Scribe Martial Script Idea

[Fax Celestis]

Would it be a viable option to allow the scripting of feats, using the Scribe Martial Script feat, making the feat usable by the reader for minutes/scribe's level?

Conversely, tell me if that makes any sense at all.

[Yuki Akuma]

It might make sense for certain feats, like Stunning Fist, Improved Trip, Combat Expertise, Power Attack...

But it would make no sense for metamagic or item creation feats. At all. Although the second would be useless anyway.

There are magic items that grant feats, so I don't see why not...

[Fax Celestis]

I should clarify further. Since this is "Scribe Martial Script" we're talking about, the feats in question would have to be those designated as Fighter Bonus Feats.

[MrNexx]

Here I thought you were talking about the ToB maneuvers.

[Fax Celestis]

Here I thought you were talking about the ToB maneuvers.

Well, that's the orginal intention of the feat, but this would be a secondary application.

[elliott20]

as far as a gaming device goes, it's actually a very common plot device in Chinese Martial arts novels. Frequently, a character with a limited amount of power finds this script that teaches him/her how to unlock his/her potential, and subsequently becoming far more powerful than their original arts.

In fact, the concept was used in Tekken 5, where one of the characters Feng Wei finds a scroll that teaches him powers untold.

The center of the idea though, is that the character has to have time to digest the text. He needs time to practice the content. It's not quite like a wizard who copies a spell into his book and instantly has the ability to use it.

However, I would be hesitant to use this as a means of giving people more feats than they are allowed. I still think that any character wanting to use them should be following standard rules. (only allowed to learn a new feat when they have a new feat available to them.) So, for example, you can't load a level 1 fighter with 17 feats because he happens upon a giant pile of martial scripts, or give a wizard 7 fighters feats just because he has the money to spend.

I do think, however, the scrolls should allow the benefit of getting around certain sticky requirements that might not normally allow the character to pick the feat. i.e. ability score requirement, etc.

but again, you have to play with this carefully as just like any variant rule, when you make a rule that breaks or bends a mechanic, you open up room for abuse.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, so what about an overlapping thing: if you read another script, you lose the first one. And it's not permanently learning it (so you can't use it for prerequisites) but instead gaining access to it for a number of minutes (reasonably, up to 20, but usually more around six).

[elliott20]

that makes even LESS sense. Unless your characters have a problem with amnesia, there is no reason why he shouldn't retain what he has already learned and was able to use. (Barring magical enchantment)

You see, I can almost understand if you say something like, "okay, even though you only have a 10 dex, if you read this scroll, you're allowed to spend your new bonus feat on two-weapon fighting."

Then that would be a very real benefit that, while a little munchy, is not entirely game breaking. It also means that the only way the same character can continue to learn more about two-weapon fighting is by getting the next scroll of the series.

But to just GIVE characters free feats for reading the text just because they have it in their hand? That's a dangerous thing to do. What's to stop a character from just handing that script over to each party member and having each one learn said feat? Again, barring some quite powerful magic, this sort of thing should not so easily confer benefits to people.

now if you're talking about a magical item like say Tome of Intelligence where you can gain ability score bonuses, then okay, I can see how said scroll can give a character free feats. But that would be some pretty major magic going on there. and I doubt such a thing would be sold in stores or even made regularly.

[Fax Celestis]

that makes even LESS sense. Unless your characters have a problem with amnesia, there is no reason why he shouldn't retain what he has already learned and was able to use. (Barring magical enchantment)

You see, I can almost understand if you say something like, "okay, even though you only have a 10 dex, if you read this scroll, you're allowed to spend your new bonus feat on two-weapon fighting."

Then that would be a very real benefit that, while a little munchy, is not entirely game breaking. It also means that the only way the same character can continue to learn more about two-weapon fighting is by getting the next scroll of the series.

But to just GIVE characters free feats for reading the text just because they have it in their hand? That's a dangerous thing to do. What's to stop a character from just handing that script over to each party member and having each one learn said feat? Again, barring some quite powerful magic, this sort of thing should not so easily confer benefits to people.

now if you're talking about a magical item like say Tome of Intelligence where you can gain ability score bonuses, then okay, I can see how said scroll can give a character free feats. But that would be some pretty major magic going on there. and I doubt such a thing would be sold in stores or even made regularly.

...how is it any difference than casting a spell from a scroll or wand?

[Yuki Akuma]

that makes even LESS sense. Unless your characters have a problem with amnesia, there is no reason why he shouldn't retain what he has already learned and was able to use. (Barring magical enchantment)

You see, I can almost understand if you say something like, "okay, even though you only have a 10 dex, if you read this scroll, you're allowed to spend your new bonus feat on two-weapon fighting."

Then that would be a very real benefit that, while a little munchy, is not entirely game breaking. It also means that the only way the same character can continue to learn more about two-weapon fighting is by getting the next scroll of the series.

But to just GIVE characters free feats for reading the text just because they have it in their hand? That's a dangerous thing to do. What's to stop a character from just handing that script over to each party member and having each one learn said feat? Again, barring some quite powerful magic, this sort of thing should not so easily confer benefits to people.

now if you're talking about a magical item like say Tome of Intelligence where you can gain ability score bonuses, then okay, I can see how said scroll can give a character free feats. But that would be some pretty major magic going on there. and I doubt such a thing would be sold in stores or even made regularly.

Question: Do you know what a Martial Script is? Do you have Tome of Battle? It doesn't seem like you do.

[elliott20]

true, I don't own the book. I was merely going on the description that Fax_Celestis gave and giving my opinion on it. If there is in fact an existing item as such, my apologies.

But I still maintain my opinion of it.

[Fax Celestis]

What a martial script does is give you temporary knowledge of one maneuver, which you can use once before it goes away. This would alter it so that it gives you temporary knowledge and use of a feat, or temporary knowledge of one maneuver.

[SpiderBrigade]

Given the kinds of things you can do with Maneuvers, I don't see that gaining a bonus fighter feat for a few rounds to be massively overpowered. The only factor is price, and figuring out how much it costs for different feats. Something like Power Attack shouldn't be as expensive as Greater Weapon Specialization, for instance. Maybe a feat with no prereqs is priced as a 1st-level maneuver, with each prereq feat adding another level? So PA counts as 1, but Greater Weapon Spec counts as 4th?

I think it might be interesting to allow stacking of feats. So for instance you could get Spirited Charge and Power Attack as a 4th-level Script.

Obviously you'd need to playtest this heavily, and adjust the costing approprately. Also, figuring out how long the things last would be important - the 1-round-or-less duration of most maneuvers seems like it wouldn't be worth it for a feat, but multiple rounds might get overpowered. Playtesting!

[Fax Celestis]

That's a good point. How do you price one? Minimum qualifying level * (number of prerequisites+1) * Creator's level * 1000?

[Shisumo]

Minimum qualifying level

Half that, rounded down, to a minimum of one - to closer match the costs of equivalent spells and manuevers.

Creator's level

With the caveat that, like spells, the creator can choose to create the scroll at an effective lower than their actual level, down to the minimum level of the feat.

[Fax Celestis]

With the caveat that, like spells, the creator can choose to create the scroll at an effective lower than their actual level, down to the minimum level of the feat.

Correct, but then it will also have a shorter duration.

[X15lm204]

While I do know how it's supposed to work, I can't help but agree with elliot20 on the subject of Martial Spripts being single use items. Sure, I get the role they're supposed to play, but it just doesn't seem justified. With a scroll, the spell is effectively nine-tenths cast before the user even looks at it; all he or she does is activate it and choose the target(s). Nothing about a scroll is intrinsically instructive, though a wizard does know how to reverse-engineer a scroll and learn to cast the spell. A martial script, on the other hand, teaches the user's body and mind how to perform its maneuver. If the knowledge is directly granted like this, even if not conciously understood, why should it fade after use?

[Yuki Akuma]

Hark; I hear the dying screams of catgirls!

It's magic.

[Fax Celestis]

Hark; I hear the dying screams of catgirls!

It's magic.

'xactly. Kill those catgirls. Killem good.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Forget magic. Explain it through psionics and ki. An ancient and powerful swordwizard's thoughts are imbued in the script. It can let the reader tap into the raw potential of the swordwizard that made the script for a small amount of time, granted psionically. When the power fades, so too does the feat.

I like saying swordwizard.

[X15lm204]

I do so love the slaughter of those poor, pathetic catgirls...*sigh of pleasure*

Nowhere does it say that the scribe has to be "ancient and powerful." You only need to be 1st level to make them. Also, Ki != magic != psionics, but I suppose that's just nitpicking . I guess I just really don't like the idea of being able to forget that kind of thing, both because of the rest of the fluff in the book and from my own experience. When I was ten, I took a Tae Kwon Do class, and was spectacularly bad at it. After weeks of frustration, when practicing one particular kick, the instructor came over to me and guided me through the motion very carefully, and for the one and only time I truly got it. It's been six years since then, five and a half years since I quit Tae Kwon Do, and thanks to puberty my body's proportions and strength have changed considerably, but I'm still able to reproduce that motion and understanding well enough to knock my father, who is quite literaly twice my size, on his behind. Maybe I'm misinterprating the flavor text of a martial script, but it seems to me to be something like that, and I am absolutely convinced that someone who has been granted that kind of understanding should not be able to forget it so easily.

Swordwizard is an awesome word, though.

[Dark]

Yeah, but no need for swordwizards. Just use monkish handwaving. Reading the scroll aligns your chi in a way that lets you use this feat. However, using the feat without the proper training will distort your chi again, so that you can't use it for very long.

[Yuki Akuma]

But Martial Scripts aren't psionic. They're... magic. They even have Divination auras!

[Abardam]

Well, the Void Disciple can do it.