Archivist?

[ken-do-nim]

I've heard mention of this super-class a lot on this forum. What book is it in?

[Brauron]

Heroes of Horror.

[ken-do-nim]

Ah, thanks.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Wouldn't neccessarily call it a 'Super Class', but it is pretty hefty. 'Knowledge is power'.

[Azrael]

Also available online as a excerpt from Wizards.

[TheOOB]

I still think artifacer holds the title as the most abusable class in the game.

The archivist can be great or horrible, depending on your DM. If you DM uses lots of different divine classes (cleric, druid, shugenja, ect) and makes the scrolls easy to obtain, the class is essence of uber. If Divine casters are rare, and the scrolls are even rarer, this class ain't all that great.

[Thomas]

It's a cool class, but it only really becomes unbalanced if the DM allows the character to exploit little loopholes left by the "can learn any divine spell" thing; if you really play that, you can get many, many spells at lower levels than you should (as paladin or ranger spells, for instance), and can get shugenja spells etc.

It's not an issue for me, because I only allow the archivists to add Cleric spells on leveling up, and my PCs won't find scrolls scribed by paladins, rangers, or shugenjas.

[MrNexx]

It's not an issue for me, because I only allow the archivists to add Cleric spells on leveling up

That's RAW. However, that still leaves the possibility of Druid scrolls.

[Thomas]

That's RAW. However, that still leaves the possibility of Druid scrolls.

A pretty minor issue. I can't think of more than 2-3 spells in the PHB that are lower level as druid spells than as cleric spells. (Also, they don't usually find druid scrolls, either. Why would they? Infusions, maybe...)

[Jack Mann]

My rule for balancing them (stolen shamelessly from someone else on these boards) is to have them learn the spells at a fixed level, no matter what class made the scroll. If it's on the cleric list, they learn it at the level it appears on the cleric list. Then druid, domain, shujenga, paladin, and druid.

Then I make some spells difficult to find, such as shujenga and domain spells. It's possible to get them, but they're rare, and to be sure of getting one, you have to find a caster capable of making the scroll and convincing them to make it for you. This doesn't have to be difficult, mind. Just so long as the spell in question isn't abusable, I'll allow them with a minimum of fuss. If I won't, they can't find it. If it's powerful, but not too bad, I'll just have them go through some extra effort to get it (letting them know beforehand, so they can choose to just skip it for something easier if desired).

[Mewtarthio]

Honestly, how many Druids regularly scribe scrolls. And of those that do, how many are willing to give them out to people who aren't devoted guardians of nature?

[Jack Mann]

Druids need money too. Landscaping contractors for sacred groves in the middle of secret woods don't come cheap, you know. Some adventure, some sell special "herbs," and some scribe scrolls. There are many ways to the, y'know, natural one-ness that lies within us all, man.

[tarbrush]

It's a cool class, but it only really becomes unbalanced if the DM allows the character to exploit little loopholes left by the "can learn any divine spell" thing; if you really play that, you can get many, many spells at lower levels than you should (as paladin or ranger spells, for instance), and can get shugenja spells etc.

It's not an issue for me, because I only allow the archivists to add Cleric spells on leveling up, and my PCs won't find scrolls scribed by paladins, rangers, or shugenjas.

You actually don't need scrolls. Remember you don't need to know the spell in question to make a scroll of it, you just need someone to cast the spell.Since archivist has scribe scroll, all you need is for your friendly paladin/ranger/whatever to cast the spell for you to make into a scroll with scribe scroll.

[Thomas]

You actually don't need scrolls. Remember you don't need to know the spell in question to make a scroll of it, you just need someone to cast the spell.Since archivist has scribe scroll, all you need is for your friendly paladin/ranger/whatever to cast the spell for you to make into a scroll with scribe scroll.

What item creation rules are you using? I'm using the one's in the DMG (and the SRD).

To wit: "The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires."

[Azrael]

What item creation rules are you using? I'm using the one's in the DMG (and the SRD).

To wit: "The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires."

Of course, having a Warlock in the party with the Archivist can further complicate matters.

[Thomas]

Of course, having a Warlock in the party with the Archivist can further complicate matters.

Why/how? I'm not very familiar with the class.

[codexgigas]

A Warlock can craft any magic item if the player makes a Spellcraft check. However, Warlocks don't get this ability until level 12, at which point, casters have begun to win anyway, and the DCs to craft items with divine spells are considerably higher than those to craft items with arcane. It makes the Archivist that much more powerful, but only at a point at which with good spell selection, they should alread be outperforming any noncaster in the group.

[JaronK]

What item creation rules are you using? I'm using the one's in the DMG (and the SRD).

To wit: "The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires."

Keep reading. There's another part where they make clear that for all item creation, including scrolls, it doesn't need to be just one person who can make it. If you get two or more people together to make the item, then you just need the requirements to be handled between the whole group. Thus, an Archivist with Scribe Scroll and a Paladin with the appropriate spell can team up to make a scroll of that spell.

So yes, Archivists are strong, but the player has to be creative and work harder to get the good spells than a Wizard would. A Wizard, meanwhile, just learns Timestop by leveling up, which an Archivist can't do... his free spells are always off the standard Cleric list (and can't be domain spells... if he wants those, he'll have to find a Cleric with that domain).

JaronK

[Fax Celestis]

Keep reading. There's another part where they make clear that for all item creation, including scrolls, it doesn't need to be just one person who can make it. If you get two or more people together to make the item, then you just need the requirements to be handled between the whole group. Thus, an Archivist with Scribe Scroll and a Paladin with the appropriate spell can team up to make a scroll of that spell

That's pretty nifty.

[Thomas]

Keep reading. There's another part where they make clear that for all item creation, including scrolls, it doesn't need to be just one person who can make it. If you get two or more people together to make the item, then you just need the requirements to be handled between the whole group. Thus, an Archivist with Scribe Scroll and a Paladin with the appropriate spell can team up to make a scroll of that spell.

I really can't find that anywhere. Can you give the exact quote, and maybe point me in the right direction?

[JaronK]

Page 282, DM's Guide: "Note that all items have prerequisits in their descriptions. These prerequisits must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or another spellcaster is allowed)."

So yeah, you don't actually need to know the spell if you're creating an item, you just need access to the spell. Another spellcaster can provide it.

JaronK

[Azrael]

Why/how? I'm not very familiar with the class.

A Warlock can craft any magic item if the player makes a Spellcraft check...

The salient point being that once they have this ability, (IIRC) a Warlock can scribe scrolls without knowing the spell.

And yes, the combo is not possible until level 12 ... right about the time spellcasters become das uber. It might even be the point where you really want to restrict your Archivist from having any divine spell handed to him by his own party member .

[Starbuck_II]

The salient point being that once they have this ability, (IIRC) a Warlock can scribe scrolls without knowing the spell.

And yes, the combo is not possible until level 12 ... right about the time spellcasters become das uber. It might even be the point where you really want to restrict your Archivist from having any divine spell handed to him by his own party member .

Why not a Artificer: they can do at level 1. This is why they get scribe scroll though they cast infusions not spells (infusions do'nt count for scroll knowledge even if a infusion is bull's Strength, still need to make the check.).

[codexgigas]

And yes, the combo is not possible until level 12 ... right about the time spellcasters become das uber. It might even be the point where you really want to restrict your Archivist from having any divine spell handed to him by his own party member .

Honestly, I think by that point, it really doesn't matter. The Archivist, by the simple virtue of being a spellcaster, outperforms noncasters. However, the class is weaker than either the Cleric or the Druid; yes, it can conceivably cast from either list, but it doesn't have turn undead, so there's no divine metacheese, and it also lacks wildshape, as well as being the only full divine caster class without some spontaneous casting ability. The Archivist is slightly more useful in combat than a wizard (since it's on a d6 hd), but a player would have to invest several feats (martial weapon prof., heavy armor prof., and shield prof.) to become as capable of a melee combatant as a Cleric with the War domain, and that's assuming that the Archivist has time to buff himself, since he's otherwise on a 1/2 BAB progression. The class is designed to be a primarily support class, and its best features, the Dark Knowledge tree of abilities (which are much less useful than either turn undead or wildshape), are dependent upon a successful knowledge check. The most abuse comes at getting spells at a lower level through Ranger and Paladin scrolls, but the DM can rule that Archivists can only learn from Cleric and Druid scrolls.

And as far as Warlocks go, a Warlock with maxed ranks in spellcraft, assuming an average roll of ten, can craft 0-level divine scrolls fifty percent of the time at level 12. To really start fueling the Archivist, the Warlock has to invest in feats and items to raise his spellcraft modifier. And the Archivist still has to pay to copy the spell into his prayerbook, which has a finite number of pages.

The Archivist pays a fairly heavy price for its ability to combine divine spell lists. Archivists can't spontaneously convert spells, can't access wild or divine feats, lack domain abilities, have a lower base attack bonus and a lower hd, and sacrifice cleric proficiencies to be able to pay for the privelege of casting ranger, paladin, and druid spells. And let's not forget that they get fewer spells per day than clerics do.

That said, it's a fun class to play, but it's no CoDzilla.

[MrNexx]

Hmmm... can an Archivist make use of Boccob's Blessed Book?

[Ramza00]

Why not a Artificer: they can do at level 1. This is why they get scribe scroll though they cast infusions not spells (infusions do'nt count for scroll knowledge even if a infusion is bull's Strength, still need to make the check.).

Scrolls made by an artificer by a dc check are artificer scrolls (according to the errata), for a non artificer to use such scrolls the class has to do a UMD check, even if that spell is on the class spell list (wizard has to do a UMD to use an artificer's fireball). Because of this archivist/artificer doesn't work.

[Ramza00]

To allow or not allow archivist as appeared on the CO boards. Note alot of people said yes, but with some DM houserules/guidelines to prevent abuses, they then list the rules abuses.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754303

One such abuses is Archivist 18/Chamelon 2 with the Chamaleon floating bonus feat which chooses a different "extra spell" (as the feat in Complete Arcane, use your lvls in Archivist to qualify for it), will quickly add new spells to his spellbook, one new each day. Luckily he loses two caster lvls, and the spell lvl max is one below his highest spell.

[Ramza00]

Hmmm... can an Archivist make use of Boccob's Blessed Book?

By RAW no, by a common DM house rule yes.

[JaronK]

Scrolls made by an artificer by a dc check are artificer scrolls (according to the errata), for a non artificer to use such scrolls the class has to do a UMD check, even if that spell is on the class spell list (wizard has to do a UMD to use an artificer's fireball). Because of this archivist/artificer doesn't work.

Ah, but an Artificer can work with an Archivist, with the Artificer providing the spell for the Archivist to scribe. It's easier with a Warlock, but since a Warlock can even make any arcane spell as a divine scroll, the Archivist can get any spell in existance.

Plus, with one level of sacred excorcist the Archivist can break out Divine Metacheese and rock out.

That said, they have a much harder time getting the good spells than a Wizard, so they basically trade ease of getting spells for greater variety.

They still can't melee like a cleric or, heaven forbid, a druid.

JaronK

[Ramza00]

Ah, but an Artificer can work with an Archivist, with the Artificer providing the spell for the Archivist to scribe. It's easier with a Warlock, but since a Warlock can even make any arcane spell as a divine scroll, the Archivist can get any spell in existance.

Any person who can pass the UMD check to use that artificer scroll may contribute the spell when an archivist scribes the scroll, it doesn't have to be an artificer. If you are in eberron and you buy an artificer scroll from the shop, your party rogue can do a UMD check and then provide the spell for the artificer to scribe.

And yes they only need one lvl of sacred exorist to get turn undead. If they are going to be using that turn undead for cheesing turn undead related feats, be prepared to get hit by the DM with his copy of the DMG.