Enjoyability?

[Tola]

...Though my impression may be skewed by the impressions I get from the forums, I have to ask: How DOES a melee-type enjoy themself in battle and out of it when they're as 'weak' and 'underpowered' as they they apparently are?

Or perhaps a better question: How DO you enjoy the game, full stop?

[JellyPooga]

Answer to question 1) : By playing your character. A majority of melee types will tend to fairly aggressive. When you've engaged an enemy and 'your kill' is 'stolen' by that pesky mage again, get pissy about it and complain loudly about putting you off balance, etc. If you're not playing an aggressive/arrogant melee type...umm, well I got no suggestions.

Answer to question 2) : If you hadn't guessed by my answer to 1), simply play your character rather than a set of stats. If everyone plays in character, then 'power' in the "I'm a lvl 17 Wizard so your lvl 16 fighter is so completely redundant now" sense means nothing what-so-ever.

[Talyn]

Yeah, the fun isn't in being able to kick another character's ass in combat, it's about interacting with the world in a unique way. Seriously, I usually play melee types (when I can play, which is rare because I usually DM), even the much-maligned Paladin, because they are just more fun to play.

[pestilenceawaits]

Just because you are a melee character doesn't mean you can't roleplay out side of combat. That being said a good DM should always make combat fun for everyone (not every single battle but over all). if every battle starts with the wizard reducing the enemy to ashes or whatever before the fighter gets a chance to attack then the DM isn't doing something right.

[Mick_the_Rogue]

Two words

"Anti-magic field"

Then look at the wizard and note that he is a pathetic little man with few HP and a crap BAB

[Bears With Lasers]

...you... have fun by only playing games where antimagic fields are omnipresent or at least highly prevalent?

???

[Thomas]

Two words

"Anti-magic field"

Then look at the wizard and note that he is a pathetic little man with few HP and a crap BAB

Sure sounds enjoyable to the wizard's player! I bet he or she will want to stay in that game for a long time!


Edit: To answer the OP's question...

In D&D, none of us bother playing wizards to their full effect. (Too much thinking and looking up unfamiliar spells. Usually we just use blaster sorcerers.) We memorize fireball and lightning bolt, and the guy who dominated our entire first 3.0 campaign with a druid kindly refrains from playing druids all of the time, and generally makes an effort to downplay and not use all of his powers (not staying wildshaped all the time, not using combinations that will rule the battles unfairly, etc.). We never even have a cleric, really.

But we have even more fun playing something like RuneQuest, where there's no classes and everyone can learn magic, gain heroic abilities and superpowers, and so on. (In the new edition, the types of magic are actually balanced to each other. The shaman has an advantage here, the wizard has an advantage there, and the priest has an advantage elsewhere, but no one is fundamentally more powerful than the others.)

[Matthew]

By playing at low levels?

Optimisation is different from actually playing the game. Some games will be boring regardless and some will be horribly unbalanced and still tremendous fun.

[NullAshton]

I actually enjoy my warmind character a lot in the couple of battles I've tested him in. He doesn't have anything like a wizard has with save or die... but still has nice damage.

I guess the fun in a character is how much fun you want it to be.

[NEO|Phyte]

My enjoyability is a fairly equal mix of coming up with a character idea, finding a way to build the character to match the idea, then playing said character.

One such example is my WereDireWeasel Human Psychic Warrior that has the Illithid Heritage featline. Is he powerful? Probably not. Is he halfway optimized? Maybe a bit. Is he a brain-eating tentaclefaced weasel thing? HELL YES!

[pestilenceawaits]

WereDireWeasel Human Psychic Warrior that has the Illithid Heritage featline.

I may have nightmares for the rest of my life. That is the craziest thing I have ever heard of. I bow to your imagination sir.

[Bears With Lasers]

Is he a brain-eating tentaclefaced weasel thing? HELL YES!

You say that as though it were a plus, rather than one of the signs of the impending Apocalypse.

[Behold_the_Void]

Roleplay roleplay roleplay. A lot of the stuff you CAN do with Wizards or whatever also relies on highly theoretical conditions that won't always work out just the way they should, in theory. Also, just because a Wizard CAN do it doesn't mean the player is going to do it because a lot of times it doesn't make a lick of sense for them to do so in a real campaign.

Or if you're looking for more of a Hulk-Smash type game, get Tome of Battle and run a Warblade.

[Indon]

Tabletop RPG's are not about min-maxing or optimization, in my view. There are thousands of better-suited games for that purpose out there, most of which are on computer or console.

Tabletop RPG's are about crafting an interesting, interactive story, and that's what's fun about them.

[Shazzbaa]

My enjoyability is a fairly equal mix of coming up with a character idea, finding a way to build the character to match the idea, then playing said character.

One such example is my WereDireWeasel Human Psychic Warrior that has the Illithid Heritage featline. Is he powerful? Probably not. Is he halfway optimized? Maybe a bit. Is he a brain-eating tentaclefaced weasel thing? HELL YES!

This post is... pretty much exactly how I look at it myself. (And it's wonderful )

I've said before, in the D&D campaign I'm in currently, I'm pretty clearly the weakest character, but the character's fun so I'm completely having a blast. As long as I'm contributing something (which I typically am), it doesn't bother me that the others often do more. I get my moments to shine.

Besides, the cleric in our party has proven multiple times over to the other players that he's exceedingly powerful.... but as far as the other characters; my barbarian and the fighter still deride him as a weakling because he's still scrawny.

[MrNexx]

You know, I'm thinking about it, and I've finally pinned down the feel of 3.x, as sometimes advocated on these boards, for me.

Knights of the Dinner Table.

Now, I haven't read the book since college, but some of the vibe from the early issues seems to be there. The Uber Bonuses. The Magic Swag. The character optimization.

Anyone remember the issue where Bitter Stevil and Weird Pete are using rules from an obscure Czech supplement, and can bend Nitro over a barrel because Hard 8 published it (indirectly)? Or Bob blatantly whoring his way to 5th level cleric with his HackStart human cleric of Knu-Kyle-Ra by manipulating the rules... only to have it snatched away by a careful reading of the rules regarding Dave's character?

Doesn't anyone else get the feeling that their sorcerer is about to say "Fireballs coming on line" or their thief is about to "Waste 'em with their crossbow"?

I'm not quite sure what this revelation will do for my enjoyment of the game, scant as it was already.

[skrue_luse]

My enjoyability is a fairly equal mix of coming up with a character idea, finding a way to build the character to match the idea, then playing said character.

I feel the same way. For me, it's about bringing a charater to life. I do no more Min/Max or optimization than needed to get the character where they need to be to fit the image in my mind.

One such example is my WereDireWeasel Human Psychic Warrior that has the Illithid Heritage featline. Is he powerful? Probably not. Is he halfway optimized? Maybe a bit. Is he a brain-eating tentaclefaced weasel thing? HELL YES!

Wow... That is freakin' sweet!

[Roderick_BR]

I have a friend that can play a two-weapon fighting lawful evil human Fighter and have as much fun as playing a crossbow wielding chaotic good gnome wizard(ilusinist). Dude, you'd be impressed on how much trouble a single gnome can do, without using fireballs...

[Morty]

Meh. Personally I don't understand optimizing and powergaming beyond the level of being able to contirbute in fight and out of it. That's just me, but I don't really have the need to say "Lo, behold the awesome might of my Character Sheet". I'm currently playing non-optimized wizard(conjuration banned, 'cause it's dumb school) and I'm fine.

[NullAshton]

Meh. Personally I don't understand optimizing and powergaming beyond the level of being able to contirbute in fight and out of it. That's just me, but I don't really have the need to say "Lo, behold the awesome might of my Character Sheet". I'm currently playing non-optimized wizard(conjuration banned, 'cause it's dumb school) and I'm fine.

I tend to brag just a touch about my character sheets, but just because running on walls and being able to get to an opponent in the air by a series of running on walls and jumping is just cool.

I enjoy my characters because they can do cool things. If something has cool things but utterly ineffective in combat, I'd probably still enjoy playing it.

[krossbow]

manipulating everone and being a jackass; it doesn't matter that the others are more powerful than I as long as I carefully note their weaknesses, piss them off, and then hold an ace in their face when they get pissed.



Example: Character with no abilities except an insanely good will save; I then seek out an evil item with a uber curse of doom and "except the burden" Just so that I can tell the fighter that killing me is a bad idea since the thing might then possess some random guy without a +22 will save.
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Yamaha Xv1600A Specifications

[Matthew]

You know, I'm thinking about it, and I've finally pinned down the feel of 3.x, as sometimes advocated on these boards, for me.

Knights of the Dinner Table.

Now, I haven't read the book since college, but some of the vibe from the early issues seems to be there. The Uber Bonuses. The Magic Swag. The character optimization.

Anyone remember the issue where Bitter Stevil and Weird Pete are using rules from an obscure Czech supplement, and can bend Nitro over a barrel because Hard 8 published it (indirectly)? Or Bob blatantly whoring his way to 5th level cleric with his HackStart human cleric of Knu-Kyle-Ra by manipulating the rules... only to have it snatched away by a careful reading of the rules regarding Dave's character?

Doesn't anyone else get the feeling that their sorcerer is about to say "Fireballs coming on line" or their thief is about to "Waste 'em with their crossbow"?

I'm not quite sure what this revelation will do for my enjoyment of the game, scant as it was already.

Heh. Yeah, Knights does feel a lot like 3.x. However, the same could said about previous editions. It's all about attitude and group dynamic.

[mikeejimbo]

I enjoy the game by being slightly useful, and trying to stay out of the spotlight (and occasionally failing.) Our Wizard is usually in the spotlight because he's the group's face. He's the guy who talks to people, not because he has a good Charisma, but because he uses Charm Person, Ensnare the Heart and my personal favorite, Geas, as well as other, similarly manipulative spells.

When he's not there, we end up having to fight our way through stuff, and that's where I come in handy, because I'm a Cleric. I guess the only time I really stole the spotlight was when we were fighting a dragon, and she had knocked out two of our party members due to damage. I was able to get over and heal them, but they still weren't awake. The dragon was still next to me, and I had no idea what to do. So I prayed to my god, hoping to get some sort of roleplaying bonus for my act, and cast Slay Living. I was out of Harms for the day, and I didn't think an Inflict could do enough to kill her. I realized that even if I did get past her spell resistance, she'd probably make her fortitude save and only take 3d6 damage, but I was hoping for some divine intervention.

Then I rolled a 20 for the caster level check to get past her spell resistance. She made her fort save, but died anyway when I did 21 damage. (The DM said she had 7 left)

So, I don't know how the DM rigged my roll for the good roleplaying, or if there really is a Reorx. Either scare me.

[Diggorian]

My enjoyment comes from the collaborative story-telling the group participates in. The possibilites of infinite scenarios combined by the unique reactions of our PC's -- individually and as a group -- create narratives that rival, or are outright better than most things on TV or in books. I favor highly sensational descriptions of actions in game.

I hate running and playing in published adventures for this reason, they feel alien cause the writer doesnt know me nor my unique character and I feel like a chess piece.

I prefer melee types cause of the type of guy I am. I've been an athlete, taken martial arts training, won and lost physical altercations ... aggressive competition I closely relate to. Tome of Battle is new favorite of mine.

Wizards, though ultra-ubber-world sunderingly powerful seem a bit boring to me. In situation A, cast spell B, saves vary. X number of enemies vanish in an ash mushroom cloud, are electrically fried to cinders, etc. How I use my feats and manuevers in a given scenario is as interesting to me as how a caster decides to use which spells.

The fact that I dont have as many advantages as magic grants makes my victories that much sweeter to me. Let Casty McSpell destroy whole armies with a few standard actions. As long as I can get Wings of Flying to duel a pit fiend in mid-air like Gandalf did at the begininning of Two Towers, I'm pleased.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

My players roleplay more then they get into fights or roll for random stats. It's way more fun for everybody.

And for the combat-savy melee player who wants to give the mage a whacking, I let them have "honor duels" where neither combatant is allowed to use any deadly or dangerous attack, thus limiting the casters' best spells and allowing the melee'er to shine a little more. At least until the caster figures out good magic combos to boost their own melee prowess...

I really enjoy watching these duels about as much as the players like to have them, constantly. Sometimes unforeseen funny things can happen that influence the story, like when the raged barbarian//fighter who just lost his axe to a disarm decided to punch the half-dragon on a double critical for over 30 beyond the half-dragon's remaining health. He was knocked the hell out for a while, and I imposed a temporary spot penalty due to having the world's most bruised black eye.

[Ravyn]

For me, the answer comes down to "Who needs mechanics?" I'm there to chew up the scenery. To come up with inventive solutions to unlikely problems. To snark my foes into forgetting their tactics. To find a really sweet way to describe that last hit. For interaction. And for writing practice, since most of my gaming is text-based.

[krossbow]

Which means absolutely nothing.


A group of orcs are charging you!


Plyaer: "Okay, I use my quick wit to make them break formation!"

DM: Dude.... HOW?

Player: because I can?

DM: .... Okay, so I take it your delaying your turn; the orc's roll... they hit, you take 15 damage...




Unless you take feats dude, you can't just do that kind of stuff. You can bluff, but thats only before combat. It means jack de little in combat unless your feinting and such.



If you don't care about Mechanics, your playing the wrong game. Try a pure RP one, because D&D is very crunch heavy.

Not that you can't RP, just in battle theirs very little options for you.

[mikeejimbo]

Which means absolutely nothing.


A group of orcs are charging you!


Plyaer: "Okay, I use my quick wit to make them break formation!"

DM: Dude.... HOW?

Player: because I can?

DM: .... Okay, so I take it your delaying your turn; the orc's roll... they hit, you take 15 damage...




Unless you take feats dude, you can't just do that kind of stuff. You can bluff, but thats only before combat. It means jack de little in combat unless your feinting and such.



If you don't care about Mechanics, your playing the wrong game. Try a pure RP one like Mushuu or something, because D&D is very crunch heavy.

Not that you can't RP, just in battle theirs very little options for you.

Speaking is a free action, you could use your quick wit and not delay.

[krossbow]

Okay... so your saying speaking (not bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy, as those are skill checks, and not free actions) will somehow confuse the enemy? Right.




Thats pure DM fiat; pretty much along the line of him saying "You win! Don't roll, as heroes, you have now defeated the enemy!"

[mikeejimbo]

Okay... so your saying speaking (not bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy, as those are skill checks, and not free actions) will somehow confuse the enemy? Right

No, I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that you can speak all you want.