Balance the Monk

[PMDM]

Out of the core classes, there are 4 classes that give you a multitude of class abilities from level 1-20, and consequently, seem to be limiting in terms of roleplaying values. Barbarian, Druid, Monk, and Paladin.

The Barbarian is allright, because the alternitive, the Fighter, allows a lot of feats, while the Barbarian does a really good job of being the opposite of the fighter, using class abilities. His rage ability, and damage reduction is more than enough to make up for the 11 bonus feats that he's missing. The one silly thing I can see in a barbarian is illiteracy, because I feel that should be more of a Role-Playing choice, but that doesn't bother many people.

Likewise, the Druid is a nice alternative to the cleric. The Druid gets a lot of abilities about polymorphing, called will shape. But if you use the alternative system presented on this site, it's never problem. The Druid can still be considered overpowered, but the problem is with divine spell-casters, and not with the Druid, so it's allright.

The Paladin at first glance, seems like it's a prestige class, because the most important abilities deal with smiting evil, and being good in general. But the paladin really allows someone who wants to be a Fighter-Cleric hybrid much easier. As an added bonus, you get most of it's abilities early, and you can play with an easy varient to make Paladins of any of the "Exterme" alignments, such as a chaotically evil paladin. The paladin makes it easy for someone to roleplay a strongly based alignment.

The Monk, however, is very different from every core character. It has all good saves, something that no other core class can attest to. Apparently, the average Base Attack Bonus is to make up for this, but as the Monk levels up, the unarmed damage increases too. Instead of wearing armor, the monk gains an Armor class bonus, and even gets a huge speed boost when he dosn't fight with a weapon, but instead with his formidable fists. So, besides never having to spend well gained gp on armor, or a weapon, the monk's class abilties can be rediculously useful, especially in higher levels. Slow fall, while still only useful in certain situations, breaks the allready broken falling damage rules. Using dimension door at level 12 can be game breaking. My personal favorites are the ones that can break a campaign, such as timeless body. This wouldn't be too much of a problem, except for the fact that there are loopholes for the Monk's "unarmed attack" bonus, such as the quarterstaff. So a monk can have a magic quarterstaff, and a whole lot of little magic items, like his companions. But he also has a whole lot of bonuses included, making him about as strong as another PC*1.75.

Obviously, I can't cut out the monk out of core, he's too intigrated with the feel of the game. What variations have been made, to make the monk fit into the game a bit more???

[I_Got_This_Name]

I can agree that getting Dimension Door at level 12 is game-breaking. The Sorcerer can get it four levels earlier, and can use it so much more often.

The monk needs to spend just as much on Bracers of Armor as the other PCs do, and three times as much on an Amulet of Mighty Fists as the others do on their weapons, or not be able to take advantage of their unarmed damage.

Slow Fall doesn't come up that much, and mages are already immune to falling damage when they want to be from 1st level, and anyone willing to drop 2,200 GP on a Ring of Feather Falling gets the same benefit. That means that Slow Fall is worth less than a 2,200 GP item.

Timeless Body doesn't do anything in most games, and when it does, the casters are getting a lot more from their aging (casting stat > monk's wisdom), and can, likewise, ignore the physical penalties (Polymorph, or simply sit in the back rank behind magical defenses).

[shaka gl]

I think if you give them a maximun unarmed damage of 1d10, lower a bit the movement rate and take away that silly Dimension Door (which makes no sense at all); they re fine...

[Ramza00]

*bites tongue*

[Marius]

If anything they should get MORE (and probably different) abilities. I would give them maneuvers from ToB

[shaka gl]

I wont argue that they need more stuff, but the ones i said above are broken. Full BAB is what they need...

[Druid]

Monks suck. The last thing they need is to be powered down. Who cares if they get lots of abilities, hardly any of them actually help the monk take down enemies and most of the ones that do suck. Dimension door once a day at twelfth level? No where near broken. Unarmed damage? Monks still end up miles behind fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, rogues, and most everyone else in the entire game in the damage department. The only class I can see the monk out damaging is the bard, and the bard has so many things he should be doing before frontline combat it doesn't even matter. Timeless body? How is this game breaking?

[Druid]

I wont argue that they need more stuff, but the ones i said above are broken. Full BAB is what they need...

How are they broken? It isn't enough to just say that they are, proove it.

[Renegade Paladin]

...

Monks are nice, but next to most of the other classes they're downright weak in most combats. About the only time I can think of that you could call the monk "overpowered" is in scenarios where the DM has the party captured and their weapons taken away. Sure, they can make saves all day long, but survivability and the ability to escape doesn't translate into power by itself.

[The_Snark]

Monks really aren't overpowered. Let's compare a level 20 monk with a level 20 fighter wielding the standard greatsword (this will be a stereotypical, full-plate greatsword fighter). Assume both put an 18 in Strength and have belts of giant strength +6. +5 greatsword, +5 amulet of mighty fists, just to balance it out. The monk does, what, 2d10 damage?

So, the monk's average damage is going to be 2d10+12, for an average of 23 damage. The fighter's average damage is 2d6+15, for an average of 22 damage. It does look at first like the monk has the advantage, particularly since they get flurry of blows, but keep in mind:
- Due to the base attack problem, the monk will be hitting 25% less than the fighter, on average.
- Monks very rarely have an 18 to put in Strength, since they have to worry about Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution as well. A fighter only has to worry about Constitution and having decent Dexterity, plus enough of other stats to qualify for any feats they might take.
- This isn't factoring in the fighter's large numbers of feats. Weapon Specialization alone is enough to tip the balance on the average damage. Power Attack tips it even further, and things like Weapon Focus help accuracy. Monks can benefit from a few of these, but just not very many.
- Monks have to spend more on enhancing armor and unarmed strikes than fighters do on their armor and weapons, not less. Bracers of armor +8 cost 64,000 and give +8 to AC, as compared to 26,500 for +5 full plate, which provides +13 AC. Similarly, an amulet of mighty fists +5 costs three times what a +5 weapon does.
- A monk can wield a quarterstaff, yeah, but they don't get to use their unarmed base damage with it, you know. They're back to doing 1d6 damage each strike.

The monk's value lies more in special abilities, true. Three good saves, spell resistance, immunity to poison and disease- all useful, but more defensive in nature. Slow fall isn't very useful, since a character with a good Reflex save won't be doing a whole lot of falling anyway. Dimension door 1/day is... okay, but hardly game-breaking. Empty body is nice, but at 19th level the spellcasters have been doing this for half the game, and can provide it to the whole party by now. The ability to heal is sorta useful, but paladins get more, and earlier, too. Timeless body is useless; it's more a flavor ability than anything else. Unless your DM is willing to let your character (but not anyone else's!) sit around for fifty years, it will never come into play.

[Zincorium]

I think the basic problem with the monk is that they've got a bit of confusion regarding what role the should be taking.

Are they mystics who can bend the laws of the universe using only their inner strength and willpower? Then they should use some variant of psionics.

Are they true masters of unarmed combat (which is something that they're easily beaten in, honestly)? Then they should have, apart from full BAB, significant advantages in things like tripping and disarming over and beyond what the fighter can do. The fighter is able to specialize in so many areas, that it's rather unfair to have them be better at what a monk is supposed to do than the monk is.

[Umbral_Arcanist]

Monks are good for (IMO) a few things

`1: Stealthy scouts/skirmishers
2: Drunken masters
3: Multiclassing with paladin or blackguard to make mage killers (for the saves)
4: use with the ascetic X feats
5:a character concept
6: a shuriken thowing master thrower (who needs rogue levels for SA as well)

and those are pretty much the only times i'd use it, and in most of these cases it'd be a dip with some PrCs thrown in: thief acrobat for 2, occult slayer for 3, eldritch fist, or master thrower for 6 [obviously] for example

[Orzel]

...

About the only time I can think of that you could call the monk "overpowered" is in scenarios where the DM has the party captured and their weapons taken away.

or good o' "attacked in your sleep".

Monks are for the most part rogues with a higher base damage, a lower max damage, higher survival, and no trap knowledge. They should usually be treated as such.

[Bosh]

Monks overpowered? You are a funny funny man

You do realize that a monk doesn't get to use his unarmed damage when using monk weapons, right?

Monks are consistently below-par power-wise unless the players wealth is WAY WAY below suggested wealth levels or you have the players consistently get kidnapped and loose their stuff. Monks have some fun ability but, except for maybe bards, they're probably the single worst class at taking down enemies and most of their abilities don't really make them more powerful they just compensate them for loosing out on lots of cool magic armor and weapons.

[Flawless]

Monks can deal quite a lot of damage. At 6th level, take improved natural attack, and you deal damage as if one size-category larger. Spend 13.000gp on a monk's belt and take the supirior anarmed attack feat at 9th level and you deal 4d8 + str points of damage by 11th level and have three attacks at your highest attack bonus. Then take a level cleric with acces to the magic domain and buy a wand of enlarge person. Now it's 6d8 + str. A wand of divine power might be a good idea as well.

[Bosh]

Monks can deal quite a lot of damage. At 6th level, take improved natural attack, and you deal damage as if one size-category larger. Spend 13.000gp on a monk's belt and take the supirior anarmed attack feat at 9th level and you deal 4d8 + str points of damage by 11th level and have three attacks at your highest attack bonus. Then take a level cleric with acces to the magic domain and buy a wand of enlarge person. Now it's 6d8 + str. A wand of divine power might be a good idea as well.

Well obviously if you min-max the hell out of ANYTHING and have EXACTLY the right equipment anything can be powerful. For example fighters are a sad sad class but a fighter with nothing but a non-magical club wielded two-handed, shock trooper and leap attack can top the above example for damage output with ease.

At 6th level: 1d6+Str 1.5+18 AND that has a much better chance of actually hitting anything than the monk does.

1d6+Str 1.5+33 at level 11.

Also I believe that applying Improved Natural Attack to monks is a questionably legal.

[Bears With Lasers]

Applying INA to monks is unquestionably legal. It's in the FAQ, and besides, monks' unarmed strikes count as both natural and manufactured weapons. You can apply INA.

[Bosh]

Applying INA to monks is unquestionably legal. It's in the FAQ, and besides, monks' unarmed strikes count as both natural and manufactured weapons. You can apply INA.

I stand corrected. Its still not enough to keep a monk from being firmly below-par power-wise in most campaigns.

[Ramza00]

Monks can deal quite a lot of damage. At 6th level, take improved natural attack, and you deal damage as if one size-category larger. Spend 13.000gp on a monk's belt and take the supirior anarmed attack feat at 9th level and you deal 4d8 + str points of damage by 11th level and have three attacks at your highest attack bonus. Then take a level cleric with acces to the magic domain and buy a wand of enlarge person. Now it's 6d8 + str. A wand of divine power might be a good idea as well.

A Monk's belt costs 13,000 gp the first time you can buy such an item is lvl 11 (66,000 gp) due to the restriction of WBL saying your most expensive item shouldn't cost more than 1/4 your WBL. If you craft it yourself then it will only cost you 6,500 gp which means you can incur this item at lvl 8. Problem is you need to be able to cast Righteous Might a 5th lvl cleric spell or Transformation a 6th lvl wizard spell, something your Cleric or Wizard won't be able to cast themselves. Now they can always buy a scroll of righteous might or transformation but that will put another 1,125 gp (Righteous Might) or 1,950 gp (Transformation) to the cost of the monk's belt. This will put your item pass the wbl guidelines for lvl 8. Thus you might as well wait for lvl 9 when the cleric can provide the righteous might spell for free.

Thus in reality the soonest you can get a monk's belt is lvl 9 if you craft it, lvl 11 if you buy it, or a little sooner if you have an artificer in your party and he takes the appropriate cost reduction feats. You can get it sooner but you have to "build your character" around it, and only the artificer really gains no long term lost for building a crafter.

Ironically lvl 11 is the level where the big "damage leaps" of a monk ends, his unarmed damage no longer progresses anymore (11+5+4=20), his flurry is perfected, damage wise he gets no more benefits from his class. Only things that boost his damage now are strength boosters, bab increases, and caster level increases from items/spells all things he gets from "outside sources".

[Shisumo]

Here's my (relatively modest) suggestion for balancing the monk class. Add/modify the following class abilities:

4th level: Ki Strike (magic, +1)
7th level: Ki Strike (+2)
10th level: Ki Strike (lawful, +3)
13th level: Flurry of blows +1, Ki Strike (+4)
16th level: Ki Strike (adamatine, +5)
17th level: Flurry of blows +2

Flurry of Blows: When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. At 13th level, the monk gains a +1 bonus to all attacks made as a part of a flurry of blows. At 17th level, the bonus increases to +2. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

Ki Strike: At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as +1 magic weapons, granting a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage, as well as overcoming the damage reduction of certain creatures. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 7th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as +2 weapons. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are +3 weapons, and gain the lawful property as well. At 13th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as +4 weapons. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as +5 weapons, as well as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

New Feats:
IMPROVED KI STRIKE
Prerequisite: Ki Strike class ability
Benefit: The enhancement bonus of your ki strike is increased by 1.
Special: This feat may be taken up to 3 times. Its effects stack. The maximum enhancement bonus you can have from your ki strike ability is still +5, however.

SHAPED KI STRIKE
Prerequisite: Ki Strike +2
Benefit: Choose any weapon special ability with a bonus cost less than the enhancement of your ki strike. You convert the appropriate amount of ki strike enhancement into the weapon special ability, which then applies to your unarmed strikes. For example: Ember has Ki Strike +4. She selects Shaped Ki Strike, and chooses the flaming burst special ability, which has a +2 bonus cost. Her Ki Strike ability is reduced to +2, but she gains the flaming burst ability on her unarmed strikes as well.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, the character must choose a new special ability.

[Thomas]

What, you're balancing it down ? The poor guys are already next to useless.

[Starbuck_II]

Here's my (relatively modest) suggestion for balancing the monk class. Add/modify the following class abilities:

4th level: Ki Strike (magic, +1)
7th level: Ki Strike (+2)
10th level: Ki Strike (lawful, +3)
13th level: Flurry of blows +1, Ki Strike (+4)
16th level: Ki Strike (adamatine, +5)
17th level: Flurry of blows +2

Flurry of Blows: When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. At 13th level, the monk gains a +1 bonus to all attacks made as a part of a flurry of blows. At 17th level, the bonus increases to +2. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

Ki Strike: At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as +1 magic weapons, granting a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage, as well as overcoming the damage reduction of certain creatures. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 7th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as +2 weapons. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are +3 weapons, and gain the lawful property as well. At 13th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as +4 weapons. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as +5 weapons, as well as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

New Feats:
IMPROVED KI STRIKE
Prerequisite: Ki Strike class ability
Benefit: The enhancement bonus of your ki strike is increased by 1.
Special: This feat may be taken up to 3 times. Its effects stack. The maximum enhancement bonus you can have from your ki strike ability is still +5, however.

SHAPED KI STRIKE
Prerequisite: Ki Strike +2
Benefit: Choose any weapon special ability with a bonus cost less than the enhancement of your ki strike. You convert the appropriate amount of ki strike enhancement into the weapon special ability, which then applies to your unarmed strikes. For example: Ember has Ki Strike +4. She selects Shaped Ki Strike, and chooses the flaming burst special ability, which has a +2 bonus cost. Her Ki Strike ability is reduced to +2, but she gains the flaming burst ability on her unarmed strikes as well.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, the character must choose a new special ability.

I like the Monk changes dude.

Improved Ki Strike is fior multi classed ones?
Question if you use Shaped Ki Strike lowering Ki Strike bonus does Improved raise it again?

[shaka gl]

I dont think (now) that the monk its overpowered (except with the movement rate, which i consider insane). What i mean, is that the class makes absolutely no sense. You read the fluff and the crunch, and its just like they rented a bad chinese movie and made it a class.

[Shisumo]

I like the Monk changes dude.

Improved Ki Strike is fior multi classed ones?
Question if you use Shaped Ki Strike lowering Ki Strike bonus does Improved raise it again?

Multiclassed, but also pure who want to get to a +10 (equivalent) weapon eventually.

And yes, that was the intent.

[Shazzbaa]

This question is only slightly related, but there are already two Monk threads bouncing around (and this one seemed less scary) and it's just a quick question...

How useful is the Quivering Palm ability?

Is it so useful that you'd be a fool not to use it?

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, it's something to hold over an opponent's head. "Do what I say or I'll will you to die!" If the opponent knows that you can, in fact, do so, he's very likely to be more... compliant.

[Druid]

I dont think (now) that the monk its overpowered (except with the movement rate, which i consider insane). What i mean, is that the class makes absolutely no sense. You read the fluff and the crunch, and its just like they rented a bad chinese movie and made it a class.

Ah, well in that case I agree with you. My theory is that after creating all the other classes Skip, Monty and Jon had a bunch of left over ideas for abilities and combined them all into one class.

[Draz74]

This question is only slightly related, but there are already two Monk threads bouncing around (and this one seemed less scary) and it's just a quick question...

How useful is the Quivering Palm ability?

Is it so useful that you'd be a fool not to use it?

Well, if you're playing a typical Monk, you need all the help you can get, so use it when you can. But don't expect it to work very often.

Why? First, the save DC isn't that high. By level 15, when you get Quivering Palm and it has a DC of 17+Wis, the Wizard is casting save-or-die 8th-level spells with a DC of 18+Int. And he can probably afford a higher Intelligence than you can afford a high Wisdom. And he may have Spell Focus feats or whatnot to boost him. So Quivering Palm isn't a pathetically easy save, like monster poisons or something, but it's not a super-hard save.

Second, once per week. Ow. This is also why it's not worth it to use Ability Focus, etc., to match the Wizard's Spell Focus.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Yeah, that's why, despite my love for monks, they never use that ability. They might as well not have it.

[Bears With Lasers]

After we're done "balancing" monks, we can tone down the Warlock, the Fighter, and the Bard, and finally go on to give the Complete Warrior Samurai a much-needed nerfing.