let evolution take its course developing the species that exist at the "present" time of the game.

Oooh! Maybe they're playing a sort of "god game", where they all set up their "pieces" (life forms, terrain, et al) at the beginning of time and push play. At the end of a set duration (three or four or ninety million years), the god whose followers have the most subjugation of the planet wins.

[Ethdred]

I think Saph and Altair's posts sum up my thoughts - there is no evolution because the gods did it - because that's what gods do. You could extend that to mean that everyone is involved in some sort of competition which is an extension of divine feuding. Also, I think that it means there is no change - every species stays as it is, separate and unchanging, except for certain allowed cross-breedings (and even then, all human-elf crossbreeds or whatever are always the same). The 'genetic code' always reproduces perfectly. Which means that yes, some god somewhere did think 'Hey, why don't I make a creature that looks a bit like an owl but has the strength of a bear?'

I did once extrapolate from this to posit that D&D worlds are always basically binary constructions, which explains why the CR system tends towards monsters appearing in multiples of two.

[JadedDM]

I generally find it best not to mix science with high fantasy.

I mean, from a physics point of view, there's no way dragons should be able to fly.

And from an evolutionary standpoint, it's extremely unlikely that so many intelligent races could evolve alongside each other. The competition for resources would see to that. That's why there are no more neanderthals.

So the idea that 'the gods did it' is usually used because it's simpler. I promise, if you were to run a typical D&D campaign with evolution, it would either be very inaccurate or very, very boring.

[Captain van der Decken]

Some sort of felid Proto-cat => Elves

So Elves are a race of cat-like people who evolved from cats?

They're gone, buddy. But look at the bright side -- they're gone, buddy!

elves are humans imbued with the essence of dragons blood. this gives them magical prowess, and a long lifespan. this closeness to the very lifesblood of magic draws from their bodies and makes them more frail.

edit: of course in my world dragons aren't just running around marauding farmhouses. theres only a few left, and they're basically gods.

Sounds a bit like Eragon.

Okay, sorry if you found that offensive.

[Thomas]

What, halflings evolve from? You're crazy. Everyone knows all the other races evolved from halflings in the Green Age.

There's no evolution in D&D. Races were created by gods, appeared from other realms, etc.

Sounds a bit like Eragon.

What, did someone mention the plot of Star Wars?

[MrNexx]

Oooh! Maybe they're playing a sort of "god game", where they all set up their "pieces" (life forms, terrain, et al) at the beginning of time and push play. At the end of a set duration (three or four or ninety million years), the god whose followers have the most subjugation of the planet wins.

Hmmm... and there's another god who wants to "win" so he's giving his followers some artificial pushes... meddling in their biology, making them more than they should be at this point in their development...

[Premier]

Please do elaborate.

The very broadest dictionary definition of sentience includes beings without consciousness, but the accepted meaning of the word excludes nonintelligent minds. Sapient merely means wise. What did you mean?

Sapient means "wise" in the common use of the word, but I'm using a narrower, more technical definition in this context. Since we ARE having a discussion about the matter that will possibly get into rather technical aspects, I daresay it's important to make sure that everyone's on the same page.

In this sense, "sentience" simply means the ability to perceive the world - in the animal kingdom, it's usually through vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc.. "Sapience", however, refers to the ability of abstract thought, which - at least according to our present knowledge - only us humans really have.

[Maryring]

In regards with animals, they have apparently finally been given both sapience and sentinence, so to speak. Recent research show that animals indeed do have emotions and feelings, and don't do things solely on instinct. Ravens slide in the snow because the game is fun, not because it teaches them balance. Mice choose their cheese by taste, and not by nourishment. The real question that still haven't been asked is "do they wonder about the meaning of life", and that... is pretty hard to answer since we can't speak with them. But yeah, from what I've read, any animal with a spine (generally speaking) is considered both Sentient and Sapient.

[Fax Celestis]

Hmmm... and there's another god who wants to "win" so he's giving his followers some artificial pushes... meddling in their biology, making them more than they should be at this point in their development...

...which is cheating on a terribly grand scale. But it's okay, because he's a trickster god. Unfortunately, he's an evil trickster god, and his minions are going to destroy everything. Queue PCs. PCs enter Stage Left, singing, dancing, and terribly unaware.

Except for the CN cleric of the trickster deity, who is all too aware and isn't sure that it's a good thing (or entirely comfortable with the idea of reality as a game--at least, a game that he can't cheat at).

[Xerillum]

Hey, stop! I'll sue you! La La la la la la la la!

[JaronK]

On sentience: Dogs can learn basic language, mastering at least 20 words, and can count effectively. Very useful for Search and Rescue dogs, who can run up to a collapsed house and, with barks and hand signals, indicate "three alive in here, at least one badly injured. Hurry." Octopusses are all kinds of intelligent too.

We're just the top of the pack.

On evolution and creation: In D&D, the Gods made the races. Also, Wizards make races. So do some other powerful sources. D&D is a great example of what the world would be like if there were a bunch of creators: a lot of things that aren't actually related, but are thematically very similar (like Legendary Apes and those weird 6 armed ape things). It's what happens when someone says "ooh, cats are cool, I bet I can make a cat-human-thing!" Bam! Catfolk.

As such, a lot of things look related, but are structurally totally different (see: manta ray, aboleth). Also, you will see two completely unrelated critters with one right in between, because one creator was inspired by two things (see: octopus, mindflayer, human).

It's actually a wonderful example of how earth would be if there really was a creator that just bamfed everything into existance (or if a few did it).

That said, creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive... in fact some critters in D&D specifically mention it. Magebreed Horses, for example, are just well bred horses, and controlled breeding implies that standard evolutionary forces are all in place. They're just not the only factor in a world with many creator gods, and there's the added bonus that creation vs. evolution debates on D&D worlds are exceptionally easy to resolve.

"My god created the world"

"No, it evolved!"

"Hey god, did you create the world"

"NO MORTAL, BUT I DID CREATE THE GNOMES. THEN ARCTIC GNOMES EVOLVED."

"..."

"Okay, fine, your god created the gnomes. But there's evolution too!

JaronK

[Fax Celestis]

"Excuse me, sir Ao. Did you make all and everything the way it is now, or did it evolve?"

"YES."

"Good answer. I'll go cower in fear now."

[Hyrael]

No, we're the only sapient life form. Sentience is a much wider term and includes pretty much all animals.

As for gods and evolution (keeping it strictly in the topic of D&D worlds), the two are not mutually exclusive. Evolution doesn't describe how life or the world came to be in the first place; it only describes how existing life changes over time. There's no reason why a bunch of fantasy gods couldn't have kickstarted the world, then let evolution take its course developing the species that exist at the "present" time of the game.

I'm a biology major at UWGB, and I've read lots of books by Jack Cohen, and alot of Sci-fi and fantasy, So I think I can safely say that I have a rank or two in the What the Hell I'm Talking About skill.

I dislike ID in all it's forms, even as a fiction. In most of the primordial accounts of D&D worlds (the ones in the feindish codex books), the gods were rather suprised to find life on the material plane. finally, they had something to kiss their ineffable rears and do their bidding.

I think evolution can be easily applied to D&D. The common races are all hominids. Goblinoids are the result of a completely different primate lineage (someone once suggested Baboons). And of course Magical influences are everywhere(thats how dragons fly and breathe fire. their intrinsic magic alters reality on a local level just enough for them to be possible). Elves are a lineage that split off early from early humans, likely due to manipulation of some kind (the elven gods). But, their long life spans precluded extensive genetic drift, so they are still able to interbreed with humans. Orcs are likewise a split-off, but they are natural. they split off after the elves, and drifted further due to their normal lifespans, allowing them to interbreed with contemporery humans (a certain ammount of mixing has always been going on, further preventing drift. Probably, all humans have a little bit of orc, and all orcs have a bit of human) but not with the older elf lineage. Halflings were a very early hominid branch, as were dwarves, though they themselves are not related.

Other sentient races are exactly what they look like. Gnolls are smart bipedal hyenas (hyenas are already pretty smart, and they have the complex social structure that fosters mental growth). Shauahgin are some sort of strange lieage of fish that has no parallel in our world (juding by their fully developed limbs, I'm guessing that they were a partially-terrestrial species that went back to the water. they cant be related to sharks. Its a common thing to happen. Dolphins, Seals, Iguanas, snakes, Icthyosaurs and their ilk, all terrestrial species that went back to the water where their ancestors lived. Living on land is hard, and requires a strong heart, real limb girdles, and other features. once you have these, you can kick fish ass. only sharks and squid/octopi can compete with previously terrestrial lineages. Shaugin just didnt spend as much time as usual on land before heading back.)

As for all the multitudes of monsters and races that exist, I could go on and on. some are obviously Manifestations of Ideals (outsiders) or created creatures (do I really have to explain how owlbears might have evolved. It says so rihgt in their description that they're the result of magical experimentation.)

Magic makes the world go round, but no creature uses more of it than they have to.

Edit: I would also like to endorse JaronK's above post as well. It comes from a person who is much less arrogant and full of himself than I am. His stance is probably the correct one.

[NullAshton]

"Excuse me, sir Ao. Did you make all and everything the way it is now, or did it evolve?"

"YES."

"Good answer. I'll go cower in fear now."

...I shall use my signature fu on that! If you don't mind you being in a signature that is.