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Thread: Ploughs and Cows
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2007-01-21, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Ploughs and Cows
Ok, so I'm making this world with little-to-no magic and I was wondering... per, say, 1,000 people in an urban environment, does anyone know how much land and how many farmers it would take to support them? Normally I would just cover up any slip-ups like inconsistant world infrastructure with something along the lines of "A Wizard Did It" but that won't work this time... assume northern-europe-ish seasons with middle ages technology and irragation techniques... also, how cool would it be to have Minataur slaves pulling ploughs instead of oxen? (You know... other than the fact it that it would be the enslavement of a sapient being to do farmwork and all... yeah... evil damn humans)
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2007-01-21, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
Remember that having a single fifth-level druid (or eleventh-level ranger, if you prefer) on good terms with you grants you a 33% increase in crop yeilds. Conversely, having a fifth-level druid on bad terms with you gets you a 33% decrease in crop yeilds.
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2007-01-21, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!
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2007-01-21, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
Having a village druid is probably a rare thing.
So really, what I'm asking is... in normal middle-ages europe (earth) what was the percentage of the population who's life-long persuit approximated to growing food... and what percent should be rural?
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2007-01-21, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
Wait... it's a dreamscape, and you're afraid you won't be able to rationalize off inconsistencies?
What kind of a hokey non-reality are you running, anyway?
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2007-01-21, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
You know, nothing says they have to be slaves. A ton of people, especially in the middle ages, were pretty much stuck wherever they were born. Feudalism was a fairly effective alternative to 'slavery'.
So if minotaur are simply lower class, that may be the only method they have of feeding their families. So yeah, minotaurs may (in fact) work better than most, especially if comparably docile compared to normal. Centuries of working as lower class units could cause that, especially in a pseudo-idealistic world.
Edit: Ah, right, the other question.
Hrm. You know, the only book I have with a city detailed in it is Saltmarsh in the DMG2, and I... I honestly have no idea how the people of Saltmarsh manage to eat, from a quick skim through that section. Sorry. O-oLast edited by Kantolin; 2007-01-21 at 11:55 PM.
Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...
~ Final Fantasy Tactics
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2007-01-21, 11:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
Wait... it's a dreamscape, and you're afraid you won't be able to rationalize off inconsistencies?
What kind of a hokey non-reality are you running, anyway?
Of coarse! The Great Dreamer doesn't Dream the NEED for food! No-one eats! All urban game world! GREAT SCOTT ON A POGO STICK!
Kantolin:
Hey, that's a good idea... huh... I mean, what are they going to do, revolt from they're peasant labour jobs, eat humans and meek out existance in the woods outside the principality walls where bloodthirsty fey feed on souls? Farmwork isn't THAT bad.The reason we have ten fingers and only two eyes, is that we may type more and read less.
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2007-01-22, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
I'd say it's best to hit the history books maybe, perhaps Wikipedia. Unless (and I suppose it is possible) a history (or Amish...) buff comes in here and tells you what's what in a non-technological/non-magical agrarian societ, how much crops are needed/typical, and all the other goody crunchiness, we're all just winging it with our modern sensibilities. As long as it's believable enough for your players, eh.
Shalom
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2007-01-22, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
Not to mention, odds are (when this was first started), any minotaur who did that were routinely and brutally removed from existance.
Or, just as likely, the minotaur used to be monsters, and were beaten so hardcore that the only ones that remained were the more docile, less violent, less violently evil ones.
They would then pass on their genes to their children in a fashion which may or may not work in D&D, but hey... the result could be much more calm, possibly even less stupid minotaur. Not smart, but intelligent enough to know a comparably good life when they see it.Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...
~ Final Fantasy Tactics
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2007-01-22, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
Unless (and I suppose it is possible) a history (or Amish...) buff comes in here
Or, just as likely, the minotaur used to be monsters, and were beaten so hardcore that the only ones that remained were the more docile, less violent, less violently evil ones.Last edited by Frosty Flake; 2007-01-22 at 12:10 AM.
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Magus avatar by Gorbash Kazdar
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2007-01-22, 12:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
XD.
I was actually reffering to the fact that you're fretting over exact numbers!
Unless the person dreaming is an "accountant" type or otherwise would have done VAST research into the matter, they would probably know exactly as much about it as you... and so the numbers would presumably work out to about the same as whatever you come up with off the top of your head.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against wanting to pay attention to details... but still, why would statistics be more of an issue for a DREAM based setting?Last edited by Divides; 2007-01-22 at 12:15 AM.
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2007-01-22, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
I think even if the minotaurs were extremely docile, they would probably be made into soldiers and guards instead of farm labor. Any humanoid that big and strong is likely to be used to scare people instead of doing work a dumb animal can easily do. If nothing else, minotaurs would probably be the farmers themselves, being large and strong enough to handle the work easily, and perhaps having some sort of link to the animals they work with.
Of course, my dreams are usually incredibly mundane, to the point I sometimes mistake conversations that happen in them to have actually occured. So, you know, go nuts :)Spoiler
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2007-01-22, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
I think even if the minotaurs were extremely docile, they would probably be made into soldiers and guards instead of farm labor. Any humanoid that big and strong is likely to be used to scare people instead of doing work a dumb animal can easily do. If nothing else, minotaurs would probably be the farmers themselves, being large and strong enough to handle the work easily, and perhaps having some sort of link to the animals they work with.The reason we have ten fingers and only two eyes, is that we may type more and read less.
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2007-01-22, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
But Mino...
...uh... what Frosty said.
It would also be a fact that the people in power would be potentially worried about what could happen if the minotaur ever attempted to step into power. Thus there'd possibly be subtle steps taken to ensure that their numbers are low.
Of course, a happy minotaur serf could prompt generations of everything working acceptably, minus a few uppity ones here and there. But really, that's not so unusual for the medievil ages.Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...
~ Final Fantasy Tactics
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2007-01-22, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
I am fairly certain large things are quite scary, urban area or not. You don't exactly see gangs of midgets running rampant in NYC, terrorizing all they meet.
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2007-01-22, 01:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
Would also be a fact that the people in power would be potentially worried about what could happen if the minotaur ever attempted to step into power. Thus there'd possibly be subtle steps taken to ensure that their numbers are low.
I am fairly certain large things are quite scary, urban area or not. You don't exactly see gangs of midgets running rampant in NYC, terrorizing all they meet.The reason we have ten fingers and only two eyes, is that we may type more and read less.
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2007-01-22, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
Hmmm, using the same method as that by which 93% of statistics were generated, I would say that you need about 1 acre of grain per 10 people in the city. It takes an 1 ox 1 day to plow an acre, by definition, so, if planting season is about 10 days long, and every farmer has 2 oxen, you need 1 farmer per 200 people in the city. Ta-da! Problem solved!
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2007-01-22, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
They already did that in real life. Of course, it could be argued an
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Well, you get the idea.
You could also go with the Dragonlancish minotaurs, but those are more Medium-sized, and might not be nearly as suitable.President of the Society for Hobgoblin Equality in Level Adjustment(SHELA)
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2007-01-22, 07:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
Its cute fluff, but since you are interested in real world mechanics, I would nix the minotaur slaves, at least as plowers.
1. Slaves are an inferior source of labor. They have to be controlled, they have to be maintained, they have to be coerced, and still they generally provide a substandard level of labor. They were used so extensively in human history only because 1) they were more or less free for the taking (for the slavers at least) and 2) they were intelligent, thus requiring minimal training and able to preform tasks your average cow couldn't dream of.
2. For field plowing, you dont require any kind of intelligence whatsoever, except for a young child to steer the cattle and occasionally egg them onwards.
3. Unless your minotaurs are capable of serious bestial strength, (which would make them rather hard to control) they will still be subpar to your average field oxen. Those animals were bred over countless generations to be subservient, docile, and INCREDIBLY strong. Plus, they have four legs. This gives them a fundamental advantage when it comes to dragging a heavy metal object through the mud.
As to how much land is required to support a family, it depends on the crop being grown. Potato farmers in Ireland were able to meek out a miserable life on surprisingly little land (less than an acre but you better look that up.) In Cuba, where a lot of the locals are basically sustenance farmers, I remember seeing plots of 2 to 3 acres with various crops, mostly corn and malanga which is a tropical potato. Chickens were in high abundance, there were usually a family or three of pigs per village, oxen were strictly for field work and only eaten when they died of natural causes, and horses were rare and for the wealthy.
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2007-01-22, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
IIRC from my days studying the 3 field system, 1 acre per family was the feudal norm, though, as daggaz said, this varies with crops. The potato caught on in Ireland because it had a higher yield per acre. So in your world, you can just say that whatever crop they're growing has a yield per acre sufficient to feed the population. (And then you can decide just how precarious this balance is, in case of bad weather, warfare, crop disease etc etc.)
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2007-01-22, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
As a rule of thumb, figure that about 90-95% of your population is involved in agriculture. With a good, three-field system in relatively new fields (i.e. haven't been worked for centuries, plenty of fertilizer, etc.), you can go into the 80s, but medieval agriculture was very labor intensive. This assumes that you have such technological advances as the horse collar (and the horses to wear them) and that your "druids" have some influence on farming methods... not "plant growth", but crop rotation and soil-enriching plants.
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2007-01-22, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
since you are interested in real world mechanics, I would nix the minotaur slaves, at least as plowers.Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...
~ Final Fantasy Tactics
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2007-01-22, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
I highly recommend A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe for dealing with stuff like this in D&D 3.x. You could also try Medieval Demographics Made Easy.
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2007-01-22, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
I think that's exactly the trick. Pick out the ones that show initiative and let them join the enforcers of the social order. Don't let them join the ruling class, of course -- just give them enough perks that they have a vested interest in maintaining the current system.
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2007-01-22, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
*shudders*
well according to the 2001 Canadian census there were 246,923 for roughly 35 million people. LOL'
That was the only farm fact i could find. I guess if you have 35 million in your city your set.
www.statcan.ca
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2007-01-22, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
I highly recommend A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe for dealing with stuff like this in D&D 3.x. You could also try Medieval Demographics Made Easy.The reason we have ten fingers and only two eyes, is that we may type more and read less.
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2007-01-22, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
No problem. Glad to be of service.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
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2007-01-22, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ploughs and Cows
Check this out for demographics:
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm
Someone even made a calculator at the end, which is pretty darn cool...