Ye Olde Magic Shoppe on my back...

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Alright, I've looked around, I've compared, and I'm flummoxed.

Standard 10th level human warrior. Say he's wearing +5 full-plate. AC of 23. Maximum dex he can get out of it is +1, so lets say he's got Dexterity of at least 12. Lets throw in a heavy shield for another +2.

So an AC of 26 when ramping up your armor about as good as you can go.

Congratulations, a standard CR 7 dire bear can hit you with a roll of 6.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Standard 10th level elven rogue. Say he started out with a dex of 18, +2 racial bonus, +2 increase for leveling. AC of 22. Wearing +5 leather armor.

So you've fancied up good, thats a CR of 29. Now we're getting somewhere... now same dire bear must roll a 10. So he still hits you half the time.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Take away the magic however and they are mincemeat. So, my question is, is it just pure HP that keeps players going? Sure, you are getting slashed up, but you can take it?

Honestly, this rankles at me. Take away the armor and the most skilled warrior is still likely to get as thrashed as your standard 1st level commoner. This is stupid.

So you go to the special Defense Bonus System from Unearthed Arcana. This is a bit better, but it doesn't stack with armor.

Query: Why in the glass eye of Vecna not?

I mean, you would think that the mightiest warrior in the world would be able to duck and weave while wearing his chain shirt. Thing is, if you don't use the variant, he's out of luck.


So, sure, you can throw in Combat Expertise, and after that Improved Combat Expertise. Worth their weight in gold these feats. However, your standard barbarian with Int as his dump stat can't take it. In fact, many fighters won't either.

You also have to cash in on two feats to get some decent defence.


So I guess my question is, unless you really, really work at it, how does anyone survive your average battle without wearing super-uber magic? Stuff that if you put it on your 1st level commoner they would now be as hard to hit as the Great Hero.

This seems utterly ridiculous. Any warrior worth his salt should be able to defend themselves without requiring their armor to be enchanted out the wazoo.

[Matthew]

The Active Dodge, Parry or Block are what ended up in my Homebrew. Basically Opposed Rolled Armour Class. I limit the number by number of attacks of the Player Character and attempts are only made against attacks that would otherwise hit.

Otherwise it is Magic [A 10th Level Fighter might have an Animated and Enchanted Shield, Ring of Protection, Weapon of Defence, etc... ], Feats, Defensive Fighting and Hit Points, as you say.

Almost certainly, the Fighter you present is better off with multiple +X items than one +5: Amulet of Natural Armour +1 (2,000 GP), Ring of Protection +1 (2,000 GP), Full Plate Armour +3 (10,500 GP), Heavy Shield +3 (about 8,000 GP) and such...
+5 Full Plate Armour = 27,000 GP (give or take)

The variant Damage Reduction and Defence Bonus Rules work together rather well as alternate rules.

Alternatively, Conan D20 is the answer...

[PinkysBrain]

Standard 10th level elven rogue. Say he started out with a dex of 18, +2 racial bonus, +2 increase for leveling. AC of 22. Wearing +5 leather armor.

So you've fancied up good, thats a CR of 29.

Dex of 22, the armor would be +5 mithril chain shirt ... AC would be 25 (before other items, which he would likely also have).

I don't really see the problem ... your hitpoints do represent your ability to take more punishment, and if you want to train in being able to dodge attacks from your own innate ability alone be a VoP monk or ninja or something.

[oriong]

Problem with the stats you've presented:

Taking the maximum + value of the item does not mean you have the best defense for your money. For instance, that +5 full plate mail costs 25,000 gp. A +3 set of full plate and a +2 shield grant the same AC but cost only 13,000 gp, nearly half the cost.

Take a +3 armor and a +3 shield and you've got a higher AC at only 18,000 gp, still costs less.

You can make it a +4 set of armor and a +3 sheild and be a net +2 higher and now you're at cost. Or you could take the +3/+3 set, buy an amulet of natural armor and a ring of deflection and you're at a total of +3 higher for only 22,000 gp. Give your longsword defending and it'll go even higher.

The same strategy works just fine for your Dex-centric rogue. Drop the leather armor to +3 and give them a set of boots of Dex +4, and the AC is the same, but you've got better reflex saves and attack rolls. Or slap on a buckler and the AC goes higher.



As for the bear example (which I should point out is an exceptional melee combatant for it's CR, because it's so easily defeated in other ways. A melee fight would a Dire bear is probably something like EL 8 or 9)

The fighter could simply fight defensively, I've already shown that his AC should be 28 or 29 (that's an 9 or 10 to hit), if he fights defensively he sacrifices -4 to attack (the bear's AC is only 17, he shouldn't have much problem hitting) in exchange for +2 AC, making the bear hit only on an 11-12 for it's claws and 17-18 for the bite. The rogue could get the same benefit and be hit only on a 14-15 with the claws or a natural 20 with the bite.


Ultimately it does come down to hit points though, that's why fighters and barbarians get plenty of them, they're meant to be able to weather combat with things like the dire bear. The hit points are what makes the difference between an experienced fighter and a green one in a bunch of magical gear.

[Hileria]

Standard 10th level human warrior. Say he's wearing +5 full-plate. AC of 23. Maximum dex he can get out of it is +1, so lets say he's got Dexterity of at least 12. Lets throw in a heavy shield for another +2.

So an AC of 26 when ramping up your armor about as good as you can go.

Congratulations, a standard CR 7 dire bear can hit you with a roll of 6.

And you as a 10th level fighter, even with just a 12 in strength for the +1 to hit adjustment, and assuming you spent all your cash on defensive items and have no feats like weapon focus, are going to hit the standard CR7 dire bear (AC 17) with a 6 as well. Sounds fair to me.

[Wehrkind]

I kind of wish there were opposed rolls to hit as well. Combat expertise and defensive fighting are all well and good, but I would still like some sort of opposed roll. Perhaps they do away with it for the sake of flow, which I can understand.
Maybe adding an AC bonus per level based on class. Sort of like the monk, but toned down a bit.

[Matthew]

Use the variant in the DMG, it offers opposed rolls for combat. Normal Armour Class is like 'taking 10'.

[Seatbelt]

make it optional. Suggest taking 10 to your players in most cases, and then remind them when the giant gets 28 to hit with a natural 2, that they can roll to increase their AC.

[PinkysBrain]

Opposed rolls are a completely orthogonal issue.

Vorpal Tribble wants a mechanic which would let a high level character more easily avoid an attack irrelevant of his equipment ... any mechanic which can do that can be implemented both with opposed rolls or DCs, instead of an opposed attack roll for parrying you can simply use the opponents BAB to set a DC.

Personally I wish they had abolished all opposed rolls in 3e.

[Jack_Simth]

It's one of those quirks of 3.5; appropriet equipment is assumed to be in use at the appropriet level.

Bearing in mind the relative ease of item creation, and the average amount of treasure produced by the random treasure table, which is better?

1) CR is balanced around unequipped PC's
2) CR is balanced around PC's with particular values of equipment that are approximately what a PC is liable to have with the treasure and encounter tables?

Given the treasure values and the ease of making items, 1) will mean that you'll have to up the CR of encounters if the party has the amount of wealth they're liable to get. 2) Means that the Fighter is expected to be decked out with some +2 armor, +2 Ring of Deflection, +2 Cloak of Resistence, +2 .... et cetera.

It's a quirk of 3.5. Beats guessing, though.

Oh, and on a side note, with normal armor, AC bonus + Max Dex = 7, 8, or 9.

[Cruiser1]

Don't worry about defense. Focus on offense, and kill the Dire Bear before you run out of hp. :) Yes, some monsters can hit you most if not all the time. This especially starts happening at higher levels. To counter this, use strategies where getting hit doesn't matter, such as killing the monster quickly, fighting it from range, or waiting for a caster to entangle/fear/whatever it first so you can chop it up safely.

[Thomas]

The OP's post sounds like he's not actually played D&D, which is plain weird. Anyone who has played for a while has a pretty good idea of how often PCs get hit, and AC is a huge part of that. (It's called Damage-per-second in online games; I guess it's DPR in D&D.)

All d20 games that assume no magic items (Iron Heroes, Conan, Call of Cthulhu, etc.) include level-based defense bonuses (or, in Conan, the great active defense system).

Anyway, if you want a combat system that isn't about whittling down your opponent's hit points, play something else. Pendragon, RuneQuest (or other BRP games), and GURPS all have much better combat systems, and both RQ and GURPS feature active defenses.

[ExHunterEmerald]

The OP's post sounds like he's not actually played D&D, which is plain weird.

.................

"The OP" is Vorpal Tribble, a longtime board member who homebrews extensively.

Anyway, it is a little ridiculous, the AC system. At some point it sort of becomes pointless, at least for players. I think the whole system could use a change, possibly work in level-based AC bonuses that stack.

[Matthew]

A quick and dirty answer for Low Magic Games is to add Base Attack Bonus to Armour Class.

[Jack Mann]

Basically, D&D is equipment-dependant. Characters live or die by their equipment, especially fighter types. Change equipment availability, and you might as well make a new game, like Iron Heroes.

[Matthew]

I wouldn't go along with that. Dungeons & Dragons is capable of catering to a wide variety of play styles; decreasing dependency on equipment usually requires using variant rules and discarding the default Experience, Wealth and Encounter Level tables. Admittedly, it is easier to play a game already set up that way by default, but it is not the only (or always the best) answer.

[Bosh]

Alternatively, Conan D20 is the answer...

Indeed


In regular D&D I mostly go for "the best defense is a good offense" and try to kill the bastards before I get hurt too much. At one point my barbarian had an AC of 4 :) (prone, raging, armor eaten by black pudding, etc) and I won anyway :)

[ken-do-nim]

Alright, I've looked around, I've compared, and I'm flummoxed.

Standard 10th level human warrior. Say he's wearing +5 full-plate. AC of 23. Maximum dex he can get out of it is +1, so lets say he's got Dexterity of at least 12. Lets throw in a heavy shield for another +2.

So an AC of 26 when ramping up your armor about as good as you can go.

Congratulations, a standard CR 7 dire bear can hit you with a roll of 6.

I'm going to show you how to do this with minimal cost, assuming a 10th level party.

Mithral Full Plate: +8 to ac, max dex +3.
Magic Vestment spell from party cleric adds another +2
Armor bonus: +10

Heavy Steel Shield: +2 to ac
Magic Vestment spell from party cleric adds another +2
Shield bonus: +4

Dexterity: let's assume 12 starting.
Boost with gauntlets of dexterity +4 (or cat's grace spell, lasts 10 mins per casting)
Dex bonus: +3

Shield of faith is a first level spell that lasts 10 minutes per casting from the party cleric. Assuming he keeps you buffed with it most of the time, that's:
deflection: +3

Amulet of natural armor +2: +2 to ac

Adding this up, that's +22 to ac, or a 32 armor class. Naturally against something as easy to hit as a dire bear, you fight defensively to boost that to 34. At +19 to hit, the bear needs a 15. If your fighter has taken combat expertise, that's a 20.

Furthermore, your 10th level fighter fighting defensively & with full combat expertise has a -9 to his attack roll. Fine, but he has +10 BAB, let's assume +4 from strength (possibly aided by belt of giant strength +4), +2 from greater weapon focus, +2 from heroism (10 min/level spell from the party wizard), and let's say a +2 weapon = 20, -9 = +11/+6. Dire bears are ac 17, so he needs a 6, then an 11.

So to sum up, a good 10th level party keeps its fighter buffed as follows:
cleric: magic vestment on armor & shield, shield of faith
wizard: heroism

This enables the fighter to fight defensively and raise his armor class to 34, or 39 with combat expertise (40 with dodge!), against low armor class (but high damaging) foes.

[ExHunterEmerald]

So, basically, you need to maximize your AC with a bunchtillion spells and items just to keep up with the attacks?

[ken-do-nim]

So, basically, you need to maximize your AC with a bunchtillion spells and items just to keep up with the attacks?

Magic vestment is hours/level. The cleric does it in the morning and at 10 hours, it lasts through the adventuring day. As you will read often on this post, clerics & wizards who buff their comrades are using their spells wisely.

I speak from experience. This system works, and spending most of the day at armor class 40 makes the DM tear his hair out.

[ExHunterEmerald]

...and that will lead to a DM upping the encounter levels so they can actually hit you, and if you ever do need to use those spells per day on something else, that stays.
I'm sort of grasping at straws, though. I just don't think you should need to use the spells like that just to have effective protection.

[AKA_Bait]

So, basically, you need to maximize your AC with a bunchtillion spells and items just to keep up with the attacks?

No, you can just take the punishment as well. Either way works. It's better to work as a group and buff your tank imo though. Otherwise you will just have to heal him up later anyway.

[ken-do-nim]

...and that will lead to a DM upping the encounter levels so they can actually hit you, and if you ever do need to use those spells per day on something else, that stays.
I'm sort of grasping at straws, though. I just don't think you should need to use the spells like that just to have effective protection.

The DM won't need to up the encounter levels, because a 10th level party really should just hoze (sp?) a dire bear without taking much, if any, damage.

If the DM throws challenge rating 10 encounters at the party, then the foes will have armor classes in the 20s and the fighter can't take the full -9 to his attack roll and still expect to hit them.

As for spell usage; there's two ways for a party to play the game. One is called grandstanding, where everybody tries to be the hero and blow the opponents away. The other is teamwork-based, in which everybody understands their role and supports the other team members. As you can guess, I strongly feel that teamwork-based parties are stronger.

Now keep in mind that clerics can and should get hostile, but a few magic vestments and shield of faiths per day won't signficantly undermine their fighting power.

[silvermesh]

writing off combat expertise as "only for certain fighters" is your entire problem, here. Any fighter worth his salt knows how to defend himself. 13 INT isn't a huge stat wase, drop it on your INT, and be a better tank. this is less necessary for barbarians, because they're all about taking the hits and just bashing harder and faster than the enemy. Combat expertise is one of the most important feats a fighter can take. Most generally a fighter has enough BAB that he can hit MOBs easier than they can hit him, you have accuracy to spare, so drop it and make it so you get hit less.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

The OP's post sounds like he's not actually played D&D, which is plain weird. Anyone who has played for a while has a pretty good idea of how often PCs get hit, and AC is a huge part of that. (It's called Damage-per-second in online games; I guess it's DPR in D&D.)

All d20 games that assume no magic items (Iron Heroes, Conan, Call of Cthulhu, etc.) include level-based defense bonuses (or, in Conan, the great active defense system).

Anyway, if you want a combat system that isn't about whittling down your opponent's hit points, play something else. Pendragon, RuneQuest (or other BRP games), and GURPS all have much better combat systems, and both RQ and GURPS feature active defenses.

*makes a face*

I'm not even quite sure what you are getting at. I don't think you quite understand the guist of my post.

I've just always had a problem with that you have to be decked out the wazoo with magical items or buffs before you can take on hardly anything. And if you put this stuff on an average commoner they would be just as heroic.

I'd just like the PLAYERS to be the heros, not their equipment. I mean, yes, as mentioned, try to kill before being killed, but that just seems so overly reckless.

Heres why I'm asking all this (putting it in a spoiler tag so my players here on the boards know to stay out )

Spoiler

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Basically the beginning half of a long-term game of mine is taking place in the frostfell, the bitter wilds of the south. Though they will be recieving a magic item or two here or there, for the most part they will not be gaining magical enhancements appropriate with their level. Its just wholey unrealistic as even the mightiest sorcerer's tower is now probably buried in a thousand years of snow and ice.

So as they increase in level, spells and fighting, their AC won't be improving. I'm using the Defense Bonus to help this out (especially as most armors would freeze up solid via the rules), but even then I'm worried about them meeting some of the tougher icy denizens.

They also got most of their mundane equipment given to them, so whatever magical stuff they wanted they could spend every gold piece on it to start out with. Coupled with the fact that they have with them 2 NPC's of slightly higher level than they (though the players don't know it and they are basically the fodder, getting beaten up while the players do their stuff), 6 sled dogs each, and a couple other little bit of secret help, like one of the dogs being a moondog in disguise thats come to give them aid. So I'm hoping by sheer numbers that this should make up for their lack of readily available +5 swords.

However, it ticks me off how games like this are very difficult to run as the CR of an encounter takes into account that you should be decked out like a christmas tree on crack.

So thats basically my complaint, that any games that don't regularly reward one with magically enhanced treasure require a great deal of effort if its even feasible at all.

[PinkysBrain]

And if you put this stuff on an average commoner they would be just as heroic.

They wouldn't be able to hit anything and the first attack or spell which hits them means instant death, how is that just as heroic?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

They wouldn't be able to hit anything and the first attack or spell which hits them means instant death, how is that just as heroic?

I dunno, teleport into the sorcerer's keep, use an item to undo the princess's ropes, jump out the window the following round, and featherfall.

[Deathcow]

In response to the section in spoiler tags:

Spoiler

Show

You could just throw lower-CR stuff at them, then adjust the XP they get upwards to compensate for the fact that they're underequipped. I think there's a section in the DMG about harder or easier challenges independent of the listed CR.

[Matthew]

It's a valid complaint Vorpal. Adding Base attack Bonus to Armour Class might go some way to solving it, but it might not work for you.

I use a Dodge / Parrying / Block System.

Basically, if you are hit in combat, you can sacrifice one of your attacks in the following round to make a Dodge, Block or Parry.

Block = [1D20 + 2(Shield Bonus) + Shield Attack Bonus]
Parry = [1D20 + Weapon Attack Bonus]
Dodge = [1D20 + Dexterity Bonus + Base Attack Bonus + Lightning Reflexes]

Parry: You lose one Weapon Attack (or Standard Action if you intend to move) on your next turn.
Block: You lose one Shield Attack (or Standard Action if you intend to move) on your next turn.
Dodge: You lose one Move Action on your next turn.

These are all limited by the number of attacks / Actions you are entitled to.

Alternatively, you can use Combat Reflexes to control the number.

[PinkysBrain]

I dunno, teleport into the sorcerer's keep, use an item to undo the princess's ropes, jump out the window the following round, and featherfall.

The sorcerer has anticipate teleport, dimension doors to the princess and wastes him with a single spell.