Spiked chain build

[ken-do-nim]

Okay, the purpose of this particular build is to show off how cool it would be to nail every baddie within 2 squares (or more if enlarged) with one's spiked chain, so for those of you who believe whirlwind attack is not worth it, that's okay but no need to bring it up. I'm writing this tonight to add the new feat deadly defense into the fold. I like the feats I've chosen; I'm just not sure about the order.

Human fighter
H1: Exotic Weapon Spiked Chain
1: Weapon Focus Spiked Chain
F1: Dodge
F2: Mobility
3: Combat Expertise
F4: Weapon Specialization Spiked Chain
6: Spring Attack
F6: Whirlwind Attack
F8: Power Attack
9: Improved Critical Spiked Chain
F10: Cleave (or Improved Disarm) ** Edit: combat reflexes!
12: Improved Trip
F12: Greater Weapon Focus Spiked Chain
F14: Deadly Defense
15: Precise Swing (from Eberron book to deal with cover)
** Edit: Karmic strike
F16: Melee Weapon Mastery
18: Elusive Target
F18: Weapon Supremacy Spiked Chain

So putting this all together, if our hero is surrounded, he can attack a total of 8 adjacent foes and 16 others adjacent to them. Thanks to precise swing, there's no -4 penalty to hit the other 16. Too bad I don't have quickdraw in there so that he can't try to trip everybody, and if one fails he can drop the spiked chain and instantly draw another. I guess even a fighter can't have every good feat!

Anyways, thoughts, comments? I've only played this build up to 2nd level so I didn't even get the ball rolling.

Edit note: Duh about those 2 missing ones. It was late, I was tired, so many feats to keep track of ...

[Aximili]

I don't see combat reflexes! Where is combat reflexes??!!

[Skyserpent]

*sigh* This is one for Bears...

Or maybe Fax...

Where the hell is Thray!?

Yeah, but Combat Reflexes is a MUST. Along with Disarm and trip

[Njerus_Xhazekarath]

Maybe a dip in the Swordsage class (ToB) would be nice too. It gives you a free Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain, if you choose Shadow Hand as your discipline), and lets you have Shadow Blade feat, adding your dex bonus to your spiked chain damage as well as the strength bonus.

[jlousivy]

with improved trip you don't have the chance to be tripped yourself i believe.

trade out cleave with combat reflexes.

[TheOOB]

Drop cleave, whirlwind attack, and spring attack. They are all fairly horrible feats for this kind of build. If any enemy is so weak that cleave is used often, then you don't need cleave. If an enemy is so weak that whirlwind attack will kill multiple enemies, then you don't need whirlwind attack. You allready have the ability to move and make a single attack in a round, so spring attack is kinda pointless.

Your build needs improved trip and stand still and combat reflexes ASAP, by level 3 or 4. You can hold off on the weapon focus tree. Their only purpose it to qualify for weapon supremacy so take them at later levels when you allready have what you need.

You also need karmic strike(complete warrior) or robilars gambit, anything that gets you extra attacks is great.

[ken-do-nim]

It was late at night, and I was so excited about introducing deadly defense and elusive target that I forgot about combat reflexes & karmic strike. I will amend the 1st post.

[Yakk]

Whirlwind doesn't have to kill.

Spring attack lets you attack, then withdraw, forcing your opponent to move through your threatened area (and getting an AoO every round on them).

[Lidjis]

Weapon focus and specialization aren't really that important for a control build, and other feats work much better. Also, consider saving a feat by using a guisarme and armor spikes instead since in 95 percent of combats they will be just as useful as a spiked chain. Improved trip is also a must.

[pestilenceawaits]

This may seem like a simple question but does spiked chain get 1.5 times strength bonus and x2 on power attacks?

[ken-do-nim]

Weapon focus and specialization aren't really that important for a control build, and other feats work much better. Also, consider saving a feat by using a guisarme and armor spikes instead since in 95 percent of combats they will be just as useful as a spiked chain. Improved trip is also a must.

I suppose the downside to armor spikes is that you don't have all the weapon specific feats with it (if you have them with the guisarme), but then again you start out advocating against them so at least that's consistent. Aside from tripping, I think this is a fighter turned area of effect damager, so I don't think it is a true control build. I think this guy would be great in an army. Maybe he wades into a horde of goblins or orcs and takes out 20 or so at a pop :-)

PS: To the last writer, since spiked chain is a two-handed weapon yes it gives 1.5 x str damage & x2 power attack.

[ampcptlogic]

Spring attack lets you attack, then withdraw, forcing your opponent to move through your threatened area (and getting an AoO every round on them).

Yes, but always be aware of your surroundings

[pestilenceawaits]

Can you still get 1.5 str when using weapon finesse it doesn't seem like there is a problem with it RAW but it seems kind of counter intuitive.

[MrNexx]

Much of the RAW is counter-intuitive.

[pestilenceawaits]

Much of the RAW is counter-intuitive.

Sad but true. If I can apply 1.5 str. x2 power attack and weapon finess I think I just found my new favorite weapon (too bad I am so late to jump on the bandwagon)

[tarbrush]

It's why the spiked chain is considered teh ubar weapon in the game, if you'll pardon my leetspeak.

[Thomas]

What's counter-intuitive about it? It doesn't matter whether you're using Weapon Finesse or not, you're not just awkwardly poking your opponent with a weapon - you're putting your strength (starting from the legs) behind those attacks.

Elven courtblade; exotic two-handed sword that works with Weapon Finesse. I lub it.

[pestilenceawaits]

What's counter-intuitive about it? It doesn't matter whether you're using Weapon Finesse or not, you're not just awkwardly poking your opponent with a weapon - you're putting your strength (starting from the legs) behind those attacks.

Elven courtblade; exotic two-handed sword that works with Weapon Finesse. I lub it.

When I think of finesse I think of carefully placed shots. I just can't see a surgeon placing a scalpel carefully while swinging it with all his strength. I don't have a problem with it working but thinking about it the way I did made for a funny mental image.

[Thomas]

Your imagery is silly.

A rapier is the classical "finesse" weapon. The blows are carefully placed, to be sure - but fencing also includes some of the most "powerful" moves, like the lunge. You're using your strength, that's for sure - but you're using it cleverly (you don't just swing your sword as hard as you can; you move on your feet, you turn your hips, you extend yourself properly...).

The D&D concept of Weapon Finesse is pretty silly, anyway. It shouldn't even require a feat; most weapons should allow you to use either ability at will. But that's how the game works - it doesn't even pretend to model reality.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I had a look at the Sword and Fist Prc Master of Chains. It's pretty funny when you look at it closely and I think it might almost be worth it.

[Aximili]

with improved trip you don't have the chance to be tripped yourself i believe.

Yes you do, unfortunately. But when you add up all the bonus, it becomes pretty unlikely that you lose both the attempt and the resist.

[ken-do-nim]

Weapon focus and specialization aren't really that important for a control build, and other feats work much better. Also, consider saving a feat by using a guisarme and armor spikes instead since in 95 percent of combats they will be just as useful as a spiked chain. Improved trip is also a must.

I did some more thinking on this. If you get enlarged and you use a guisarme, the guisarme has reach in the 15 and 20 foot squares. The armor spikes still only reach 5 feet. Therefore you don't have reach out to 10 feet. The spiked chain user can use the chain at 5, 10, 15, and 20 feet. That could hit a lot of folks (and not leave any holes)! Admittedly I'm not sure how often the 10 foot hole would be a problem.

[Wolf53226]

And if you get Monkey Grip, you can use a REALLY large guisarme!


Although Monkey Grip SUCKS!!!!

[TheOOB]

Spiked Chain is good, but hardly neccesary. On the one hand, it requires a feat to use effectivly, and is considered a rare weapon thus you are not likely to find many good magic ones lying around. On the other hand, you can strike any apponent within reach with the full force of your weapon, unlike with armor spikes which do less damage and usually have worse enchantments, the chain can trip and disarm, and it's good if your aiming for weapon supremacy, which is great but arguable not worth it.

[Maclav]

I did some more thinking on this. If you get enlarged and you use a guisarme, the guisarme has reach in the 15 and 20 foot squares. The armor spikes still only reach 5 feet. Therefore you don't have reach out to 10 feet. The spiked chain user can use the chain at 5, 10, 15, and 20 feet. That could hit a lot of folks (and not leave any holes)! Admittedly I'm not sure how often the 10 foot hole would be a problem.

Being large would increase your spikes to 5-10 foot range, just as the would any non-reach weapon. The only downside to the spikes is that they are a second type of weapon, they are a light weapon and they are completely gay. :)

However, it is a rare day when you can't make your reach only weapon work... so its not that much of a downside. They work in a grapple too, which is nice.

[Thomas]

I did some more thinking on this. If you get enlarged and you use a guisarme, the guisarme has reach in the 15 and 20 foot squares. The armor spikes still only reach 5 feet.

Really? How's that? When Enlarged, your Reach is 10 ft., yes? How do the armor spikes lower that?

[Yakk]

Varient:

Weapons fall into 3 categories.
Finessable: Can use Dex or 1/2 Str+1/2 Dex to hit.
Normal: Can use Str, or 1/2 Dex+1/2 Str, to hit.
Brute: Cannot use Dex to hit.

Weapon Finness Feat: (requires +1 BaB)
Add 1/2 your DexBonus to your StrBonus to damage to-hit on a Finessable weapon.
The total of 1/2 DexBonus+StrBonus cannot pass your DexBonus bonus.
The 1/2 DexBonus component is considered precision damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

An alternate and improved version:

Fig2/PsiWar4/Pyro4/Slayer10

Feats:

1) EWP: Spiked Chain
1B) Combat Expertise
2B) Improved Trip
3) Improved Disarm
3B) Combat Reflexes
3P) Expansion
4B) Karmic Strike
6) Power Attack
6B) Improved Bull Rush
9) Shock Trooper

Advantages:

This character is pure cheeze. It combines both the infamous Spiked Chain Cheeze and the Shock Trooper Cheeze.

Tactics:

Anyone who walks within 10' of you is on the ground and likely dead. Anyone who successfully hits you is on the ground and likely dead. Anyone who provokes an AoO within 15' of you is on the ground and likely dead.

Improved Trip can be used in place of a regular attack for an AoO. If successfull (which it darn well should be with Improved Trip and a Spiked Chain, plus a size of up to Huge or even Gargantuan), you get a free attack. More on the obnoxious damage output in a moment, but suffice to say, damage numbers exceeding 100 is not an unreasonable expectation for this build.

Expansion is your friend. With a Manifester level 13, you can quicken manifest it if you get jumped, or expand yourself two sizes for even more obscene damage output. This gives you Large size (or better). You can even blow 13pp and do both at the same time.

Spiked Chain with a 15' threat range. With Str*1.5 to damage, and another 2*BAB to damage (if you reduce your AC by your BAB), and then +2d6 fire damage. Plus whatever you want to manifest on your weapon to make you nastier, and any enchantments (Concussive is good, for a +2 bonus it deals a flat +5 to weapon damage). All this damage can be dished out to every one who walks within 10' of you, or anyone who successfully lands a blow on you, or anyone you hit on your turn.

So we're looking at... 2d6 (assuming Large, if you have Huge thanks to Expansion, it's now 3d6, and if you manage to start out with something that has Powerful Build or Large size already, it can get up to 4d6) + Str*1.5+BAB*2+2d6 fire. So if we can swing a Str of 22 (through magic items and progression), with a mod of +6, and BAB of +18, you're looking at 9+36 or 45 damage there, for (2d6 to 4d6) + 45 +2d6 Fire + whatever enchantments and manifestations you stack on top. This, being dished out to everyone you want to hit within 10' of you, or anyone who hits you, or anyone who you choose to attack durning your turn.

Immunity to mental effects thanks to Slayer PrC. This is one tank you can't just Hold Person and nuke the party.

If you get Body Adjustment, you can heal yourself, making the cleric's job easier. If you get Body Equilibrium, you get DR/-, making yourself even nastier since your build is designed around being hit.

Unlike your build, this one can do things like Psychic Crush (Will save or reduced to -1 hps), Mindwipe (Fort save or negative levels), Dimension Door (which he can manifest as a move action), and more fun toys due to his manifestation. Most of these are either save or suck, save or die, or self-buff. It doesn't need to manifest any ranged energy attacks, it gets a 4d6 fire bolt for free as a psi-like ability.

By 10th level, this build already has all the main toys... having Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Shock Trooper, EWP: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, and Expansion. The rest is just icing on the cake.

[Catharsis]

Spiked Chain with a 15' threat range.

A Medium spiked chain has a 10' range, a Large one 20'.

[Jack Mann]

Actually, no. A large chararacter with a spiked chain threatens 20', while a medium character wielding the same spiked chain only threatens 10'. Why this is, I don't know.