Which is worse?

[Tough_Tonka]

Which in do you think is worse? Or which bothers you more?

Players/DMs that don't know the rules of the game, and I'm talking basics like SR and setting spells save DC. Or Players/DMs that know little to nothing about the campaign or campaign setting (ex. playing in Ebberon without knowing what the dragonmarked houses are)?

[Frosty Flake]

Setting, always setting... It's a lot easier to do a quick rundown of the rules and let them pick it up as go than it is to try and remember everything they should know about a campaign world, especially if they've already made a character.

[Druid]

The first one. If they don't even know the basics of play they probably won't know much about the setting. Also, there's nothing wrong with not knowing verry much about a setting, as long as you try to learn a bit before playing.

[Indoril]

Both are equally as bad.

Frosty Flake, your Magus avatar makes me happy.

[RandomNPC]

im going with setting, but i enjoy training players, i even had one DM a few games, he made a maze of riddels with wrong answers opening doors to bad guys, it was fun. But when we got to a casino and someone cast detect magic he goes "ok the bouncer has a hat of disguise, that guys got a -" then i cut him off and told him how the spell works, its not his fault he likes physical combat characters.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

As a DM, I have no problems with teaching new players. Don't remember what to roll? That's okay, it's easy. See, just roll this, and add this and this to it. There you go.

Of course, I have legendary patience. Certainly epic level.

[Monkeyking]

To be honest I would say setting, but that is because my group we have basic tables for everything, and most of the other stuff I know as I seem to have to most of the DMing although one friend has started to pick it up as well which is always nice as I get to play.....

So short answer long, not knowing the setting, or at least the basics of the settings is always annoying....

[starwoof]

I always get annoyed when people dont know the setting. Thats why I dont play forgotten realms, ever, even though I have the book. I just cant read it.

I really dont mind players who dont know rules, but it irks me when the DM dosnt. He/she's supposed to have a very strong grasp of them.

[fireinthedust]

I'm still learning the rules (after 11 years of playing). I thought I was great, and I know how things work, but my experience with actually USING THEM IN ACTION is lacking; it's hard to get a game going. (see "worst game DM'd ever" thread) Not that I don't play, but I'm used to teaching noobs from scratch OR playing with people who don't use the rules well.
That and for most of the time it's been PbP, and low level, so combat is relativly non-complex. High level play I'm not used to, and there are SOOOOOO many variables. I'm good, but I've seen people who blow me away.

That said, setting lack can be great! Especially low-level games, the character never left their village/dwarven citadel/slums/wizard academy. They don't have worldly-knowledge. Everything in the setting is new for them. Ergo it's easier to RP, change the setting, or wow them with little things ("you've never heard of Myth Drannor? Well, sit by the fire, my new friend, and listen well to the stories of this old mage" "what'd you say your name was? Elminster?" "Aye, for what it's worth...")

Eberron is different, as the Last War just ended and everyone is post-traumatic-stress-disorder... but there you have it!

[Fat Daddy]

Actually neither is too bad if the guilty party(ies) are willing and trying to learn. It's the ones that you have to tell the same thing to every week that drive me bonkers. If I have to tell you more than 2 or 3 times, you risk a can o' whoop-ass being opened

[Amphimir Míriel]

As a DM, I have no problems with teaching new players. Don't remember what to roll? That's okay, it's easy. See, just roll this, and add this and this to it. There you go.

Of course, I have legendary patience. Certainly epic level.

You, my friend, are the type of DM that mantains my hope for the hobby...

I for one, always try to play "setting-light" adventures, as it encourages creativity on the part of the players. I tend to be the opposite of the general opinion here as I don't like my players to know more about the setting than they should... ("Actually, I think the Ring of Winter is not in the jungles of Chult, I read that it's actually in...")

Actually, until I found The Kyngdoms campaign setting, I just made up adventures involving the stereotypical village, the stereotypical city, the typical forest, etc...

But this guy Keith Robinson just went and made a "plain vanilla" setting that is interestingly complex but still vanilla enough (elves are elves, orcs are orcs) that everybody can quickly grasp it.

And most importantly, it doesnt have the annoying overpopulation of ultrapowerful NPCs that are simply everywhere (im looking at you Forgotten Realms!).

[Diggorian]

I can forgive newbie players on both counts, but a DM MUST know the rules well.

There are alot of rules, no one's perfect, but dont call me a rules lawyer for using every option I have a right to (like using total defense and moving in a round).

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

None of them really bothers me. New players will pick it up given time, but the DM of course needs some basic level of knowledge.

It is far worse when people think they know the rules and act as rules lawyers when they really should be spending more time reading the PHB cover to cover instead.

[pestilenceawaits]

I think a lack of basic understanding of the rules is the more annoying unless they are new to the game. A guy I play with and have been playing with for many years still can't figure out his spell DCs on his own. Players not knowing the settings aren't bad because the DM can introduce them to the world.

[Spartan_Samuel]

Seeing as how both may be remedied by a quick run down of the general system applied, I will have to base my judgement on a one instance, instantaneous event. In an immediate occurence, not knowing the basic mechanics of your own character is worse than not knowing the world you are in. I say that because if you don't even know how to play your own character, you will never ever reach the point in time where you may interact with the world around you.

[MrNexx]

Which in do you think is worse? Or which bothers you more?

Players/DMs that don't know the rules of the game, and I'm talking basics like SR and setting spells save DC. Or Players/DMs that know little to nothing about the campaign or campaign setting (ex. playing in Ebberon without knowing what the dragonmarked houses are)?

Basic rules, because those don't change. However, I'm fairly tolerant of people who don't know the rules.

[Dan_Hemmens]

The first one, but mostly because it's the most persistent.

Somebody who doesn't understand the setting is usually willing to learn, and will pick stuff up quite quickly, but some people *flatly refuse* to learn the system, and then act like it's somehow your job to compensate for them (or worse, talk about how for them it's all about the *character*).

[Saph]

The first one is much worse in my book, especially for DMs. A DM who has to stop and look up the rules for every single die roll slows the game down to crippling pace. (Just played a session like that on Monday . . . a three round fight against two monsters lasted forty-five minutes.)

I actually quite like it when I'm playing in a setting I don't know very well. That way, when I want to know something, I just ask the DM: "Hey, what does my character know about ____?" When all the players know the setting off by heart, it's much harder to surprise them and the DM has to keep reminding them "no, your character does NOT know every bit of secret knowledge on the continent!"

It's one of the reasons I like Forgotten Realms - it's so big that it's almost impossible for one player to know it all.

- Saph

[Sahegian]

I don't mind either front overly much assuming people are trying and having fun. Knowing all the rules of D&D is not an easy thing. As long as they have the basic down or they are admitting to not knowing everything I'm fine with playing with either sort of person. New books come out fairly regularly and it can be very hard to keep up and that doesn't even mention house rules and homebrews.

When it comes to a character who is optimized across many sources it is confusing no matter who you are. Why do you have a +19 on this roll? Well +4 for x +2 for y +3*2 for z since we are fighting monster Q in environment R and my ring of M grants me a situational bonus then add in the bonus from the bard song and the wizard's buff. If you actually want to check any of that or understand how it works you are digging through 10 different books.

I've only ever seen one player use page numbers and sources on a character sheet. It was extremely helpful for me. If I was unsure of something I could flip right to it and reread the text. Most of my games are more rookie heavy than expert laden, so I suppose I'm just used to having the books out during gameplay. I could see it being annoying if it was not the pace of game you were used to. 45 minutes for a minor battle does seem a bit slow even for my tastes :P

[pestilenceawaits]

I've only ever seen one player use page numbers and sources on a character sheet. It was extremely helpful for me. If I was unsure of something I could flip right to it and reread the text.

I have been playing and Dming for a long time and I just started doing this because I have so many freaking books for 3.5 I can't remember where everything is anymore. it helps a ton to not book and pg number.

[Gamebird]

Not knowing the basic rules is terrible in a DM. It's annoying in a player if the player can't/won't learn them within a reasonable time. If they can learn them, then that's great. I don't mind teaching, if the student learns.

Not knowing the setting is to be expected for my games, since I home-brew. Though after I mention the same aspect of the game world a dozen times or so, and email players about how it affects their character, and pm them about it... well, finally I just banned the druid class altogether. My players weren't "getting it", so I just made it something PCs couldn't take.

[Green Bean]

Neither one is particularily annoying, as long as the players/DMs are honestly trying to learn.

However, I really think that if the DM doesn't know the setting, then there may be a problem (especially is it's homebrew )