Followers and Becoming a God

[Maerok]

I've been trying to track this information down for a long time: How many people are required to worship you in order to be a god? One resource I found online says Divine Rank 15 comes at 2 million followers or so (reasoning that 2 million satisfies "millions of followers"). But I'm just looking for DivR 1 for now. I hear it can be accomplished with Epic Leadership.

[oriong]

No hard rules exist for it, they're left up to the DM. I don't believe it's even the case that all gods follow the 'believer #s = power'. Although some game worlds do keep it that way.

But typically it takes more than just followers too, the use of some artifact, uber-powered magical ritual, or the support of an existing god are all typically necessary.

[themightybiggun]

Or killing an existing god would let you assume their its portfolio...

[Mewtarthio]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/div...tm#divineRanks

A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more.

Note, however, that Leadership alone is not sufficent for deification. The people must worship you as a god. That means they really have to pray to you and expect something to happen as a result. This may be difficult to achieve while you still live unless you're able to do a bunch of really epic feats, so faking your death in combat against a powerful Abomination (while killing said Abomination in the process) might be in order, combined with a few illlusions to make it appear as though your soul transcends reality after death. Also, before you start picking out portfolios, be sure to read up on all the rules of deification: You may need another deity as a sponsor or some sort of ritual.

Alternatively, you could just convince your patron to make you his proxy.

[paigeoliver]

If you are wanting to run a character becoming a god then you may want to reference the old D&D "Master Set", which has a good 10 pages or so on this subject, that includes instructions.

[KoDT69]

I have been a DM for roughly 13 years now and this subject has popped up many times over the years. I had a system in AD&D that easily adapted to 3E when the Deities and Demigods came out. The first thing I did was figure the number of followers required for each rank. I used the generic ranges as noted above (thousands in one category, hundreds of thousands in the next) then basically used a little basic calculus to develop a power curve for each divine rank, solve for X to get the number of followers. So we did have a structure saying 1000 worshippers scores this rank, 3 million scores another different rank. One extra requirement though was the fact that each rank must be also earned with some legendary feat or triumph that would make the mortal worshippers actually believe them to be a god in the flesh. I always agreed with the above statement, followers gained from Leadership do NOT count, period. But to pass the limits of DemiGod a player would have to be really heroic, triumphant, and well known in their conquests. Deeds done without witness never counted because you could SAY you did anything, but seeing is believing. Of course if deification is your goal, hire a buttload of NPC bards to follow you and hope they don't die. That will sway their rendition of the storytelling...

[NullAshton]

Ao has nearly nil followers, yet he's still a god. The number of worshippers doesn't determine divine rank that much, I think.

Of course, I would worship Ao anyway, just to tell people that you worship him.

[Deus Mortus]

Ao has nearly nil followers, yet he's still a god. The number of worshippers doesn't determine divine rank that much, I think.

Of course, I would worship Ao anyway, just to tell people that you worship him.

From SRD, when you get above rank 20, you no longer need followers, if your PC's get that high you might wanna include an epic quest or something for that rank...

Divine Ranks

Each deity has a divine rank. A deity’s divine rank determines how much power the entity has.

Rank 0

Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.

Rank 1-5

These entities, called demigods, are the weakest of the deities. A demigod can grant spells and perform a few deeds that are beyond mortal limits. A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more. A demigod controls a small godly realm (usually on an Outer Plane) and has minor control over a portfolio that includes one or more aspects of mortal existence. A demigod might be very accomplished in a single skill or a group of related skills, gain combat advantages in special circumstances, or be able to bring about minor changes in reality itself related to the portfolio.

Rank 6-10

Called lesser deities, these entities grant spells and can perform more powerful deeds than demigods can. Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods. They also have keener senses where their portfolios are concerned.

Rank 11-15

These entities are called intermediate deities. They have hundreds of thousands of mortal worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods or lesser deities.

Rank 16-20

Called greater deities, these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities. The most powerful of greater deities rule over other deities just as mortal sovereigns rule over commoners.

Rank 21+

These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

[squishycube]

Note that the text says they have worshipers, not that they require them.
I would advise any DM to just think of a system they like.

[Deus Mortus]

I'd say worshippers plus epic level should allow you to become a demigod, seems fair to me...

[Thomas]

It should never be about numbers; once you're dealing with gods or godhood, it should be about cosmic magic that the rules can't even hope to address, about incredible deeds in portentuous places, about unknowable secrets and transcendent passions...

Besides, first you get the godhood, then you get the worshippers. How many Faerûnian gods were worshipped as mortals?

The precise methods of ascension vary from world to world; in Faerûn, godhood has been earned, inherited, and stolen, at the least.

[silvermesh]

followers don't MAKE you a god, they let you keep existing as a god.
there are many methods to becoming a god, and having leadership probably helps with giving you some worshippers once you make the leap, but they don't cause you to ascend. You have to be fairly high level(usually around 30 or 40 depending on campaign), and most generally you do one of a few things. you can get a divine sponser, you can find some artifact that makes gods(ambrosia anyone), or you can kill a god and take his portfolio. Killing a god is always something i thought was silly. a greater deity can think you into nonexistence. What DM would have one let you kill it?

[Thomas]

Killing a god is always something i thought was silly. a greater deity can think you into nonexistence. What DM would have one let you kill it?

That's just lack of imagination. What person who actually stands a chance at killing a god is going to walk up to it and fight? None.

Killing gods should be just what it sounds like. To kill a dragon, you need plans, specialized magics and items, powers, allies, everything - you have to tip the scale way in your favor, you have to force them to fight you on your terms. With gods, it's that to the second power. Unique artifacts and locations of power, divine intervention and support, world-spanning strategies, distractions immense enough to occupy a deity's prodigious ability for attention...

And I'd certainly let players kill gods in most of my campaign settings (Faerûn, Glorantha - precedent exists in both). I wouldn't make it easy for them - in fact, it's pretty much "one ****-up and you die" - but I'd be happy to tailor my campaign around their apparently insane ambitions to destroy a deity. I mean, come on - how epic is that?

[AtomicKitKat]

To defeat a deity, you have to:

1) Think up a plan to create a challenge it cannot resist.
2) Make sure it cannot win. The classic "Ahh, you can turn into any animal, but can you turn into 2 at the same time?" trap is a good one.
3) Never mention it by name, so that it cannot get the free spy on you. This includes referring to it by code when relating your plans to your peers/cohorts/colleagues/fellow godslayers.
4) Save the hubris for after you have won.

[Mewtarthio]

Ao has nearly nil followers, yet he's still a god. The number of worshippers doesn't determine divine rank that much, I think.

Of course, I would worship Ao anyway, just to tell people that you worship him.

That's because he's freaking Lord Ao. He's the god of godhood itself. Deities pray to him.

[Muz]

Besides, first you get the godhood, then you get the worshippers. How many Faerûnian gods were worshipped as mortals?

"First you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women!"
Oh, wait. Wrong topic.

[Dark]

Do it like the Roman Emperors did. Have some shrines built to yourself, and appoint priests to maintain them. Then tell all your citizens that you're a god now.

Of course, step 1 is to acquire an empire, but for someone who aspires to godhood that should be the easy step :)

[Dervag]

I'd say worshippers plus epic level should allow you to become a demigod, seems fair to me...

OK, but it must be remembered that worshippers are practically impossible to acquire by normal means.

As someone else said on a similar thread:
"Mother Teresa has followers. Jesus has worshippers. See the difference?"

[Karsh]

I'd say that with enough uses of the epic Perform or Diplomacy skill, you could get worshipers easily enough. A DC 50 Diplomacy check against a hostile person, followed by a DC 50 Perform check will turn someone into a fanatic. Do this enough days in a row and eventually you should just stop having to make checks.

[Everyman]

OK, but it must be remembered that worshippers are practically impossible to acquire by normal means.

As someone else said on a similar thread:
"Mother Teresa has followers. Jesus has worshippers. See the difference?"

That may be one of the most clever illustrations I've read in a while.

Back on topic, most every gaming group I know agree that godhood is something HUGE and therefore should require a catalyst of epic proportions. For my group, the catalyst is the sponsorship of other deities (note the plural) and some epic magical and/or spiritual event.

Another method is for ur-priests to simply sap away at the strength of the gods over a millenium or two (by prepping their spells), eventually saturating their body with the essence of the gods. This is a self-designed method though, and would require a cooperative DM for it to work...and probably lichhood.

Finally, I found the "planeswalker" method to be a fairly cinematic method of achieving godhood. For those who have never suffered the addiction known as Magic: The Gathering, a planeswalker is a massively powerful individual who can wander the planes and perform godly acts with nothing more than thought. Typically, they are formed when a massive number of souls and lifeforces coverge within an individual and permanently fuse together as one entity. Something like that might work, though you are likely to upset quite a few gods by doing that. After all, you're taking souls from their protection and domains.

[Deus Mortus]

OK, but it must be remembered that worshippers are practically impossible to acquire by normal means.

As someone else said on a similar thread:
"Mother Teresa has followers. Jesus has worshippers. See the difference?"

"I am a God and if you silly peasants don't believe it, I'll introduce you to your own private hell on earth"


"I am one with nature and thus one with the world, if that does not make a me God what will, do you wish to converse with a deity that is not of the same blood as you or do you wish to give praise to a god who understands you"

"Yes I am very powerfull and although I am no deity, I ask you to worship me by loving your family, let your prayer be that of kindness and I will aid you when I can, perhaps I am no member of the Pantheon, yet I will aid you as one if you agree to simply love"

Three responses for three alignments (E/N/G respectively) that get's you worhshippers, offcourse you can also use the bluff skill, suggestion or simply buying your way into temple with a corrupt priest class. It is possible, ver much so even, but the point is you have to make a good case why they should worship you not some other diety...

[Mewtarthio]

I'd say that with enough uses of the epic Perform or Diplomacy skill, you could get worshipers easily enough. A DC 50 Diplomacy check against a hostile person, followed by a DC 50 Perform check will turn someone into a fanatic. Do this enough days in a row and eventually you should just stop having to make checks.

No, you'll get people willing to die for a mortal leader. The "Fanatic" state doesn't mean they view you as a god: It means they view you as a mortal worthy of everything. Plus it wears off after a while.

"I am a God and if you silly peasants don't believe it, I'll introduce you to your own private hell on earth"

That'll net you a bunch of peasants who will quite happily claim you're a god. Unless you do something godworthy, they'll never truly believe it. It's tantamount to asking a bunch of people if they think that you should run for president, shooting anyone who disagrees, and then claiming that everyone thinks you should run for president.

Now, if you manage to do a bunch of powerful feats that are truly worthy of deification (read: everything else mentioned in this topic), than this is a valid way of gaining worshippers if your pantheon requires them. I believe that it counts if the prayers go "Dear Lord, please don't kill me and family today, amen."

"I am one with nature and thus one with the world, if that does not make a me God what will, do you wish to converse with a deity that is not of the same blood as you or do you wish to give praise to a god who understands you"

Again, if you do something worthy of deification, this is a valid way of gaining followers. You'll be ticking off the deities whose followers you steal through politics (I imagine most gods would find such things beneath them, preferring their actions to speak for them), but you're still gaining followers. That is, if you've done enough things to even be in the running for godhood.

"Yes I am very powerfull and although I am no deity, I ask you to worship me by loving your family, let your prayer be that of kindness and I will aid you when I can, perhaps I am no member of the Pantheon, yet I will aid you as one if you agree to simply love"

See above. This'll probably get you on the good side of Good deities.

Three responses for three alignments (E/N/G respectively) that get's you worhshippers, offcourse you can also use the bluff skill, suggestion

The epic usage of Bluff can get you a suggestion that lasts ten minutes. That's hardly enough time to get you a lot of worshippers. Suggestion, meanwhile, only lasts one hour per level. Even if you somehow got it to last forever, and even if you somehow make your request seem "reasonable," I highly doubt that magical compulsion qualifies for worshippers. Heck, you could dominate your next door neighbor, force him to declare allegiance to Vecna, and then kill him, but where do you think he'll end up as a petitioner (assuming he wasn't already a secret Vecna cultist)?

or simply buying your way into temple with a corrupt priest class. It is possible, ver much so even, but the point is you have to make a good case why they should worship you not some other diety...

Buying your way into a temple won't work, either. The people have to worship you, and not just with lip service. Even if you got your corrupt priests to make busts of you all over the kingdom and tell everyone that you're a god, unless the people actually believe it, they're just pretending to worship you. If the people were somehow convinced that the new busts represented an actual deity they had to worhip, they would be worshipping some false creation that bore an uncanny resemblance to you unless you yourself manage to convince them all personally.

[Emperor Tippy]

Just a point, in 3.5 clerics can get spells from you as their god.

They are worshiping the ideal of you as a god. This gets them spells.

I just got an interesting take on a new plot hook for a game, the greatest secret in the universe is that the gods don't actually grant spells. The clerics grant them to themselves through belief.

[Jack Mann]

No, no, no, Mewth. You don't need to perform epic feats worthy of deification. You just have to get people to think you've done them. Depending on their familiarity with magic, this might not be all that difficult.

[Legoman]

And I'd certainly let players kill gods in most of my campaign settings (Faerûn, Glorantha - precedent exists in both). I wouldn't make it easy for them - in fact, it's pretty much "one ****-up and you die" - but I'd be happy to tailor my campaign around their apparently insane ambitions to destroy a deity. I mean, come on - how epic is that?

How are you now to comfort yourselves, you, the greatest murderers of them all?

[Jack Mann]

By gorging on ambrosia, I should imagine.

[Legoman]

And then stumbling about, announcing the news in a busy market. While holding a lamp, in the daytime.

[Thomas]

"First you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women!"
Oh, wait. Wrong topic.

Quoting Simpson quoting Scarface? For shame.

"First you get de money, den you get de power, den you get de women."

That's he most quotable movie ever.

[Luc]

How are you now to comfort yourselves, you, the greatest murderers of them all?

Hee hee! I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought of SMT2 in this thread. Especially after this:

If the people were somehow convinced that the new busts represented an actual deity they had to worhip, they would be worshipping some false creation that bore an uncanny resemblance to you unless you yourself manage to convince them all personally.

... which is, well, pretty much exactly what happened in the first half of SMT2.

[KoDT69]

What's SMT2?