help with Cleric Melee build

[daggaz]

Starting a new session in a week or two, so far we are
-a halfling or elven rogue
-a human wizard
-a druid (probably elf or human)

After a hefty discussion with the druid, I am considering playing a melee type cleric (he said both that a) druids weren't overpowered and b) clerics couldn't melee effectively.) I had been thinking of going barbarian, but now he has got my guile, and to tell the truth, the idea has intrigued me for a while anyhow..

Problem is, Ive only ever played healbots. I have some ideas, but would welcome any suggestions for optimal melee cleric builds that cover the first few levels or so. Sure I can figure my way from there. We are probably getting a choice between rolling stats or 28-32 point buy.

I still might just go barbarian.

[Yuki Akuma]

What level are you starting at?

Remember to take Quicken, Persist and Divine Metamagic as soon as you can.

Extra Turning couldn't hurt, either.

(This is, of course, assuming you intend to powergame as much as you can to prove him wrong. Which I approve of wholeheartedly. Just warn your DM first.)

[daggaz]

We are starting at level one. Booya!

[JaronK]

Go human. Take Planning and Strength as your domains (Planning gives you Extend Spell). Now as your feats take Persistant Spell and Divine Metamagic Persistant Spell. At level three, take Extra Turning, and you're already able to persist something silly. Yehaw!

JaronK

[Zincorium]

War domain, preferably with a diety with some nifty chosen weapon, and the other domain should be anything with spells you couldn't get otherwise, both of which will depend entirely on what dieties can be chosen.

Focus on self buffs like divine power and reighteous might, and since those buffs are your key to melee dominance, the quicken metamagic feat will let you spend more time bashing.

And honestly, a medium BAB, high str, a two handed weapon, and the buffs of a cleric is a formidible opponent as it is. Don't worry about so much dominating as making sure you survive and the other characters have your back. The last thing you want is to be left without a flanking buddy when things get hairy.

[Yuki Akuma]

Planning is actually a good idea. Go with Planning and either Strength or War (I think Strength is slightly better, personally).

Domains that give you a useful feat for free are good. And the Strength domain ability is nice, as are the spells.

Weapon Focus is not a useful feat.

[Nebo_]

If you're willing to lose a caster level, Human Paragon from UA gets a bonus feat that can be used for Extra Turning and proficiency with any one martial weapon.
A persistant cleric in a game I am playing in is using that build and it looks as though it's worth the CL loss.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you're willing to lose a caster level, Human Paragon from UA gets a bonus feat that can be used for Extra Turning and proficiency with any one martial weapon.
A persistant cleric in a game I am playing in is using that build and it looks as though it's worth the CL loss.

Losing one CL isn't bad for a cleric. 2 isn't sub-par, as you're a full spell level behind the wizard. Three is pushing it. Four is just stupid, as you lose out on ninth-level spells.

[daggaz]

Yeah but war domain gives martial weapon proficiency as well, which is nice if I want to 2 hand something... add to that the +1 from weapon focus and its pretty ok. Plus all the Power Word spells you dont normally get. (Save or die straight from arcana? Yes please.)

Im especially thinking about the fact that I am starting from level one anyhow, so it will be weeks before I can make any use of any metamagic feats.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yeah but war domain gives martial weapon proficiency as well, which is nice if I want to 2 hand something... add to that the +1 from weapon focus and its pretty ok. Plus all the Power Word spells you dont normally get. (Save or die straight from arcana? Yes please.)

Im especially thinking about the fact that I am starting from level one anyhow, so it will be weeks before I can make any use of any metamagic feats.

Extend is useful at level three... And Power Word spells are not conductive to a good melee cleric build.

You don't need a martial weapon. A morningstar will do you just fine.

[daggaz]

How come I cant find persist anywhere in the SRD? Can anyone give me a general idea what it does?

[Matthew]

Yuki is right, a Morning Star will serve fine. However, if you can find a Deity with the right domain and whose favourite weapon is a Great Sword or something, it might be worth it.

[Zincorium]

You don't need a martial weapon. A morningstar will do you just fine.

Which is why, no matter what other options exist, every warrior build includes morningstars. Especially at level 1. Right.

War seems to be a sub-par option compared to planning if you can't get the persist build going, and the power word spells aren't melee, but there's no sense restricting yourself only to melee if you have multiple good options.

[Person_Man]

Persistent Spell is a metamagic feat from Complete Arcane. It gives a spell a 24 hour duration, but uses up a slot 6 levels higher. Divine Metamagic is a metamagic feat from Complete Divine. It lets you burn Turn Undead uses to lower the level adjustment of a metamagic feat. Together, they equal 24 hour buffs with no level adjustment to the spell. I personally ban them from my games. Talk to your DM if you intend to use it. The fastest entry to this build: Undeath and Planning domains, Extra Turning and Persistant Spell feats, high Cha. 1st level 24 hour lesser Vigor (Fast healing 1).


Here's a simple set of effective Cleric tactics that requires far less cheese:

1) Buy the Spell Compedium. This will greatly expand the spells you have access to, and give you access to more powerful Domains (which you can also find at Crystalkeep). My favorites:

• Domination: Spell Focus Enchantment, Suggestion, Dominate Person.
• Dream: Immune to Fear, Sleep, Deep Slumber.
• Renewal: Gain 1d8+Cha hit points if you drop below 0, Charm Person.
• Summoner: +2 Caster Level to Summon spells.
• Time: Improved Initiative, True Strike, Haste.
• Travel: PHB, Free Movement, Longstrider, D Door, Fly.
• Trasformation: +1 Caster Level to Trasmutation Spells, Enlarge, Alter Self.

2) Have someone scout ahead of the main party (usually a Rogue, Ranger, or Scout) and report back to you when he finds trouble. This will give you time to prepare before combat (unless the DM wants to ambush you for plot reasons).

3) Just before combat, buff yourself with a few spells. Once you hit 4th-ish level spells, 2-4 buff spells will generally make you more powerful then most melee based classes. If you're a really nice guy, cast the buff spells on the melee classes instead of or in addition to you. Then its even more effective, and your party members love you.

4) First round of combat, summon a monster just behind (but still in contact) with your enemy.

Second round of combat, charge and flank your enemy (unless you have a Rogue, then let him flank).

Kill your enemies.

[ken-do-nim]

• Time: Improved Initiative, True Strike, Haste.

Yeah, I think the time domain is broken. Notice it gives a 9th level wizard spell as an 8th level spell choice. Not to mention a full feat (improved initiative) and one of the best wizard buffs (haste). And true strike + harm rocks!!!

I don't allow it in campaigns I DM.

[daggaz]

Damn. Persist + Divine = cheese. I really hate how cheesy all the splat books and PrC's are. Its basically just 100% catering to powergamers, without a whole lot of thought to either game balance or rollplaying aspects.Luckily, half my group are total n00bs, so we are restricted to all but the most basic extra books, it will be mostly core. (DM choice) Also, my DM has mentioned that he is way more for story than for hacknslash, so if we are looking to powergame, look elsewhere. So yeah, I appreciate all the help, think Im gonna stick with more reasonable abilities and a really good story, and take my chances now and then when I do get to wade into battle and smack em down.So far I really like War domain for the chance to wield a big 2hander (how fighter-like can you get?) as well as some good smack em dead spells, and I am leaning for strength, tho considering its a one round action... gotta check those spells again. Well, in the end, its going to come down to what kind of good story line I can come up with and am comfortable playing.

[The_Snark]

If you're going to go with a melee smiting cleric, the Strength and War domains are useful. Destruction isn't bad either. With a cleric, you really don't need to powergame much to be pretty powerful; you have a decent arsenal of spells like Shatter, Hold Person, etc., plus the ability to wade into melee combat reasonably well when you don't want to waste spells.

Divine metamagic is really not necessary for making a cleric character good.

Also, why is True Strike +Harm so good? A cleric who can't hit with a touch attack at that level is in bad shape anyway.

[Red Sky Knight]

I recently played a cleric of Talos with the strength and war domains. With a +2 str bonus at first level, a masterwork battle axe and the weapon focus feat made him a reasonable front-liner for first level. His wisdom I gave the higher score, though, and played him as the "guru" of war, totally in tune with the red tides of battle, with a serene demanour and an eerie calmness. He saw that war had it's own deep spirituality to it.

[Yuki Akuma]

At least pick up Extend and Quicken.

And remember, most of your good buffs are self-only.

(Divine Metamagic is only really cheesy if you abuse it. Remember, it costs a number of turning uses equal to 1 + the level adjustment of the Metamagic feat. So a Divine Persisted spell costs 7 turning uses. And you can't just use five uses to make it into a +2 spell level feat, either.)

[PinkysBrain]

With core only the cleric needs time to buff before he can perform well in melee ... and even then it's hard to compete with the Druid due to wild shape, unless you use polymorph.

[ken-do-nim]

Also, why is True Strike +Harm so good? A cleric who can't hit with a touch attack at that level is in bad shape anyway.

True strike also avoids concealment. Displaced? Not a problem. Mirror imaged? Just close your eyes and poke your hand out.

[Person_Man]

The whole Divine Metamagic + Persistant combo wasn't made on purpose. They're from seperate books by different authors. 80% of the optimization combo's were published by WotC by accident. They don't bother to playtest anything before they publish it, nor do they take the simple step of releasing a summary to to bullitin boards to see how people can combine them with pre-existing rules.

It's an easily broken combo. First, consider that you're not fighting undead most of the time. So there's no reason to hold onto those turn attempts. Second, consider that most Clerics go into a Prestige class pretty early in their career, so their Turn ability quickly becomes useless against undead. So its natural for them to take a feat that burns turn uses to get something else. Third, Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) are a cheap magic item that give you additional turn attempts. Fourth, you can take the Extra Turning feat multiple times. Fifth, you can buff your Cha multiple ways (Eagle's Splendor being the easiest, but there are many), thus increasing the number of turn attempts.

So, its quite easy for a Cleric of any level to be buffed multiple times, all day. Which again, is why I ban Divine Metamagic.

[ken-do-nim]

The whole Divine Metamagic + Persistant combo wasn't made on purpose. They're from seperate books by different authors. 80% of the optimization combo's were published by WotC by accident. They don't bother to playtest anything before they publish it, nor do they take the simple step of releasing a summary to to bullitin boards to see how people can combine them with pre-existing rules.

It's an easily broken combo. First, consider that you're not fighting undead most of the time. So there's no reason to hold onto those turn attempts. Second, consider that most Clerics go into a Prestige class pretty early in their career, so their Turn ability quickly becomes useless against undead. So its natural for them to take a feat that burns turn uses to get something else. Third, Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) are a cheap magic item that give you additional turn attempts. Fourth, you can take the Extra Turning feat multiple times. Fifth, you can buff your Cha multiple ways (Eagle's Splendor being the easiest, but there are many), thus increasing the number of turn attempts.

So, its quite easy for a Cleric of any level to be buffed multiple times, all day. Which again, is why I ban Divine Metamagic.

Well said! I want to ban all divine feats period, but I'm torn because it helps out paladins a lot. For clerics, as you pointed out, it completely eliminates any worries about prestige-classing, which I don't think is right.

[PinkysBrain]

The whole Divine Metamagic + Persistant combo wasn't made on purpose. They're from seperate books by different authors. 80% of the optimization combo's were published by WotC by accident.

Meh, it works almost just as well with quicken.

[Person_Man]

Meh, it works almost just as well with quicken.

A Quickened spell takes up a slot 4 levels higher. So I'm fine with that trade off, assuming the Cleric doesn't use Divine Metamagic to negate it.

[PinkysBrain]

No, I meant divine metamagic works almost as well with quicken spell as it does with persistent spell ... and quicken was right there in core when they wrote up divine metamagic. It was broken by design, not by unintended combination.

[Person_Man]

No, I meant divine metamagic works almost as well with quicken spell as it does with persistent spell ... and quicken was right there in core when they wrote up divine metamagic. It was broken by design, not by unintended combination.

Ah. So WotC always ignorant of other supplements. Some times they just don't bother reading their own core rules. Point taken.

[The_Snark]

Well said! I want to ban all divine feats period, but I'm torn because it helps out paladins a lot. For clerics, as you pointed out, it completely eliminates any worries about prestige-classing, which I don't think is right.

I wouldn't ban them all. Some of them are reasonable and useful; the PHBII has some of those, and Divine Vengeance (or whatever the one that adds Charisma to damage) is nice for paladins in particular. I also like Divine Spell Power, straight out of Complete Divine.

[Sulecrist]

What prestige classes would you recommend for Clerics? And what book is Planning in? Deities and Demigods?

[cupkeyk]

Planning is in Player's Guide to Faerun