Heal skill and some sort of added damage

[Suzaku]

I've always wonder why there are no feats that use heal skill for preq to add some sort of damage. I mean stuff like Sneak Attack is suppose to add damage because you strike the vitals and heal skill is suppose to help you heal someone because you know where the vitals are on someone and help mend them.

[Maltrich]

I think you're looking for something like Knowlegde: Anatomy or Profession: Surgeon. Heal is more like first aid; I wouldn't allow it to confer more than a general knowledge of internal organs.

[Suzaku]

I think you're looking for something like Knowlegde: Anatomy or Profession: Surgeon. Heal is more like first aid; I wouldn't allow it to confer more than a general knowledge of internal organs.

Yes a skill that allows you to know how someone died like forensic(sp?) science does today, this is including knowing if someone died from suffocation, poison or spells with no visible effect doesn't give you general knowledge of internal organs.

[Draz74]

Yeah, a lot of people seem to want to treat the Heal skill as Knowledge: Anatomy. There may be an element of anatomical knowledge in the skill, but maybe not. It has more to do with knowledge of healing herbs, and experience at setting splints or things like that. Even if it means you know, "if he's bleeding there, it's a top priority to bandage him in such-and-such a way," that doesn't mean you know, "... because there's a key vein or artery that runs underneath the skin and is relatively unprotected at that point ..."

[I_Got_This_Name]

Well, yes, but that's what dumping more (a feat or class feature) into it means.

[Mike_G]

Yeah, a lot of people seem to want to treat the Heal skill as Knowledge: Anatomy. There may be an element of anatomical knowledge in the skill, but maybe not. It has more to do with knowledge of healing herbs, and experience at setting splints or things like that. Even if it means you know, "if he's bleeding there, it's a top priority to bandage him in such-and-such a way," that doesn't mean you know, "... because there's a key vein or artery that runs underneath the skin and is relatively unprotected at that point ..."

I think that kinda goes hand in hand.

I'm a Paramedic, and in my experience the study of medicine inolves a lot of cause and effect.

Exactly like "there's a big artery here, so this is the pressure point to stop any bleeding below that point," and "trauma to that area of the abdomen can rupture the spleen, which bleeds like crazy, so watch out for any bruising in the upper left quadrant."

Either of these bits of knowledge could be used to screw somebody up as well as fix them.

So, I might allow a Heal check to allow more damage, or high ranks in Heal to be a prereq for some kind of precision damage ability.

[Lord_Kimboat]

Yeah, a lot of people seem to want to treat the Heal skill as Knowledge: Anatomy. There may be an element of anatomical knowledge in the skill, but maybe not. It has more to do with knowledge of healing herbs, and experience at setting splints or things like that. Even if it means you know, "if he's bleeding there, it's a top priority to bandage him in such-and-such a way," that doesn't mean you know, "... because there's a key vein or artery that runs underneath the skin and is relatively unprotected at that point ..."

Well a lot of my DMs make us do heal checks to work out how someone was killed or how badly wounded someone is.

[The_Snark]

I think that kinda goes hand in hand.

I'm a Paramedic, and in my experience the study of medicine inolves a lot of cause and effect.

Exactly like "there's a big artery here, so this is the pressure point to stop any bleeding below that point," and "trauma to that area of the abdomen can rupture the spleen, which bleeds like crazy, so watch out for any bruising in the upper left quadrant."

Either of these bits of knowledge could be used to screw somebody up as well as fix them.

So, I might allow a Heal check to allow more damage, or high ranks in Heal to be a prereq for some kind of precision damage ability.

This is true, but rememberr that you're coming from a modern perspective here. First aid in D&D consists of doing something because the character knows it works from experience and maybe a little intuition, not because they actually know what's going on under the surface. It's more concerned with stopping the bleeding than understanding why that particular spot bleeds that much.

I'm not sure how historically accurate this is, but it seems reasonable from a medieval standpoint.

That said, a feat requiring ranks in Heal that does something similar to sneak attack seems reasonable, indicating that the character has put effort into studying weak points on people.

[Draz74]

This is true, but rememberr that you're coming from a modern perspective here. First aid in D&D consists of doing something because the character knows it works from experience and maybe a little intuition, not because they actually know what's going on under the surface. It's more concerned with stopping the bleeding than understanding why that particular spot bleeds that much.

I'm not sure how historically accurate this is, but it seems reasonable from a medieval standpoint.

That said, a feat requiring ranks in Heal that does something similar to sneak attack seems reasonable, indicating that the character has put effort into studying weak points on people.

This is exactly what I would have wanted to say, if it hadn't already been written before I got to it ...
Or, as I guess they say on forums, "QFT."

Although I really dislike when houserules require you to be an expert Healer in order to be a competent Assassin, or anything like that. A few ranks in Heal giving you a boost to sneak-attack-like abilities is a fine homebrew idea. But it can definitely be taken too far. It's messed up when the killers are way better healers than the healers.

[SpiderBrigade]

I think part of the reason this idea crops up so often is that the Heal skill is kind of weak, and people are looking for a reason to invest in it. At low levels, even with maxed ranks your chances to stablize someone are not super-great, and at higher levels (say, level 12 or so, when you can auto-succeed at first aid) healing SPELLS are going to be waaaay better. Same thing for the poison or disease treatment. So, when people have a character concept who is a "Great Healer" (but not a divine caster) they're eager for something to make that skill investment more worthwhile.

[clarkvalentine]

Even coming from a modern perspective, medical school does not turn people into invincible ninja assassins, and I wouldn't go to a grizzled veteran paratrooper to get my gall bladder removed.

Just knowing where the things are doesn't mean knowing what to do with it.

[squishycube]

Even though Clark's post is hilarious, I think Mike_G has a good point. Like a true dutchman I will say: The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. (Look up "Polder Model" on wiki )
I think making underused skills more interesting is a good idea and this seems to be a nice way to do it. Let us know when you come up with a balanced mechanic.

[Suzaku]

Even coming from a modern perspective, medical school does not turn people into invincible ninja assassins, and I wouldn't go to a grizzled veteran paratrooper to get my gall bladder removed.

Just knowing where the things are doesn't mean knowing what to do with it.

That's what a feat is for

[Jayabalard]

I always figured that it's kind of assumed that most all characters are studying where vital organs are to a certain extent; it's just a part of your weapon's training. That would also explain why you can learn to be a healer as easily as you can practice any other skill.

[NullAshton]

Okay... I think of sneak attack as not knowing exactly where to hit, but having the skills to hit it during combat. Anyone can stab someone in a major artery or something, that's not too hard to do, and that's basically what coup de grace is. But sneak attacking is the capability to do that while in combat, while a person is moving.

[Matthew]

I think part of the reason this idea crops up so often is that the Heal skill is kind of weak, and people are looking for a reason to invest in it. At low levels, even with maxed ranks your chances to stablize someone are not super-great, and at higher levels (say, level 12 or so, when you can auto-succeed at first aid) healing SPELLS are going to be waaaay better. Same thing for the poison or disease treatment. So, when people have a character concept who is a "Great Healer" (but not a divine caster) they're eager for something to make that skill investment more worthwhile.

Hang on, you can just 'take 10' with Heal, can't you? The DC is 15 to Stabalise, so maxed out at Level 1 + Wisdom 12 = Automatic Success. That's my understanding of the Heal Skill, anyway.

[Golthur]

Hang on, you can just 'take 10' with Heal, can't you? The DC is 15 to Stabalise, so maxed out at Level 1 + Wisdom 12 = Automatic Success. That's my understanding of the Heal Skill, anyway.

Sure, but I wouldn't let someone get away with that in the middle of combat No taking 10s in combat - that qualifies as "under duress" to me.

[Matthew]

Oh sure, I wouldn't let it fly during combat, but most applications of Heal should be taking place outside of those conditions, at least I would have thought so...

[Golthur]

Well, in my games, I've found that a Heal check to stabilize is almost always used in combat, not after. Although Cure Minor Wounds is a close second - it depends on who's "available" at the moment someone goes down.

But, even with a roll, it's around 50/50, so it's not like it's really hard to do or anything.

[Matthew]

Interesting, most Heal Checks I have known take place after Combat, unless the situation is particularly dire (-9). Healing Spells in combat tend to depend on the situation, but are usually used before they reach 0 Hit Point.

If a Character was dragged away from combat, I would probably allow taking 10.

[Golthur]

I have fighters who won't withdraw and use healing potions, and I also have clerics who won't stand behind them and cure them every once in a while in my games, so that probably explains the difference.

If a Character was dragged away from combat, I would probably allow taking 10.

I'd probably only allow that if they were far enough away or behind cover sufficient so that they weren't at risk from any missile weapons. Otherwise, they'd still have to watch their back.

[Matthew]

Oh yeah, they'd have to be relatively unthreatened.

I have to admit, I have never really figured out what can be done in three to six seconds for a guy who is going to bleed to death in under a minute... hmmn, what was that feline sounding scream?

[Golthur]

Oh yeah, they'd have to be relatively unthreatened.

I have to admit, I have never really figured out what can be done in three to six seconds for a guy who is going to bleed to death in under a minute... hmmn, what was that feline sounding scream?

Shove a rag in/on it?

Yeah, I'm running out of room in my backyard to bury all the catgirl bodies at this point.

[Jayabalard]

apply pressure, preferably with a clean cloth but with your bare hand if nothing else is available.

[BCOVertigo]

apply pressure, preferably with a clean cloth but with your bare hand if nothing else is available.

....keep this up for 3-6 seconds then resume combat as usual. Making certain to drop your dagger as a free action first.

[Fizban]

Anatomical Precision
You can apply your knowledge of anatomy and physiology to combat.
Prerequisites: BAB +1, Heal 4 ranks, Wis 13
Benefit: Whenever you successfully hit a creature, you may make a heal check. If you do, you add the result divided by 10 to your damage roll as an insight bonus, i.e., on a result of 20, you would add one point of damage. This damage bonus does not apply to creatures without a discernible anatomy.

Improved Anatomical Precision
You are even more skilled at making anatomical attacks.
Prerequisites: BAB +5, Heal 8 ranks, Wis 15+
Benefit: When making an anatomical strike, you divide the result of your Heal check by 5, rather than 10, to determine the extra damage dealt.

Epic Anatomical Precision [Epic]
You are a surgeon of death.
Prerequisites: Heal 25 ranks, Wis 20+
Benefit: When making an anatomical strike, you do not divide the result of your Heal check at all to determine the extra damage dealt.

Source, by The Demented One.

[Closet_Skeleton]

My version would be something like;

Anatomical Knowledge [General]
Prerequisite: Sneak attack or Sudden Strike ability, Heal 6 ranks
Benifit: Your Sudden Strike or Sneak Attack bonus dice increase in size by one die type.

Anatomical Knowledge Death Attack [General]
Prerequisites: Anatomical Knowledge, Death Attack Class Feature, Sneak attack or Sudden Strike ability, Heal 5 ranks
Benifit: For every 5 ranks you have in the heal skill, you gain a +1 bonus to the DC of your Death Attack.

Improved Crippling Strike [General]
Prerequisite: Sneak Attack +5d6, Crippling Strike Class Feature, Heal 12 ranks, Spot 6 ranks
Benifit: When using Sneak Attack, instead of dealing 2 points of strength damage you may choose the ability you deal damage to.

[Dark]

Benefit: When using Sneak Attack, instead of dealing 2 points of strength damage you may choose the ability you deal damage to.

"Aieee! He's cut me in the charisma! It bleeds!"

[Mike_G]

Oh yeah, they'd have to be relatively unthreatened.

I have to admit, I have never really figured out what can be done in three to six seconds for a guy who is going to bleed to death in under a minute... hmmn, what was that feline sounding scream?

Tourniquet.

Or pack the holy bejeezus out of it if it's not an extremity injury. Or opening the airway if your buddy is choking on his own blood or has a crushed trachea.

Binding a wound is a quick thing. Because it needs to be.

I've, kinda done that a few times.

The Heal skill isn't giving back HP, or actually fixing anything, it's preventing you from dying which can be done really quickly. It works well enough to represent reality, but in a world of cure spells, it's quite underpowered.

[Matthew]

In three seconds? Well, I'll defer to your experience.