Undead Scenario

[TSGames]

Flipping through the pages of one of my favorite D&D supplements Libris Mortis, something dawned on me: it's practically impossible to play a low level undead character. Now, there are some exceptions provided for, such as taking monster levels, or one particularly strange type of undead that heals like a normal character and costs you one level and then some to become. Perhaps it is merely my taste, but the former does not sound like much fun and the latter makes character construction slightly more difficult, although it may well be worth it.

Now, needless to say I was slightly disappointed in the book and it seemed that it had ignored the possibility of playing many types of undead. Pondering this, I turned to the next splat book, The Spell Compendium. I happened to remember a certain spell called, I believe, “awaken undead.” Similar to the Druid spell, this bestows intelligence upon a mindless undead. This one spell makes it entirely possible to play an awaken zombie, skeleton, or almost any other usually mindless undead.

So I was just wondering, has anyone played as a usually mindless undead before? If not, how would you handle it as a DM?

[Wizzardman]

No, but I did come up with a character concept for one.

Awakened Skeleton/Bard/Shadowdancer, also known as Morri, the Amazing Tapdancing Skeleton.

DMwise, I'd compare them to a preexisting class with most of the same effects: the Warforged. As the warforged have level adjustment 0, but don't lose their con score and don't gain a d12 hd, I'd say that's worth a +1 level adjustment right there--only +1, though, because warforged also get potential armor upgrades, and 50% health return from healing spells, which means the cleric doesn't have to prepare spells just for them. Combined with the skeleton's natural bonuses against certain damage types, and their natural armor bonuses, I'd say they get a total of +2 to their level adjustment, and 1 racial hit die, for a total of +3 el. Sound reasonable?

Of course, the bonuses only barely fit a +2 level adjustment, so you can arguable drop it down to just a +1 la, if your DM agrees.

[Mewtarthio]

"MWAHAHAHA! I am Murray, the talking skull! I am a powerful demonic force, and the forces of darkness will applaud me when I stride through the gates of Hell carrying your head on a pike!"
"'Stride'?"
"...All right, 'roll.' 'Roll through the gates of Hell'!"

[Divides]

No, but I did come up with a character concept for one.

Awakened Skeleton/Bard/Shadowdancer, also known as Morri, the Amazing Tapdancing Skeleton.

DMwise, I'd compare them to a preexisting class with most of the same effects: the Warforged. As the warforged have level adjustment 0, but don't lose their con score and don't gain a d12 hd, I'd say that's worth a +1 level adjustment right there--only +1, though, because warforged also get potential armor upgrades, and 50% health return from healing spells, which means the cleric doesn't have to prepare spells just for them. Combined with the skeleton's natural bonuses against certain damage types, and their natural armor bonuses, I'd say they get a total of +2 to their level adjustment, and 1 racial hit die, for a total of +3 el. Sound reasonable?

Of course, the bonuses only barely fit a +2 level adjustment, so you can arguable drop it down to just a +1 la, if your DM agrees.

Huh? Why would getting a D12 hit-die be worth a level adjust?

You do realize that monster hit-dice are WORSE than class levels (with the POSSIBLE exception of dragon HD), right? That d12 hit die is a drawback, not an advantage (it's like taking a level of barbarian with no class features or attack bonus... except that you're favored save is will instead of fort).

(Mind you, I, personally, am not entirely sure that you should be keeping that hit-die anyway... the rules don't strike me as entirely clear on 1 HD non-humanoids. But the fact remains that it's no advantage :-p.)

[Rex Idiotarum]

Not a D12, all D12s

[Ramza00]

Not a D12, all D12s

A wizard with 14 con and a +4 item will have the same hps. A monk/cleric/druid with 14 con will have the same hps.

d12 hps isn't that good if you can't get con or cha to hps (Unholy Toughness)

[Divides]

Not a D12, all D12s

I don't think skeleton's actually work that way (atleast RAW). I think they only affect base HD... Ghosts, Liches, and Vampires are a special case (the conversion, I believe, is supposed to be a special effect of becoming undead when you already have class levels. A non-templated undead doesn't get to turn their class HD to d12s either, for example).

[Rex Idiotarum]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm
Plus BOVD's Corpse Creature has all d12s, and that's just a Smart Skeleton, do they have a 3.5 ed. yet?

[Divides]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType

That's reffering to racial hit dice... trust me.

Humanoid Type

A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype.

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type.
Features

A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* 8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class.
* Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
* Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies).
* Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, or by character class.

Unless you're telling me that all those PCs that are using their class based HD to determine hit-points instead of D8s are doing something wrong as well...

Honestly, I'm a little surprised you weren't able to figure that out on your own O_o...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm

This says to drop class hit-dice, and to only raise the REST to D12s... so this doesn't really seem to apply either...

Plus BOVD's Corpse Creature has all d12s, and that's just a Smart Skeleton, do they have a 3.5 ed. yet?

I believe corpse creatures (and bone creatures) retain any class levels they had as a humanoid... so they're the same case as the vampire/lich/etc.

An awakened skeleton, however, is gaining it's class levels only AFTER it's been awakened, which occurs AFTER becoming undead. A half-dragon, likewise, doesn't get to boost all it's class based HD one category, as it does it's racial HD, either.


[EDIT ADDED]

On a side note, though... if a skeleton DID actually convert all hit dice to D12s... then I'd be afraid that only a +1 or +2 LA may be a bit light... all things considered.

[Zincorium]

Check out the various undead templates that also allow class levels, such as lich or vampire. Their hit dice are always d12s. The fact that they don't add a con mod kind of reduces the benefit, but it means that wizards and sorcerors are a better choice than fighter or barbarian, you'll need fewer hitpoints as a caster than a melee character.

[Divides]

Check out the various undead templates that also allow class levels, such as lich or vampire. Their hit dice are always d12s. The fact that they don't add a con mod kind of reduces the benefit, but it means that wizards and sorcerors are a better choice than fighter or barbarian, you'll need fewer hitpoints as a caster than a melee character.

Already noted:

Ghosts, Liches, and Vampires are a special case (the conversion, I believe, is supposed to be a special effect of becoming undead when you already have class levels. A non-templated undead doesn't get to turn their class HD to d12s either, for example).

I stand by my disagreement :-p.


[EDIT ADDED]

But yes, I agree that those races preffer to be wizards/sorcerer's/etc. than fighters and barbarians. Yes increase to hitdie is better than No increase to hitdie :-p.

[Halcyon_Dax]

Sorry to pointlessly interject, but "The Undead Scenario" would be a great name for a nightclub.

[AtomicKitKat]

Undead turn all HD(including future ones) into D12s. It's sort of there to represent the insane unkillability of undeaditude. Or something like that. :P

Anyways, why'd you need to turn to the Spell Compendium? I could have sworn I saw Awaken Undead in Libris Mortis but 1 day ago.

Note that undead are incredibly sucky CRs for their HD. Your typical Undead has to have 2 or more HD per CR due to the extreme crapiness of being a D12 Wizard(Strong Will, 1/2 BAB). With none of the other class features. Practically any pure Cleric of an appropriate CR will be able to turn you. Or destroy you. Or just turn you into his personal slave.

[Divides]

Undead turn all HD(including future ones) into D12s. It's sort of there to represent the insane unkillability of undeaditude. Or something like that. :P

Dude... stop begging the question. I have yet to see it say ANYWHERE that all undead convert there future HD to d12s... just repeating the same unfounded claim doesn't really strike me as all that productive. Besides, IMHO, Savaga Species very strongly implied otherwise.

You are, of course, free to prove me wrong... but so far nothing I've seen actually says what "you people" seem to be saying :-p.

Anyways, why'd you need to turn to the Spell Compendium? I could have sworn I saw Awaken Undead in Libris Mortis but 1 day ago.

Funny thing is that I thought awaken undead was Hero's of Horror... but I think you're right, it's Libris Mortis.

But honestly, if you think you've seen a spell in Spell Compendium elsewhere... well duh. Unless I'm mistaken, the book is supposed to be nothing BUT a compilation of spells from other books... I believe everything in it can be found elsewhere :-p.

Note that undead are incredibly sucky CRs for their HD. Your typical Undead has to have 2 or more HD per CR due to the extreme crapiness of being a D12 Wizard(Strong Will, 1/2 BAB). With none of the other class features. Practically any pure Cleric of an appropriate CR will be able to turn you. Or destroy you. Or just turn you into his personal slave.

*Agreed.*

Miniature Handbook's Aspect of Vecna... the best way to make a cleric laugh :-p.

[Were-Sandwich]

The only good reason to turn yourself into an undead is so you can Spell-Stitch yourself, granting you some cool spell-like abilities (which, as Sp abilities, don't require components. Animate Dead anyone?)

[Captain van der Decken]

Awesome idea, but what about the whole immortality thing? Isn't that the point of lichdom?

[Were-Sandwich]

oh, thats good to.

[AtomicKitKat]

I don't really know what to say about the sample Emancipated Spawn. Since most people on the web don't seem to like Savage Species except when it suits them...

[Zincorium]

I stand by my disagreement :-p.

Wait, wait, so when every single undead with class levels has them with d12s, in fact every undead ever listed under 3.x rules has all d12 hit dice with no exception, you still disagree that undead get d12s? Where in Boccob's name are you getting anything to the contrary?

[AtomicKitKat]

Since we're going to quote Savage Species:

Mummified, Spectral, Umbral, Wight and Wraith Creature templates all say:

Hit Dice: All hitdice become d12

I prefer to think of the Emancipated Spawn as an aberration(the concept, not the race)

[TSGames]

The only good reason to turn yourself into an undead is so you can Spell-Stitch yourself, granting you some cool spell-like abilities (which, as Sp abilities, don't require components. Animate Dead anyone?)

Perhaps I am mistaken...
I thought that spell like abilities that normally require a material component instead require the expenditure or XP. I believe it's 5 times the material component value in XP.


On another note: I don't think an awakened zombie or skeleton would need a LA because d12 HD with no Con is really not that great(average 6.5 per level?) in addition, they are screwed when it comes to things that require a fortitude save for objects(disintegrate?), and there’s little point to mentioning how pwned they are if a cleric finds them…

[Feralgeist]

I was gonna play as an awakened skeleton after my character got killed in my campaign, but then i read up on it.

Skeletons lose all feats, skills, and other abilities they had in life that aren't racial. Except for proficiencies, they keep those. when you awaken them, they just get more int and become sentient, and get a feat i think.
also, their intelligence might be back to normal, but they'll still have 1 charisma.

If you have Iron kingdoms book, use Thralls from that, they're much better. IF not, then just use a different kind of undead. unless you're pure fighter class, then the CHA might not matter.

[Divides]

Wait, wait, so when every single undead with class levels has them with d12s, in fact every undead ever listed under 3.x rules has all d12 hit dice with no exception, you still disagree that undead get d12s? Where in Boccob's name are you getting anything to the contrary?

I believe this question has already been answered.

Since we're going to quote Savage Species:

Mummified, Spectral, Umbral, Wight and Wraith Creature templates all say:

And what do they all do? That's right... keep their class levels from BEFORE becoming undead...

This argument is going nowhere, fast :-p.

I prefer to think of the Emancipated Spawn as an aberration(the concept, not the race)

I preffer to think of it as common sense.

Honestly, IMHO, the change it painfully arbitrary for vampires, liches, and ghosts as well. All it does is screw up the balance between barbarians and fighters VS wizards/sorcerer's/rogues. If they wanted to make up for no bonus HP, they should have simply factored that in... or maybe given toughness as a bonus feat to the more resilient undead (like vampires), if they really wanted to.

On another note: I don't think an awakened zombie or skeleton would need a LA because d12 HD with no Con is really not that great(average 6.5 per level?) in addition, they are screwed when it comes to things that require a fortitude save for objects(disintegrate?), and there’s little point to mentioning how pwned they are if a cleric finds them…

The problem with this logic is that the loss of the con score is actually an ADVANTAGE in non-HP related ways. Yes, you can't use con as one of your better scores, which almost every class will... but you have to keep in mind that the con score is dumped AFTER stat assignment.

What this means is (just as an example), the cleric who would (theoretically) otherwise have stats: Str 13, con 14, Dex 8, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 12 will now have stats: Str 14, con -, Dex 10, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 13... which for stat mod purposes is 13/10/10/12/15/13. It's like an inherent +2 total bonus to your stats, in exchange for losing some flexibility.

Meanwhile, his HD just went from d8 to d12... meaning he's STILL getting +2 HP/level, plus an extra +2 HP on the side.

Now, it does hurt that you can't use con boosting items at higher levels... but this is also somewhat mitigated by the fact that you're immune to con damage/drain (which can often prove to be quite painful).

So sorry, but I still disagree :-p. IMHO, skeleton's should have atleast a +2 LA, even before factoring in their DR and claw attacks.

Now, the cleric PWNage is a bit of a drawback, but IMHO it's also a special case. There are allot of other things you're now immune to, as well.

(That, and from what I can tell, I think allot of level adjust out there is designed as "anit-twink insurance." I need not repeat the above mentioned lack of symetry for a automatic d12 HD for rogues VS an automatic d12 HD for fighters/barbarians.)

I was gonna play as an awakened skeleton after my character got killed in my campaign, but then i read up on it.

Skeletons lose all feats, skills, and other abilities they had in life that aren't racial. Except for proficiencies, they keep those. when you awaken them, they just get more int and become sentient, and get a feat i think.
also, their intelligence might be back to normal, but they'll still have 1 charisma.

The loss of feats and skill points is a result of having no int score. I'm pretty sure that gets reversed when you awaken them.

Now, the fact that they have no class skills for that first HD (unless I'm mistaken)... that's another story, but neh.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

No, but I did come up with a character concept for one.

Awakened Skeleton/Bard/Shadowdancer, also known as Morri, the Amazing Tapdancing Skeleton.

The mental image of that is quite interesting. Cudos to you Wizz, that just made my day. I'm just imagining a skeleton tapdancing with a hat and cane to Hello My baby!

[Khantalas]

Oh! I got proof that undead convert all HD, and not just templates.

The atropal scion cleric in the adventure in Libris Mortis has only d12s, no d8s. And Atropal Scion is not a template.

So, I was playing it right. Whew.

[TSGames]

The loss of feats and skill points is a result of having no int score. I'm pretty sure that gets reversed when you awaken them.

Now, the fact that they have no class skills for that first HD (unless I'm mistaken)... that's another story, but neh.

Very mistaken.. The spell specifically states that they regain their proficiencies, and extraordinary racial abilities they had in life. They also gain +2 TR and a +2 bonus against the spell control undead and 1d6+4 Int(assuming human). That's all the spell does. No restoration of feats at all.

Now, the skeleton template specifically mentions that they loose all feats they had and gain improved initiative. By the RAW you are very incorrect.

Also:

The problem with this logic is that the loss of the con score is actually an ADVANTAGE in non-HP related ways. Yes, you can't use con as one of your better scores, which almost every class will... but you have to keep in mind that the con score is dumped AFTER stat assignment.

What this means is (just as an example), the cleric who would (theoretically) otherwise have stats: Str 13, con 14, Dex 8, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 12 will now have stats: Str 14, con -, Dex 10, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 13... which for stat mod purposes is 13/10/10/12/15/13. It's like an inherent +2 total bonus to your stats, in exchange for losing some flexibility.

You didn't do your homework. Upon aquiring the Skeleton template the MM(page 226) says, "Abilities: A skeleton's dexterity increases by +2, it has no constitution or intelligence score, it's wisdom changes to 10, and charisma changes to 1."

You know what just happened to your cleric? He sucks! A bard could own him 8 ways to Sunday, even a ninja could beat him like a redheaded stepchild. But please, back to your argument, I'll overlook the provincial example that you provided.

"loosing some flexibility"????!!!! Try loosing all flexibility. AT this point, the only possible decent stats are STR and DEX. It's not possible to be any type of spell caster with an INT and WIS of 10 and a CHA of 1. Now what's that leave? O, yes! a melee build...with no constitution modifier..that gets owned by clerics...has average HP of 6.5/level. But of course they deserve a level adjustment...

Meanwhile, his HD just went from d8 to d12... meaning he's STILL getting +2 HP/level, plus an extra +2 HP on the side.

Looking at the fact that it doesn't matter if they're a cleric, let's compare to a melee build.
Fighter with CON of 14 AVERAGE HP is 7.5
Barbarian with CON of 12 AVERAGE HP of 7.5
Rogue with a CON of 14 AVERAGE HP of 5.5
So yea...the skeleton's gonna last real long in melee, he's got less HP than a Fighter with a 14 con, and only slightly more than a Rogue(Y'know that class that's notorious for being awesome in melee). In addition they have one feat at first level(Imp. initiative) and the player can't even pick it.

Now, it does hurt that you can't use con boosting items at higher levels... but this is also somewhat mitigated by the fact that you're immune to con damage/drain (which can often prove to be quite painful).

Yes it does hurt... a lot. No argument.

So sorry, but I still disagree :-p. IMHO, skeleton's should have atleast a +2 LA, even before factoring in their DR and claw attacks.

Really? Two 1d4 claw attacks and DR 5/Bludgeoning. OMG Game Breaking it has two benefits that completely suck after level 3 that OWNZZORZZSS!!!! 2d4 claw attacks FTW!!!! And that 5 less damage I take makes a big difference when I die at 0 HP I am so overpowered!

Now, the cleric PWNage is a bit of a drawback, but IMHO it's also a special case. There are allot of other things you're now immune to, as well.

Maybe we have different definitions... Dying at 0 HP instead of -10, that's a bit of a drawback, getting mercilessly slaughtered by any and every cleric you meet is a huge and most likely fatal drawback.

“But they have uhh…. +2 turn resistance…(me so smart!)”

Congratualtions! Now they most likely won’t be destroyed by a cleric of the same level, YAY! Now the cleric only gets a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls against them… and o, yeah they have to run like little girls. Considering that they have to be a melee build that’s really going to help the party isn’t it? Their sub-par fighter, barb, or whatever else running away from the front line, leaving the rest of the party up a creek…and that’s if they aren’t destroyed by the turning.
Don’t even get me started on rebuking.


So what problem with my logic?

[Wizzardman]

I don't think skeleton's actually work that way (atleast RAW). I think they only affect base HD... Ghosts, Liches, and Vampires are a special case (the conversion, I believe, is supposed to be a special effect of becoming undead when you already have class levels. A non-templated undead doesn't get to turn their class HD to d12s either, for example).

You better hope it means all HD are d12s, else you're going to be royally screwed, because you don't get a con score. So let's go with the all-hd-are-d12s, like vampires get and Libris Mortis uses for ghouls, wights, and etc.

The mental image of that is quite interesting. Cudos to you Wizz, that just made my day. I'm just imagining a skeleton tapdancing with a hat and cane to Hello My baby!

Ah, Michigan J Frog. My inspiration for this horrid monstrosity of a skeleton.

Most of the +1 LA doesn't come from d12 hd, though (as many people mentioned, d12 isn't that good if you have no con score). Most of it comes from the fact that you are IMMUNE TO EVERYTHING: mind-affecting spells (unless Awaken Undead changes that), nonlethal dmg, critical hits, poisons, diseases, ability damage or drain, and a horde of other dangerous attacks. They also get a +2 natural armor, which fits well with a +1 LA. The only reason I gave them +2 is because of their DR 5/bludgeoning and Cold Immunity, and that their ability score adjustment (Dex +2) has no penalty.

By itself, I'd say being an awakened undead has LA +1, and should be adjusted depending on the type of undead you are.

Really? Two 1d4 claw attacks and DR 5/Bludgeoning. OMG Game Breaking it has two benefits that completely suck after level 3 that OWNZZORZZSS!!!! 2d4 claw attacks FTW!!!! And that 5 less damage I take makes a big difference when I die at 0 HP I am so overpowered!

That's a problem that occurs very often to creatures that have LA, dude. You think Drow have it easy with their +2 LA and tiny abilities that are only useful in their first six levels? Woo, darkness! How useful!

Having natural attacks can be pretty helpful--especially in low level games. As can DR 5/bludgeoning. And their loss of versatility isn't that much of a big deal--powergamers will still abuse the race for the various Undead-upping feats in the Libris Mortis, as well as the chance to go for monstrous feats, whereas people who are more roleplay-oriented will probably houserule Awaken Undead so that it can actually be useful. Or just won't play Skeletons.

All in all, I think this race is on equal footing with most of the races in the level adjustment 1 or 2 area. If you don't think its powerful enough, reduce the LA to +1, like I suggested. If you think that isn't enough, make it +0. Whatever. I'm only giving a suggestion based on my interpretation of the level adjustment rules.

[TSGames]

Necropolitan:
Good
+Darkvision 60ft
+d12 HD
+Good Will Save
+Immunity to mind affecting effects
+Immunity to poison
+No sleeping, ever
+Immunity to paralysis
+Immunity to Stunning
+Immunity to obvious stuff(disease, death effects)
+Immunity to Critical Hits, Subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain)
+2 TR
+2 On saves against Control Undead
+Heal Ability Damage and HP at the same rate as living creatures

Bad
-Costs XP as if resurection was cast+1,000XP
-Destroyed at 0 HP
-No Con(which means no adding to fort save or HP)
-1/2 HD BAB
-Weak Fort and Reflex Saves
-Positive energy injures them
-Clerics pwn them royally

Awakened Human Skeleton
Good

+Darkvision 60 ft
+Immunity to Cold
+DR 5/bludgeoning
+2 AC bonus
+2 1d4 claw attacks
+d12 HD
+Good Will Save
+Immunity to mind affecting effects
+Immunity to poison
+No sleeping, ever
+Immunity to paralysis
+Immunity to Stunning
+Immunity to obvious stuff(disease, death effects)
+Immunity to Critical Hits, Subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain).
+2 TR
+2 On saves against Control Undead
+2 Dex
+Heal HP at same rate as living creatures
+Bouns Feat:Imp Init.

Bad
-Destroyed at 0 HP
-No Con(which means no adding to fort save or HP)
-1/2 HD BAB
-Weak Fort and Reflex Saves
-Cha of 1(-5 penalty)
-Int max of 10
-Wis of 10
-Positive energy injures them
-Clerics pwn them royally
-No choice of feat or party role
-Loose all feats they had in life
-Ineffective at party role

Now let's cross out the stuff they have in common:
Necropolitan:
Good
+Darkvision 60ft
+d12 HD
+Good Will Save
+Immunity to mind affecting effects
+Immunity to poison
+No sleeping, ever
+Immunity to paralysis
+Immunity to Stunning
+Immunity to obvious stuff(disease, death effects)
+Immunity to Critical Hits, Subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain)
+2 TR
+2 On saves against Control Undead
+Heal Ability Damage and HP at the same rate as living creatures

Bad
-Costs XP as if resurection was cast+1,000XP
-Destroyed at 0 HP
-No Con(which means no adding to fort save or HP)
-1/2 HD BAB
-Weak Fort and Reflex Saves
-Positive energy injures them
-Clerics pwn them royally

Awakened Human Skeleton
Good

+Darkvision 60 ft
+Immunity to Cold
+DR 5/bludgeoning
+2 AC bonus
+2 1d4 claw attacks
+d12 HD
+Good Will Save
+Immunity to mind affecting effects
+Immunity to poison
+No sleeping, ever
+Immunity to paralysis
+Immunity to Stunning
+Immunity to obvious stuff(disease, death effects)
+Immunity to Critical Hits, Subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain).
+2 TR
+2 On saves against Control Undead
+2 Dex
+Heal HP at same rate as living creatures
+Bouns Feat:Imp Init.

Bad
-Destroyed at 0 HP
-No Con(which means no adding to fort save or HP)
-1/2 HD BAB
-Weak Fort and Reflex Saves
-Cha of 1(-5 penalty)
-Int max of 10
-Wis of 10
-Positive energy injures them
-Clerics pwn them royally
-No choice of feat or party role
-Loose all feats they had in life
-Ineffective at party role

In case you didn't want to pay attention that leaves the Necropolitan with
Good
Heals Abilty damage like living Creature

Bad
-Costs XP as if resurection was cast+1,000XP

And the Awakened Human Skeleton
Good
+2 Dex
+Bouns Feat:Imp Init.
+Immunity to Cold
+DR 5/bludgeoning
+2 AC bonus
+2 1d4 claw attacks

Bad
-Cha of 1(-5 penalty)
-Int max of 10
-Wis of 10
-Ineffective at party role
-No choice of feat or party role
-Loose all feats they had in life

Sorry, but I don't think they're worth it. Cold immunity is nice, but it's barely any advantage unless you play in an arctic setting. I could understand an argument for a +1 LA, but nothing more. The fact is that Not getting to choose your level 1 feat, gaining improved Init. as a melee combatant, average 6.5 as a melee combatant(or maybe you use a bow, it only takes so many feats to be somewhat effective you couldn't possibly be hurt by the loss of one), compounded by the fact that you will have very few skills regardless of what class you enter and will have low modifiers in every non STR or DEX based skill, the fact that your BAB sucks, your saves, except will, suck, you heal HP slower than any living person(without a Con penalty), you die at 0 HP(which makes low le vel adventuring very hazardous), and the fact that you are forced into a party role that you are guaranteed to be second best at (if you're optimized), means that it's not worth a +1 LA or any LA.

I'd like to see people try to optimize and cheese it if they can, it will always be less effective than your generic non-optimized fighter. Also, the feats in Libris Mortis don't help a Skeleton all that much, as he posses no attacks that cause ability damage, incorporeal subtype, paralysis ability, or supernatural energy drain.

What's he left with from Libris Mortis? Daunting Presence feat Chain(DC's are CHA based), Positive Energy resistance(which just helps him to compensate for sucking against clerics, Improved Turn Resistance(again, less suckage against clerics), Improved Toughness(probably needs it badly), and Unquenchable Flame of life(which makes no sense for an undead to have and isn't that useful).

GASP!!! Not even Libris Mortis can provide him with any feats to compensate for his suckage. LA +x, I think not.

[Divides]

Oh! I got proof that undead convert all HD, and not just templates.

The atropal scion cleric in the adventure in Libris Mortis has only d12s, no d8s. And Atropal Scion is not a template.

So, I was playing it right. Whew.

*Ahem,*

"I stand corrected."

I suppose this is what I get for walking in on a discussion about undead without having actually read LM front to back :-p.

Upon aquiring the Skeleton template the MM(page 226) says, "Abilities: A skeleton's dexterity increases by +2, it has no constitution or intelligence score, it's wisdom changes to 10, and charisma changes to 1."

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...
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Damn you!

Yeah yeah, I forgot how aquired templates work :-p.

Fine, skeleton's suck :-p.

[Mewtarthio]

Hang on, I think you may be able to do a few things about those ability scores...

Ah, yes, the Phrenic template boosts all mental ability scores (Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4). Of course, that alone is a +2 LA, and I'm not sure if there's any way to get the Phrenic and the Skeleton templates to stack. Legally, nothing prevents it, but how do you make a Phrenic skeleton? A Phrenic creature that's Animated would probably lose its Phrenic powers, and skeletons have no reproductive organs, so there's no way for one of their skeleton children to manifest the Phrenic template, either.

There's also something along the lines of "Hunting" undead that have 13 Wis, but I think that only works for Zombies.