warforged battlefist monk build

[ken-do-nim]

We had a monk balance thread a while back, and someone asked if the battlefist balanced them. Well, I thought about, and here's the result.

The battlefist not only can be enchanted, but is considered one size category larger. So here's a monk 12/psionic fist 8. That does 20th level monk damage of 2d10, so the battlefist would do 4d8. Of course this character would have improved natural attack to bring that up to 6d8. Now is where the psionic fist comes in. He does expansion all the time to go from medium to huge-sized. Not only does that make improved trip worthwhile and give him reach, but it takes the battlefist damage from 6d8 to 10d8 (I think)!

So you've got a flurry of +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 for 10d8 each hit, not including strength bonus and a +5 enchantment on the battlefist. Plus at 9th level psionic fist, there's probably some other awesome things you can do with this. So on average that's 4.5 per die from a d8 x 10 = 45 + 5 for the weapon + 8 for strength (assume 16 base, expanded to huge is 20, then +6 belt of strength) = 58 damage per hit.

Whaddya think?

[Rigeld2]

Well, lets put it up against a Balor.

10d8 is average 45 damage. Lets say a +4 str bonus since hes got lots of other stats to look after. So +24x4/+19/+14. (battlefist has haste)

.5*58+.5*58+.5*58+.5*58+.2*58+.05*58=29*4+12+3=131 damage vs an AC 35 creature.

Power Attacking Shock Trooper with a Greatsword.
2d6 averages to 7 damage. Only really needs to worry about STR, so item, tome, levels gives a 34, which is +12, and a +5 greatsword.

+37/+37/+32/+27/+22
.95*64+.95*64+.85*64+.55*64+.4*64=122+54+26=202

Now... the Balor also has DR 15. That subtracts 75 damage from the Fighter, making his 127. The monks? 43 damage, if every attack did more than 15 damage, which isnt likely.

[Darrin]

10d8 is average 40 damage.

Actually, it's 45. Might want to add Superior Unarmed Strike, possibly a Monk's Belt.

[Rigeld2]

Actually, it's 45. Might want to add Superior Unarmed Strike, possibly a Monk's Belt.

Monk unarmed damage doesnt go above level 20, so neither one will help. And raising it to 45 wont help at all either - the DR will eat it up.

[Ramza00]

How would you price the battlefist for enchantments over +1? It says you can get better gauntlets, but doesn't list the price? I am sure every monk would gladly choose shadow striking (to avoid dr based off alingment and metal) for a +3 cost.

[ken-do-nim]

Well, lets put it up against a Balor.

10d8 is average 45 damage. Lets say a +4 str bonus since hes got lots of other stats to look after. So +24x4/+19/+14. (battlefist has haste)

.5*58+.5*58+.5*58+.5*58+.2*58+.05*58=29*4+12+3=131 damage vs an AC 35 creature.

Power Attacking Shock Trooper with a Greatsword.
2d6 averages to 7 damage. Only really needs to worry about STR, so item, tome, levels gives a 34, which is +12, and a +5 greatsword.

+37/+37/+32/+27/+22
.95*64+.95*64+.85*64+.55*64+.4*64=122+54+26=202

Now... the Balor also has DR 15. That subtracts 75 damage from the Fighter, making his 127. The monks? 43 damage, if every attack did more than 15 damage, which isnt likely.

I don't have the time to redo the calculations, but I want to point out:
1. The balor has ac39 with unholy aura.
2. The battlefist and the greatsword can both be holy cold-iron forged, so we can take damage reduction out of the equation, plus add 2d6 per hit of holy damage.
3. If I'm not mistaken, shock trooper allows you to switch power attack penalty from your to hit roll to your armor class. So by not lowering your to hit, you are leaving your defenses wide open. If the balor has minions, sure you may take out the balor with your 202 (+ holy damage), but the minions will destroy you. They can power attack themselves for full, knowing your armor class is nothing. So now this comparison becomes situational. The battlefist monk can always do the numbers we are computing above, whereas the fighter with greatsword will only be able to shock troop in the right situation.

[Artanis]

We had a monk balance thread a while back, and someone asked if the battlefist balanced them. Well, I thought about, and here's the result.

The battlefist not only can be enchanted, but is considered one size category larger. So here's a monk 12/psionic fist 8. That does 20th level monk damage of 2d10, so the battlefist would do 4d8. Of course this character would have improved natural attack to bring that up to 6d8. Now is where the psionic fist comes in. He does expansion all the time to go from medium to huge-sized. Not only does that make improved trip worthwhile and give him reach, but it takes the battlefist damage from 6d8 to 10d8 (I think)!

So you've got a flurry of +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 for 10d8 each hit, not including strength bonus and a +5 enchantment on the battlefist. Plus at 9th level psionic fist, there's probably some other awesome things you can do with this. So on average that's 4.5 per die from a d8 x 10 = 45 + 5 for the weapon + 8 for strength (assume 16 base, expanded to huge is 20, then +6 belt of strength) = 58 damage per hit.

Whaddya think?

Psionic Fist is actually what got me to buckle down and really study the numbers to ask the question in the first place. As far as I can tell, Psionic Lion's Charge will let the Monk charge AND flurry in the same turn. Add in the Ebberon feats that let you deal extra damage on a charge (gets up to +4d6, IIRC), and to my untrained eye, it looked like you could lay a whole ton of hurt on something the instant you got within 180 feet of it.

The key word in all this is "untrained". I'm really bad at this sort of thing (Improved Natural Attack and Expansion never even occurred to me ), so I needed expert advice before deciding that I'd found a neat combo after all


Edit: Just thought of something else: being a Warforged might serve to reduce MAD slightly as well. Because of the enchantability of their torso, a level 20 Warforged Monk only needs another 4AC from Wisdom or 3AC from elsewhere to catch up to the best armor a Fighter can buy (4 Monk + 2 Warforged - 1 Warforged WIS penalty = 5 vs. 9 for "normal" armor). So it looks like the Warforged wouldn't need Dex nearly as much as a "normal" Monk to bring his AC up to par with the Fighter. Hell, taking Force Screen with one of the Psionic Fist levels would do the trick.

How would you price the battlefist for enchantments over +1? It says you can get better gauntlets, but doesn't list the price? I am sure every monk would gladly choose shadow striking (to avoid dr based off alingment and metal) for a +3 cost.

The "basic" (+1) Battlefist is, IIRC, 2600gp. According to the SRD, a +1 enchant costs 2000gp. So I'd say it would work out to be just like any other weapon with a base cost of 600 for the masterwork version. From there, just use the chart like you would any other weapon.

[ken-do-nim]

Psionic Fist is actually what got me to buckle down and really study the numbers to ask the question in the first place. As far as I can tell, Psionic Lion's Charge will let the Monk charge AND flurry in the same turn. Add in the Ebberon feats that let you deal extra damage on a charge (gets up to +4d6, IIRC), and to my untrained eye, it looked like you could lay a whole ton of hurt on something the instant you got within 180 feet of it.

The key word in all this is "untrained". I'm really bad at this sort of thing (Improved Natural Attack and Expansion never even occurred to me ), so I needed expert advice before deciding that I'd found a neat combo after all

The extra damage from powerful charge, greater powerful charge, flying kick, and similar feats would only be added to the first attack in the pounce. I can't remember where I read that, but I know I did.

All the same, psionic lion's charge is amazing. Check out this other part of it: For every additional power point you spend, each of your attacks after a charge in the current round gains a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the number of additional points spent. So with a hasted flurry at the end of the charge ... it can really add up! And there's no reason this character couldn't have power attack/leap attack/shock trooper either.

In fact, with my monk 12/psionic fist 8 build, this character gets up to 4th level psychic warrior powers and there are some other awesome ones:
- vampiric blade, if the DM allows it to affect the battlefist (I would). Yes, I just did 45 base damage with my weapon, so that's 23 back please.
- empathic feedback, if you hit me, you take damage. Great for shock troopers.
- mental barrier/force screen , improve your ac
- dimension slide, put yourself into position so you can charge again.

[Rigeld2]

and there are standard action charges

Only if you are only able to make a standard action (Zombies, Slowed, etc.). If you have a full action available, you cannot do a partial charge.

Yeah, the Shock Trooper Fighter is vulnerable. Thats why he depends on the rest of the party to lock down the minions before he puts his thang down.

BTW, I didnt count in any of the other ways to increase power attack return that multiplies his damage, not just adds to it.

[Rigeld2]

1. The balor has ac39 with unholy aura.

Worse for the monk.
2. The battlefist and the greatsword can both be holy cold-iron forged, so we can take damage reduction out of the equation, plus add 2d6 per hit of holy damage.[/quote]
Mostly cancels out, tho the monk gains some.

[Yakk]

First, get the offhand attack chain.

Use a spiked chain for your "offhand" attacks. (Finessable! Plus reach and works well with monk bonus feats.)

Get shock trooper, do a -15 AC shock trooper attack.
+2 strength damage (why not, it is cheap), +5 enchantment, 2d6 holy damage

Now you are (from BaB only)
+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3 @ 78 average damage (85.1 including crits)
plus
+13/+8/+3 @ 52 average damage (56.5 including crits)

+5 enchantment +12 dex to hit: +17 to hit on top of that

+30x4/+25/+20 to hit @ 85.1
+30/+25/+20 @ 56.5 average damage

VS any AC from 32 to 39, this works out to:

301.86 damage plus 34.005 per AC under 39.

(Including the 19x2 criticals on both weapons).

(@39 AC, you get .1+.35+.6*4=2.85 fist hits and .1+.35+.6=1.05 chain attacks.

Each point of power attack thus deals 5.445 extra damage -- so 81.675 of this is due to power attack damage.

Each AC under that adds .30 fist hits and .15 chain hits down to 32 AC, so 34.005 damage. Of that 0.66 of it is power attack damage, so 9.9 per point of AC from the 15 point shock trooper.)

We just beat D&D. Hmm, I did forget to scale up the spiked chain damage with all that character growth... Oh well. :)

To compare on even footing, if we are fighting against the 35 AC balor mentioned before, that is 437.88 from the monk on average per round.

Plus, because the monk is attacking 9 times per round, the variance will probably be tighter than the fighter's 5 attacks.

Lastly, the monk only burned 15 AC while the fighter burned 20 AC, and monks with 34 dex tend to have better AC than fighters anyhow (~46 AC before any cheese).

[ken-do-nim]

First, get the offhand attack chain.

Use a spiked chain for your "offhand" attacks. (Finessable! Plus reach and works well with monk bonus feats.)

Are you sure a monk can take the two-weapon fighting feat tree and still flurry if the off-hand weapon is a non-monk weapon? I've only heard it done with quarterstaff.

Edit: I'm also surprised the numbers come out higher. I would have thought the -2 penalty on all the monk's battlefist attacks would have lowered the chances of hitting ac 39 so much that it wouldn't be worth it.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Are you sure a monk can take the two-weapon fighting feat tree and still flurry if the off-hand weapon is a non-monk weapon? I've only heard it done with quarterstaff.

Absolutely

[Yakk]

And did I mention the last thing about that build?

You are a monk with a spiked chain. I mean, how cool is that?

Ahum.

Note that the spiked chain cheese isn't as good as you might think. It only gives the monk another ~10 damage at 39 AC. However, it also grants ~+10 damage over non-spiked chain for every AC under 39 AC.

Plus it gives the monk extra reach/trip/disarm options and a good weapon to use on a charge.

The largest difference is that I gave my monk weapon finesse, while Rig didn't. With this build, go for dex whole hog.

[ken-do-nim]

And did I mention the last thing about that build?

You are a monk with a spiked chain. I mean, how cool is that?

Ahum.

That is very, very cool. Ever seen the movie Iron Monkey? By the same folks who did Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon but I liked this one better. Anyway, one of the main characters used a chain (I don't think it was spiked) and the way it came out of his sleeve - very cool. I hereby say we support spiked chain as a monk weapon. :-)

[ken-do-nim]

Lastly, the monk only burned 15 AC while the fighter burned 20 AC, and monks with 34 dex tend to have better AC than fighters anyhow (~46 AC before any cheese).

Oh and one other way cool thing about this build. The monk/psionic fist has greater concealing amorpha to give him a 50% miss chance. So when he drains his armor class using shock trooper, he shrugs because ac isn't as important.

Yay! Breaking D&D is fun! All hail the warforged battlefist/spiked-chain wielding power shock troop attacking monk/psionic fist!

Edit: Bubble burst. Spiked chain is a two-handed weapon. Can't use it with the battlefist.

[Yakk]

Does the Battlefist disallow using two handed weapons? Is it finessable? (I don't have the sourcebook)

A reference to it claims that it boosts monk unarmed damage -- which does not require using a particular limb. A monk can be using a 2H weapon and do unarmed damage using hit feet/head/nose.

[ken-do-nim]

Does the Battlefist disallow using two handed weapons? Is it finessable? (I don't have the sourcebook)

A reference to it claims that it boosts monk unarmed damage -- which does not require using a particular limb. A monk can be using a 2H weapon and do unarmed damage using hit feet/head/nose.

The warforged actually removes his hand and wrist, and plugs the battlefist into his forearm stump. Not only can he therefore not use a two-handed weapon, he loses a ring slot and I'm not sure if climb speed is affected but it should be.

Edit: I suppose if the warforged wants two-weapon fighting, he could always get a second battlefist :-) Who actually needs to pick things up, anyway?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Any sensible ruling would require you to use the arm with the Battlefist attached to benefit from the increased damage.

Edit: You could always see if the DM would allow a Battlefoot or Battleknee at an increased cost.

[Rigeld2]

First, get the offhand attack chain.

Use a spiked chain for your "offhand" attacks. (Finessable! Plus reach and works well with monk bonus feats.)

Spiked Chain is a two handed weapon, so you cant use it with a Battlefist afaik. Also, you cannot flurry if youre using a non monk weapon.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).

[Khantalas]

See, the illustration in ECS shows the battlefist as an open hand. Does it really prevent a warforged from wearing a ring? It is reasonable to say he can't use two-handed weapon, since the gauntlet is huge.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

See, the illustration in ECS shows the battlefist as an open hand. Does it really prevent a warforged from wearing a ring? It is reasonable to say he can't use two-handed weapon, since the gauntlet is huge.

The components take up a body slot as a magic item in a similar place. Gauntlets/Gloves would be the one in this case, not rings.

In the description there is not any restrictions on the use of the hand. (Other arm-attachments does)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Spiked Chain is a two handed weapon, so you cant use it with a Battlefist afaik. Also, you cannot flurry if youre using a non monk weapon.

You can flurry, but you cannot use the non-monk weapon in the flurry.
You could, however, flurry with monk weapons and Unarmed Strikes and use a non-Monk weapon as an off-hand attack with TWF.

[Yakk]

And an off-hand attack with a two-handed weapon does 2x damage on a power attack.

But, you can do your monk attack sequence, then quickdraw your spiked chain (free action) and continue your attack sequence using the spiked chain as offhand attacks.

But, as noted, most of the damage boost comes from using Weapon Finess on the Unarmed Attack, and making a dex-monk.

[Khantalas]

I always house rule that a monk can use her Dex modifier in place of her Str modifier with attack rolls.

It does make sense, as a monk would have to waste a feat to be both able to hit better and avoid attacks - and it certainly doesn't overpower the monk. It's just an extra feat at 3.0, and not even that at 3.5.

[ken-do-nim]

And an off-hand attack with a two-handed weapon does 2x damage on a power attack.

But, you can do your monk attack sequence, then quickdraw your spiked chain (free action) and continue your attack sequence using the spiked chain as offhand attacks.

But, as noted, most of the damage boost comes from using Weapon Finess on the Unarmed Attack, and making a dex-monk.

Before you throw quickdraw into the mix, let's keep track of our feats, because I think we are running out. We've got the 1,3,6,9,12,15,18 levels for 7 feats. The following are already used up: improved natural attack, wild talent, power attack, shock trooper. That leaves us with 3, and remember at 1st level a character doesn't qualify for many. I don't have it in front of me, but I also think shock trooper takes improved bull rush as a prereq. So now we are left with 2. Rather than go the two-weapon fighting route, I might go with leap attack and ... perhaps improved initiative for the 1st level feat?

Gosh, I can't wait to see the psionic lion's charge full flurry with leap attack/shock troop on.

[Yakk]

Is there any way to make this a 7/8 monk/psimonk 5 fighter (or other full-bab class) build?

It would give you an extra iterative attack, and a monk's belt makes up for the lost damage.

[Ramza00]

Is there any way to make this a 7/8 monk/psimonk 5 fighter (or other full-bab class) build?

It would give you an extra iterative attack, and a monk's belt makes up for the lost damage.

If you are in forgotten realms shou disciple. Its a 5 lvl class advances flurry, monk damage, 2 bonus feats, and is full bab. Best yet it allows you to flurry with any martial weapon.

[Yakk]

You don't need monk damage or flurry silly. A monk's belt will give you the 5 levels of monk H2H progression you missed.

[Ramza00]

Well usually you use Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/X 9 where X is a full bab prc. You already have Monk 11 damage, so a monk's belt+superior unarmed strike means you don't need to worry anymore about what the X prc is. It can be any warrior prc.