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    Frosty Flake's Avatar

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    Question Ploughs and Cows

    Ok, so I'm making this world with little-to-no magic and I was wondering... per, say, 1,000 people in an urban environment, does anyone know how much land and how many farmers it would take to support them? Normally I would just cover up any slip-ups like inconsistant world infrastructure with something along the lines of "A Wizard Did It" but that won't work this time... assume northern-europe-ish seasons with middle ages technology and irragation techniques... also, how cool would it be to have Minataur slaves pulling ploughs instead of oxen? (You know... other than the fact it that it would be the enslavement of a sapient being to do farmwork and all... yeah... evil damn humans)

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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Remember that having a single fifth-level druid (or eleventh-level ranger, if you prefer) on good terms with you grants you a 33% increase in crop yeilds. Conversely, having a fifth-level druid on bad terms with you gets you a 33% decrease in crop yeilds.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Mewtarthio View Post
    Remember that having a single fifth-level druid (or eleventh-level ranger, if you prefer) on good terms with you grants you a 33% increase in crop yeilds. Conversely, having a fifth-level druid on bad terms with you gets you a 33% decrease in crop yeilds.
    Yes, but he did say little-to-no magic. Having a village druid is probably a rare thing.

    Minotaur slaves would work, as long as you can come up with a good reason why they don't rebel. It's difficult to heavily guard large quantities of powerful slaves.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Having a village druid is probably a rare thing.
    let me be clearer... The world is actually a dream (in the dreamscape) and a great barrier cuts it off from the other planes of existance, as well as ALL devine power... Druids do exist, as a secretive order of non-magical nature-worshipping scholars that act as guides for caravans travelling through fey-infested forests. No Clerics. No Wizards. Nothing with spell-lists, actually... all magic is ritual and takes a hell of a lot of time and costs a bajumble in gimicks and candles...

    So really, what I'm asking is... in normal middle-ages europe (earth) what was the percentage of the population who's life-long persuit approximated to growing food... and what percent should be rural?

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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Wait... it's a dreamscape, and you're afraid you won't be able to rationalize off inconsistencies?

    What kind of a hokey non-reality are you running, anyway?

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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    You know, nothing says they have to be slaves. A ton of people, especially in the middle ages, were pretty much stuck wherever they were born. Feudalism was a fairly effective alternative to 'slavery'.

    So if minotaur are simply lower class, that may be the only method they have of feeding their families. So yeah, minotaurs may (in fact) work better than most, especially if comparably docile compared to normal. Centuries of working as lower class units could cause that, especially in a pseudo-idealistic world.

    Edit: Ah, right, the other question.

    Hrm. You know, the only book I have with a city detailed in it is Saltmarsh in the DMG2, and I... I honestly have no idea how the people of Saltmarsh manage to eat, from a quick skim through that section. Sorry. O-o
    Last edited by Kantolin; 2007-01-21 at 11:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Wait... it's a dreamscape, and you're afraid you won't be able to rationalize off inconsistencies?

    What kind of a hokey non-reality are you running, anyway?
    *smacks forehead*

    Of coarse! The Great Dreamer doesn't Dream the NEED for food! No-one eats! All urban game world! GREAT SCOTT ON A POGO STICK!

    Kantolin:
    Hey, that's a good idea... huh... I mean, what are they going to do, revolt from they're peasant labour jobs, eat humans and meek out existance in the woods outside the principality walls where bloodthirsty fey feed on souls? Farmwork isn't THAT bad.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    I'd say it's best to hit the history books maybe, perhaps Wikipedia. Unless (and I suppose it is possible) a history (or Amish...) buff comes in here and tells you what's what in a non-technological/non-magical agrarian societ, how much crops are needed/typical, and all the other goody crunchiness, we're all just winging it with our modern sensibilities. As long as it's believable enough for your players, eh.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Not to mention, odds are (when this was first started), any minotaur who did that were routinely and brutally removed from existance.

    Or, just as likely, the minotaur used to be monsters, and were beaten so hardcore that the only ones that remained were the more docile, less violent, less violently evil ones.

    They would then pass on their genes to their children in a fashion which may or may not work in D&D, but hey... the result could be much more calm, possibly even less stupid minotaur. Not smart, but intelligent enough to know a comparably good life when they see it.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Unless (and I suppose it is possible) a history (or Amish...) buff comes in here
    Acutally... I was sort of hoping for the random appearance of a well-informed agricultural history buff... you know... figured if you had enough nerds in one place...
    Or, just as likely, the minotaur used to be monsters, and were beaten so hardcore that the only ones that remained were the more docile, less violent, less violently evil ones.
    This would go well with my world idea that evil has a very human face...
    Last edited by Frosty Flake; 2007-01-22 at 12:10 AM.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty Flake View Post
    *smacks forehead*

    Of coarse! The Great Dreamer doesn't Dream the NEED for food! No-one eats! All urban game world! GREAT SCOTT ON A POGO STICK!
    XD.

    I was actually reffering to the fact that you're fretting over exact numbers!

    Unless the person dreaming is an "accountant" type or otherwise would have done VAST research into the matter, they would probably know exactly as much about it as you... and so the numbers would presumably work out to about the same as whatever you come up with off the top of your head.


    Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against wanting to pay attention to details... but still, why would statistics be more of an issue for a DREAM based setting?
    Last edited by Divides; 2007-01-22 at 12:15 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    I think even if the minotaurs were extremely docile, they would probably be made into soldiers and guards instead of farm labor. Any humanoid that big and strong is likely to be used to scare people instead of doing work a dumb animal can easily do. If nothing else, minotaurs would probably be the farmers themselves, being large and strong enough to handle the work easily, and perhaps having some sort of link to the animals they work with.

    Of course, my dreams are usually incredibly mundane, to the point I sometimes mistake conversations that happen in them to have actually occured. So, you know, go nuts :)
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    I think even if the minotaurs were extremely docile, they would probably be made into soldiers and guards instead of farm labor. Any humanoid that big and strong is likely to be used to scare people instead of doing work a dumb animal can easily do. If nothing else, minotaurs would probably be the farmers themselves, being large and strong enough to handle the work easily, and perhaps having some sort of link to the animals they work with.
    Nah... Only Humans are allowed to own property, so Mins would have to be hired labour at best and a cabal of cancer mages, ritually scarred warriors, rabid shroom-eating flagellants and fey-possesed sheild golems generally handle any intimidating required of the city's prince... Large creatures can't enforce in dense, crowded urban areas very well... unless they go all The Tick on the place, but that drives down property value, which isn't very evil at all. Real Estate agents are LE.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    But Mino...

    ...uh... what Frosty said.

    It would also be a fact that the people in power would be potentially worried about what could happen if the minotaur ever attempted to step into power. Thus there'd possibly be subtle steps taken to ensure that their numbers are low.

    Of course, a happy minotaur serf could prompt generations of everything working acceptably, minus a few uppity ones here and there. But really, that's not so unusual for the medievil ages.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    I am fairly certain large things are quite scary, urban area or not. You don't exactly see gangs of midgets running rampant in NYC, terrorizing all they meet.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Would also be a fact that the people in power would be potentially worried about what could happen if the minotaur ever attempted to step into power. Thus there'd possibly be subtle steps taken to ensure that their numbers are low.
    hmmm... true... Plus, smart evil men will not look at a downtrodden, spit-upon and abused yet massive and physically supirior minority and think "Hey, let's give them swords and law enforcement powers"
    I am fairly certain large things are quite scary, urban area or not. You don't exactly see gangs of midgets running rampant in NYC, terrorizing all they meet.
    Strangely, I've only seen that in Toronto... must be a local thing... But that aside, it's not a matter of fear or lack thereof. It's a matter of inefectiveness... Big gets in the way of actually getting the job done in a dense squalor and you need intelligent and resourcefull enforces to keep a massive metropolis down... or a beurocracy, but I'm going with option A... more thematic.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Hmmm, using the same method as that by which 93% of statistics were generated, I would say that you need about 1 acre of grain per 10 people in the city. It takes an 1 ox 1 day to plow an acre, by definition, so, if planting season is about 10 days long, and every farmer has 2 oxen, you need 1 farmer per 200 people in the city. Ta-da! Problem solved!
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty Flake View Post
    hmmm... true... Plus, smart evil men will not look at a downtrodden, spit-upon and abused yet massive and physically supirior minority and think "Hey, let's give them swords and law enforcement powers"
    They already did that in real life. Of course, it could be argued an

    *WARNING, you are crossing into a board no-no zone!*

    Well, you get the idea.

    You could also go with the Dragonlancish minotaurs, but those are more Medium-sized, and might not be nearly as suitable.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Its cute fluff, but since you are interested in real world mechanics, I would nix the minotaur slaves, at least as plowers.

    1. Slaves are an inferior source of labor. They have to be controlled, they have to be maintained, they have to be coerced, and still they generally provide a substandard level of labor. They were used so extensively in human history only because 1) they were more or less free for the taking (for the slavers at least) and 2) they were intelligent, thus requiring minimal training and able to preform tasks your average cow couldn't dream of.

    2. For field plowing, you dont require any kind of intelligence whatsoever, except for a young child to steer the cattle and occasionally egg them onwards.

    3. Unless your minotaurs are capable of serious bestial strength, (which would make them rather hard to control) they will still be subpar to your average field oxen. Those animals were bred over countless generations to be subservient, docile, and INCREDIBLY strong. Plus, they have four legs. This gives them a fundamental advantage when it comes to dragging a heavy metal object through the mud.

    As to how much land is required to support a family, it depends on the crop being grown. Potato farmers in Ireland were able to meek out a miserable life on surprisingly little land (less than an acre but you better look that up.) In Cuba, where a lot of the locals are basically sustenance farmers, I remember seeing plots of 2 to 3 acres with various crops, mostly corn and malanga which is a tropical potato. Chickens were in high abundance, there were usually a family or three of pigs per village, oxen were strictly for field work and only eaten when they died of natural causes, and horses were rare and for the wealthy.

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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    IIRC from my days studying the 3 field system, 1 acre per family was the feudal norm, though, as daggaz said, this varies with crops. The potato caught on in Ireland because it had a higher yield per acre. So in your world, you can just say that whatever crop they're growing has a yield per acre sufficient to feed the population. (And then you can decide just how precarious this balance is, in case of bad weather, warfare, crop disease etc etc.)
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    As a rule of thumb, figure that about 90-95% of your population is involved in agriculture. With a good, three-field system in relatively new fields (i.e. haven't been worked for centuries, plenty of fertilizer, etc.), you can go into the 80s, but medieval agriculture was very labor intensive. This assumes that you have such technological advances as the horse collar (and the horses to wear them) and that your "druids" have some influence on farming methods... not "plant growth", but crop rotation and soil-enriching plants.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    since you are interested in real world mechanics, I would nix the minotaur slaves, at least as plowers.
    Yes, but serfs are a somewhat different matter. It's like slavery, but dressed up in such a pretty fashion that nobody including the serfs mind too much. I mean, you don't have to keep someone in chains to keep them from rising up the social ladder or joining the military.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    I highly recommend A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe for dealing with stuff like this in D&D 3.x. You could also try Medieval Demographics Made Easy.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantolin View Post
    Yes, but serfs are a somewhat different matter. It's like slavery, but dressed up in such a pretty fashion that nobody including the serfs mind too much. I mean, you don't have to keep someone in chains to keep them from rising up the social ladder or joining the military.
    I think that's exactly the trick. Pick out the ones that show initiative and let them join the enforcers of the social order. Don't let them join the ruling class, of course -- just give them enough perks that they have a vested interest in maintaining the current system.

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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Quote Originally Posted by Wehrkind View Post
    You don't exactly see gangs of midgets running rampant in NYC, terrorizing all they meet.
    *shudders*

    well according to the 2001 Canadian census there were 246,923 for roughly 35 million people. LOL'

    That was the only farm fact i could find. I guess if you have 35 million in your city your set.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    I highly recommend A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe for dealing with stuff like this in D&D 3.x. You could also try Medieval Demographics Made Easy.
    That's perfect, thanks! Even a bibliography for further research if I want...
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    No problem. Glad to be of service.
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    Default Re: Ploughs and Cows

    Check this out for demographics:
    http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm

    Someone even made a calculator at the end, which is pretty darn cool...

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