The most unbalanced monsters for each CR up to 20 (or so)?

[Isamu Dyson]

Has anyone here ever taken a look at monsters from CR 1/2 to CR 29 and compiled a list of the monsters which are significantly, if not horribly, underrated at their assigned CRs?

Templates are allowed .

Whatever you post, please describe why it deserves mention.

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CR 1/2: Orc [Monster Manual]? Skiurid [Monster Manual IV]?

CR 1: Leech Swarm [Stormwrack]? Pseudodragon Monster Manual]? Revived Fossil Baboon [Libris Mortis + Monster Manual]?

CR 2: Fleshraker [Monster Manual III]? Lesser Cranium Rat Swarm [Fiend Folio]?

CR 3: Allip [Monster Manual]? Mirror Mephit [Expedition to the Demonweb Pits]? Monstrous Crab [Wizards Article]? Runehound [Monster Manual III]? Rust Monster [Monster Manual]?

CR 4: Hammerclaw [Stormwrack]? Spectral Lyrist [Libris Mortis]? Wyrmling Pyroclastic Dragon [Draconomicon]?

CR 5: Basilisk [Monster Manual]? Ephemeral Swarm [Monster Manual III]? Six-Headed Hydra [Monster Manual]?

CR 6: Will-O’-Wisp [Monster Manual]?

CR 7: Arrow Demon [Monster Manual III]? Bleakborn [Libris Mortis]? Cloaker Lord [Monsters of Faerun]? Nimblewright [Monster Manual II]?

CR 8: Drowned [Monster Manual III]?

CR 9: Adamantine Clockwork Horror [Monster Manual II]?

CR 10: Greater Storm Elemental [Monster Manual III]?

CR 11: Shadesteel Golem [Monster Manual III]?

CR 12: Chaoswyrd [Dragon Magazine Compendium]? Half-Fiend Greater Air Elemental [Monster Manual]?

CR 13: Ghaele [Monster Manual]?

CR 14: Trumpet Archon [Monster Manual]?

CR 15: Elemental Weird [Monster Manual II]? Omnimental [Monster Manual III]?

CR 16: Planetar [Monster Manual]?

CR 17: Klurichir [Fiend Folio]?

CR 18: Great Wyrm Steel Dragon [Dragons of Faerun / Wizards Article]?

CR 19: Maruspawn Abomination [Sandstorm]?

CR 20: ?

CR 21: ?

CR 22: ?

CR 23: Angel, Solar [Monster Manual]?

CR 24: ?

CR 25: Phane [Epic Level Handbook]?

CR 26: Great Wyrm Silver Dragon [Monster Manual]?

CR 27: Great Wyrm Gold Dragon [Monster Manual]?

CR 28: ?

CR 29: Demilich [Epic Level Handbook]?

[Spore]

Goblins that know how to "aid another" correctly. 4 Minion Goblins that aid the "Big Boss" in hitting the poor level 1 adventurer netting in +12 or more to Attacks. Carnage ensues.

[Zanos]

Orcs are actually kinda insane for 1/2 CR, 2d4+4 falchions with 18-20 crit has led to many a level 1 death.

[Isamu Dyson]

Is the Drowned (from Monster Manual III) the most broken CR 8 baddie?

[Big Fau]

Obligatory Adamantine Horror reference.

Allips, at CR3, are downright lethal without a Cleric or immunity to Mind Affecting abilities (very uncommon at 3rd level).

[Zanos]

Oh, obligatory that damn crab.

[Isamu Dyson]

Allips, at CR3, are downright lethal without a Cleric or immunity to Mind Affecting abilities (very uncommon at 3rd level).

What kind of pipe leaf were the writers smoking when they came up with the Allip? It's not even slow!

Oh, obligatory that damn crab.

Both the Allip and Monstrous Crab are CR 3. Which is worse overall?

[ddude987]

Don't forget the dread blossom swarm from MMIII

[Isamu Dyson]

Don't forget the dread blossom swarm from MMIII

What makes them a CR 6 monstrosity?

[Vedhin]

CR 5: Ephemeral Swarm, MMIII.

Undead, Incorporeal, Tiny swarm, 12HD. Int 2, and swarm damage is 1d6 Str.

This bugger can take out parties of ECL 10 or higher that aren't prepared for it. ECL 5 is a punching bag.

[Isamu Dyson]

Until proven otherwise, I think the (Core) Great Wyrm Gold Dragon deserves the CR 27 spot.

[137beth]

Are we talking only overpowered monsters, or are underpowered monsters eligible too? A lot of the most underpowered high-level slots are probably filled with big martial brutes.


Dragons are a decent contender at many levels for OP monsters, although they do have a few weaknesses...

[ArcturusV]

CR 2: Hiveminds from Book of Vile Darkness.

... Epic level sorcerers, at CR 2. I believe that says enough about most unbalanced.

CR 1: Leech Swarm from It's Wet Outside.

Seriously at CR 1, there's no way in hell anyone is going to be able to deal with them around the levels they're supposed to be encountered at. The DC 20 + Spell level check for casting at the swarm, IF you pass the save versus nauseated, means that even if you do have a wizard who could fry it.... they're probably not going to be able to. 1d6 damage plus 1 Con damage every round. With their +16 to hide they can roughly hit you about 4 time before you even have a 50/50 shot of noticing that you're almost/already dead from it. Ain't hard to TPK parties with this.

[Incanur]

Allips are way worse than monstrous crabs. Various 3rd-level parties will literally have no way to harm an allip, as nobody can afford a +1 weapon at this point. Lower-level parties - for which allips shouldn't overwhelming - are in even worse shape. If you don't have a cleric, you're probably screwed - and even with a cleric it's not any easy encounter because of turn resistance and the fact that the cleric might get fascinated. Against an allip, there's no way to escape if you can't damage it, and it's smart enough (11 Int) to take advantage of being incorporeal. The crap has massive stats, but no brains, ability to pass through barriers unhindered, or near immunity to damage. A pouncing barbarian actually has a good chance of killing it outright in the first round if the barb wins initiative. On the other hand, an allip can't actually kill you - just leave you helpless - while the crab will kill you and eat you.

[TuggyNE]

Tarrasque. Wayyyy over-CRed, mostly due to a lack of immunities and its sharp limitations on attacking anything that's not dragging its feet slowly on the ground of the material plane.

[Big Fau]

What kind of pipe leaf were the writers smoking when they came up with the Allip? It's not even slow!

Both the Allip and Monstrous Crab are CR 3. Which is worse overall?

I'd say the Allip, as it can kill the crab. The Crab also got nerfed in Stormwrack IIRC.

[Isamu Dyson]

CR 2: Hiveminds from Book of Vile Darkness.

... Epic level sorcerers, at CR 2. I believe that says enough about most unbalanced.

I'll go take a look at the BoVD...

CR 1: Leech Swarm from It's Wet Outside.

What is "It's Wet Outside"?

[Incanur]

The ibrandlin is a contender for CR 5.

The runehound from MM3 for CR 3.

[Vedhin]

I'll go take a look at the BoVD...



What is "It's Wet Outside"?

Stormwrack.

Guide to the annoying, semi-common alternate names along this line:

It's Cold Outside=Frostburn
It's Hot Outside=Sandstorm
It's Wet Outside=Stormwrack

And occasionally:
It's Croweded Outside=Cityscape
It's Not Outside=Dungeonscape

The ibrandlin is a contender for CR 5.

The Ephemeral Swarm eats it for breakfast, since the ibrandlin can't hit incorporeal things. Lunch and dinner are unsuspecting adventurers of level 10ish and under. Snack is level 5 adventurers.

[Eldariel]

I assume this is stock creatures (e.g. no Dragons or advanced monsters since they basically always have to be customized)?

Fleshraker is pretty horrid as a CR 2 encounter.


Allip vs. Crab (the online crab since that's the scary one; if we use Stormwrack Crab, ignore this discussion): Allip is horrible even if you do have a Cleric it's getting Temp HP shields while your team is whiffing in the air and if you Turn it (through its Turn Resistance; it's a 6 HD creature for that purpose), it just runs through walls and comes back achieving basically nothing (you need Sun-domain Cleric and even there, he's not favored to succeed on ECL 3). And it's immune to basically everything useful you could throw at it.

Command Undead would be just about your only recourse for a level 3 party (let alone a party who comes across one as a challenging encounter on level 1-2) which, if successful, still causes Wisdom damage (and allows Will-save at the Allip's +4 bonus meaning you probably need it as a prepared spell and even there, you're looking at about 40% chance of failure and you usually don't have multiple Command Undeads prepared on level 3). 26 HP is plenty to take the occasional hit from a bruiser even if they do have a magic weapon (50% miss chance + AC 15 = hit chances aren't spectacular for a low level character even if it isn't inside a wall) and that's if the beatstick made the save vs. Babble. Even if you do deal with it though the Wisdom Drain can have crippling consequences, especially on divine casters.


That said, That Damn Crab is an absurdly tough bruiser. AC 19 is a lot on this level, 66 HP is a lot, 40' move speed means kiting-based strategies are more or less infeasible and if it hits + improved grabs + constricts successfully it probably just kills you (few level 1-3 characters have 27 HP, which it averages; and few have a reasonable chance of resisting +19 grapple).

It just doesn't really have an exploitable weakness. You can Glitterdust and Web it to buy time if the party is level 3 but you need to somehow deal with it. And it's supposedly a valid encounter for level 1 characters who have none of the magic necessary to do anything to it.


The biggest thing in That Damn Crab's favor is unlike Allip, it's brutal. It kills fast. Allip usually takes a bit longer (though since it bypasses HP and uses touch attacks it's more dangerous for higher level characters). Then again, level 1 characters can't really damage Allip (Magic Missile & al. will mostly be absorbed by its temporary HP). I'd say level 1 they're equally bad (Allip is hopeless; you can't harm it unless you have access to Magic Weapon and honestly, Allip can just escape if harmed and come back later; while insane it is fairly intelligent - That Damn Crab just stomps all over you though at least Color Spray/Grease might hold it at bay for a round or two), level 2 Crab is worse (they probably have Scroll of Magic Weapon or two so they might stand a chance at at least holding Allip back while That Damn Crab still kills them with reckless abandon), level 3 and higher Allip is worse (level 3 characters can actually survive one round vs. the Crab and they have the spells to inconvenience it so that it can actually be fought, while Allip is ignoring peoples' HP and still being a bitch to hit and immune to most spells).

[Isamu Dyson]

The runehound from MM3 for CR 3.

DR 5/Silver and Fast Healing 3 can be nasty. What else makes this beastie worthy of the CR 3 spot?

[CTrees]

There's always the revived fossil baboon at CR1, but I don't recall if that's in a book, or if that's just an unfortunate template application.

[Incanur]

The runehound also has 50ft speed, 10ft reach with Combat Reflexes and Dex 14, web breath, 500ft blindsight, and immunity to flanking.

The ephemeral swarm does probably take the CR 5 spot, though the ibrandlin can kill faster. It's kind of like the allip vs. monstrous crab.

[Isamu Dyson]

There's always the revived fossil baboon at CR1, but I don't recall if that's in a book, or if that's just an unfortunate template application.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...041001a&page=3

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Baboon

AC 24 (!), HP 27 (!), Damage Reduction 10/Adamantine (!), 40 foot land speed / 30 foot climb speed, and Undead immunities make for a fearsome CR 1 encounter...

[Big Fau]

The runehound also has 50ft speed, 10ft reach with Combat Reflexes and Dex 14, web breath, 500ft blindsight, and immunity to flanking.

The Web breath weapon is an absolute killer, but 500ft blindsight takes the cake. Absolute nightmare without Darkstalker, damn difficult with. It gives the Allip a run for its money.

[bekeleven]

The runehound also has 50ft speed, 10ft reach with Combat Reflexes and Dex 14, web breath, 500ft blindsight, and immunity to flanking.

The ephemeral swarm does probably take the CR 5 spot, though the ibrandlin can kill faster. It's kind of like the allip vs. monstrous crab.

In addition to web breath, it has 5d6 acid breath with the same range (100') and a separate cooldown. So it kites the party while lobbing webs and acid, and anybody that gets a charge off takes AoOs.

[Incanur]

If templates count, though, we may end seeing a lot of the same critters on the list.

[Isamu Dyson]

If templates count, though, we may end seeing a lot of the same critters on the list.

Fair enough. Templates are allowed, but try to avoid overusing them.

[Eldariel]

Ah yes, the "why" on Fleshraker [MM3]: it has 4 attacks + rake (albeit only two at +6; two are +1 and rake is +2). Both the primary Claws and one secondary apply DC 14 Fort-save poison that does 1d6 Dex damage (so if you fail the save, your AC will drop which means this thing's full attack will hurt that much more). Furthermore, it gets a free trip in conjunction with its charge, and a free grapple if that succeeds. Oh, and it has AC 20. Its saves are pretty good too aside from the +3 Will-save, which suggests to me that you ought to Color Spray it. It's still a one-round killer

So, to reiterate:
Charge +8/+8 Claws for 1d6+3 (plus DC 14 Fort poison), +4 Rake for 1d6+2, +3 Bite for 1d6+1 & +3 Tail for 1d6+1 (plus DC 14 Fort poison). If any of those hits, free Trip at +3. If that succeeds, free Grapple at +6.

AC 20, +4 Initiative, +12 Hide, 50' move speed (100' Charge distance).

CR 2. Though if someone can find a superscary alternative that doesn't have the Will-save weakness or is more intelligent, that will top this. Still, I posit Fleshraker.


CR 9 should probably be Adamantine Clockwork Horror [MM2], as mentioned earlier. 28 AC, Construct traits, 16 HD for 88 HP, 22 SR, +18 melee for 2d10+7, but the kicker? Spell-likes: Disintegrate, Implosion, Disjunction At Will. Okay, so the save DCs are only DC 24 but how many ECL 9 (let alone ECL 5-6) parties can handle Disjunction? Best part is, even if you do beat it, it has like no treasure (50%, gems only) and you probably lost most of your magic items. To add insult to injurity, it has Improved Sunder as a bonus feat. Best part? Its weakness is that Shatter blinds it for 1d4+1 rounds (if you get through the spell resistance) but what does it care? Disjunction is an AOE.

[ddude987]

What makes them a CR 6 monstrosity?

The paralysis ability does not say when to make a save, so RAW you make infinite saves and are therefore auto paralyzed.