Turn undead with an undead cleric

[Captain van der Decken]

Not just a by the RAW question-

Does it work? I can't remeber seeing anything saying it wouldn't, but it doesn't quite make sense. Would you get rebuke undead instead, or what?

[pestilenceawaits]

I have a risen martyr (BoED) cleric right now (deathless) that can turn undead. Deathless is similar but not exactly the same as undead.

[Maclav]

Yes, but you are likely to turn your self. :)

[Roderick_BR]

Most intelligent undead creatures usually becomes evil (vampire, lich, for example), so they rebuke undead if they have cleric levels.

[Captain van der Decken]

@pestilenceawaits
Well, yeah. They're animated by positive energy. My problem was with undead channelling it, though.

Think of it as special circumstances. Well, I'm thinking of a ghost, anyway.

[pestilenceawaits]

I would think that they may be able to channel it but it hurts them in some way then.

[Douglas]

By RAW, a good undead using Turn Undead works perfectly. If your turning check is low enough, it even works as it normally would for a living cleric of your level. If your turning check is high enough to turn an undead with the same hit dice as you (including any turn resistance you might have), however, things get wierd.

First, you are the closest turnable undead. If your turning damage is not enough to turn yourself, then nothing happens; your turn attempt was just completely wasted. If it is, then you have to go into the effects of turning:

1) Turned undead flee from you by the best and fastest means available to them.
This is obviously not possible, so:

2) If they cannot flee, they cower (giving any attack rolls against them a +2 bonus).
So, you're cowering. But...

3) If you approach within 10 feet of them, however, they overcome being turned and act normally. (You can stand within 10 feet without breaking the turning effect—you just can’t approach them.)
Hmm, well, I'm afraid I can't think of any way to approach yourself instead of constantly staying at 0 distance away, so I'm afraid you're stuck cowering for the full duration of turning, which is 10 rounds.

Turning damage beyond that needed to turn yourself goes towards turning nearby undead, just as it would for a living cleric.

[Khantalas]

Well, no undead accidentally rebuke themselves as far as I know, so why should they turn themselves instead?

Now if there was a way to command yourself...

[The White Knight]

Seems pretty reasonable to me that a cleric should be exempt from their own turning/rebuking, even if they are undead. After all, I don't imagine it's your deity/cause's will to debilitate you.

EDIT: Unless, somehow, you were a follower of Pelor, Ehlonna, or the likes. That's a different story :P

[Narmoth]

I would say it depend on the dm: if the deity allows the cleric to channel his divine energy through an undead wessel, it is ok (maybee some penalities, like destroy undead harming also the cleric, but much less), if the deity is strongly opposed to undead, the cleric might loose all of his spells also.

[Douglas]

A house rule that turn undead cannot affect the person using it would not be unreasonable imo, but it would be a house rule. The RAW has no such exception that I am aware of (I suppose one might be in Libris Mortis), so unless someone can point out where it says otherwise, my post above is how it works according to the RAW.

[Maclav]

By RAW you would turn (or rebuke) your self. But any game where an unread would be allowed to channel positive energy.. a house rule wouldn't be to far fetched. :)

[The White Knight]

Blast, I was hoping the Mummy Lord entry in the MM would shed some light on the matter since it has Cleric levels (and thus the ability to rebuke undead), but no such luck. Scouring Libris Mortis now.

EDIT: hmmm, nothing seems to be explicitly stated, although there is a "good lich" variant section that grants such liches the ability to turn undead - with no clause about the ability's effect on the user. This (among some other minor things throughout the book) leads me to believe that it was intended to be completely harmless to the person performing the turning.

RE-EDIT: Wait, those good liches are also immune to turning by good creatures (IE, themselves). So there goes that particular argument.

[Talyn]

Well, the descriptions of the vampire and ghost template state that if the original creature could turn undead, they now rebuke instead.

Unless your power comes from, as was mentioned before, a deity like Pelor or Ehlonna, who are fundamentally opposed to the very existence of undead - in which case, you'd better switch gods if you want any of your clerical abilities and spells to work!

[JellyPooga]

I vaguely remember seeing somewhere (possibly Libris Mortis, but maybe not) that a cleric that becomes undead always rebukes undead (and spont. casts inflict), regardless of their previous affiliations - unless otherwise noted (like with the good lich varient). This might be a result of their usually turning evil by becoming undead though...

From a fluff p.o.v. an undead cleric would probably have a certain amount of trouble trying to channel positive energy, considering their innate connection to the negative material plane. Possibly making for an interesting roleplaying situation in which the cleric is trying to keep the opposing forces within him (positive/negative energy) in balance...and from ripping him/herself apart because of it.

If I were DM-ing a game in which someone wanted to play an Undead cleric with Turn Undead, I'd probably allow it (with no in-game penalties) on the proviso that they implicitly roleplay a kind of internal struggle going on between their nature and their vocation (with the associated XP rewards and penalties that go with roleplaying in d&d).

[The White Knight]

There's a sample ghost in Libris Mortis that turns undead instead of rebuking, actually.

[Mewtarthio]

Well, undead clerics don't rebuke themselves, do they?

[Aximili]

Well, undead clerics don't rebuke themselves, do they?

That's the problem. Technicly, they sould. But that's certainly not the intention of the guys at wizards.

Does anyone know if this question ever poped up in the ask wizards?

[SDF]

If I were DM I would solve it by requiring spellcraft checks to not affect yourself. That's just me.

[Maltrich]

If I were your DM, I think it would depend on your deity... Good or nature deities that oppose the existence of Undead would refuse to grant you powers until you somehow removed your undead-ness, so a deity-change might be in order.

If your deity had no such feelings, I would probably grant you immunity to your own turning attempts, and any made by clerics of the same deity.

[Arbitrarity]

I'm thinking... no.

Although, I did play NWN, and I still remember Aribeth "I'm surprised I don't run away from myself when I turn undead" (or something like that) :).

[Aximili]

Although, I did play NWN, and I still remember Aribeth "I'm surprised I don't run away from myself when I turn undead" (or something like that) :).

She actually says that?!
I should have finished playing that game.

[Divides]

@pestilenceawaits
Well, yeah. They're animated by positive energy. My problem was with undead channelling it, though.

Think of it as special circumstances. Well, I'm thinking of a ghost, anyway.

Why not? A living cleric can channel negative energy to rebuke/bolster undead...

[Gamebird]

Undead clerics do not turn or rebuke themselves. You must have line of effect to the targets of turning. Line effects don't include the square you're standing in (otherwise, all Lightning Bolt spells would damage the caster).

Besides, it's stupid.

As for whether they take damage from channeling positive energy, that's also dumb. Living casters don't take damage from casting inflict spells or channeling negative energy while rebuking undead. Why would an undead caster/turner have a problem with cures or turning, using positive energy?

[Divides]

That's the problem. Technicly, they sould. But that's certainly not the intention of the guys at wizards.

Does anyone know if this question ever poped up in the ask wizards?

Well, to be fair, I don't think it'd be the first case where something wasn't RAW, but was clearly supposed to be assumed by "any sane DM," anyway.

That said, I can certainly see an undead that channels positive energy (or a deathless that channels negative energy >.>) roleplaying physical discomfort every time they turn undead (/deathless). Just works out as yet another way for an already overly-gritty character concept to RP more "angst," really :-p.

[Closet_Skeleton]

An undead would have no problem using Rebuke Undead. The only problem is that an undead turning undead (a power specifically stated as involving positive energy) should be the equivelant of a human pouring acid on himself.

You could just say that all good undead become deathless. In fact the Ghost should probably be made deathless since they aren't really undead, they're dead. The Curst from Monsters of Faerun that have a special rule which says positive energy heals them should be made deathless as well.

In a Warcraft d20 book there's an alternative Lich template that gets a power called "turn living" and characters who normally turn undead can use their power to "bolster living" like a character who can rebuke undead can "bolster undead".

[Khantalas]

Well, a living creature channeling negative energy via rebuke undead should be pouring acid over itself, then.

[Dausuul]

An undead would have no problem using Rebuke Undead. The only problem is that an undead turning undead (a power specifically stated as involving positive energy) should be the equivelant of a human pouring acid on himself.

Actually, it's the equivalent of a human pouring negative energy on himself.

Like, say, an evil cleric rebuking undead.

If you're an evil cleric, your god grants you the power to channel negative energy without ill effect to yourself. Likewise, an undead with the power to turn undead would presumably have the power to channel positive energy without ill effect. (On the other hand, just as the evil cleric is still subject to negative energy wielded by other creatures, the undead would remain subject to positive energy from other sources.)

I could see a ghost cleric being able to turn other undead.