[Traits] Anti-Social

[mikeejimbo]

So, I was thinking about how Charisma is defined as "force of personality" and how, even if you have a lot of personality, you might not get on well with people. I was, specifically, thinking about myself. A friend of mine (who also plays D&D) said my "real life" charisma was quite high, but I never thought I was that good at dealing with people. But I did think that I have a lot of personality. I decided that maybe I have a flaw or trait that negated my charisma modifier (all tongue-in-cheek of course) but I couldn't find any applicable in the SRD. So I decided to make some.

Not that all of these are bonuses and penalties, not rank modifiers. The exception is in Eccentric, which permanently increases your Charisma.

Plain
You are not beautiful or memorable in any way. Your plainness does help you blend in, but people generally don't pay much attention to you.
Benefit
You get a +2 to disguise.
Drawback
You get a -2 to all other charisma-based skills, except Handle Animal and Use Magic Device.

Ugly
You're ugly. Perhaps deformed or scarred, through birth or accident, or maybe just naturally ugly.
Benefit
You get a +2 to intimidate.
Drawback
You have a -2 to all other charisma skills except disguise, which is at -4, and Use Magic Device.

Shy
You don't deal well with other people. Perhaps you're slightly afraid of rejection. You prefer to devote yourself to other things.
Benefit
You get a +4 to a non-charisma skill of your choice, Handle Animal or Use Magic Device.
Drawback
You get a -4 to all charisma-based skills, except Handle Animal and Use Magic Device.

Eccentric
You have a lot of personality. Too much for some people.
Benefit
You get a +2 to Charisma
Drawback
You get a -12 to all charisma-based skills, except Handle Animal and Use Magic Device.

Animal Sympathy
You don't get people, but you like animals and they like you.
Benefit
You get a +2 circumstance bonus to skill checks when dealing with animals (including Ride and similar checks.)
Drawback
You get a -2 penalty to skill checks when dealing with sapient creatures.

The idea behind these is that someone who wants to have a lot of force of personality, but not be a sociable character, will take one of these. Most likely, it would be overpowered if someone who doesn't have a lot of personality takes one.

I could see Sorcerers, Clerics and Paladins all possibly taking this, given that they need charisma but might not be the talker.

I'm considering a prerequisite of Cha 14+, with that in mind.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I so have the Eccentric trait.

[Neon Knight]

These are cool.

[Maglor_Grubb]

I so have the Eccentric trait.

Absolutely, and loving it.

[Indon]

I think -6 is _way_ too much for the eccentric trait. 2-4 would be more reasonable.

I feel that simply having good charisma and no ranks in conversation skills does most of the work of having force of personality without being personable, though.

[Captain van der Decken]

I think -6 is _way_ too much for the eccentric trait. 2-4 would be more reasonable.

I was thinking it was a little overpowered. Why shouldn't you take it, as a sorcerer? Especially if you aren't planning to put ranks in social skills.

[mikeejimbo]

I was thinking it was a little overpowered. Why shouldn't you take it, as a sorcerer? Especially if you aren't planning to put ranks in social skills.

Heheh, I'd be willing to make it up to -12.

And yeah, although having a high charisma and no ranks in social skills would have a similar effect, then we wouldn't have Eccentric people.

[Winged One]

Shy is a bit weak. -4 to a whole range of skills in exchange for +2 to one single skill? I'd take it for flavor for some concepts, but it might be a good idea to change it to +2 to all the skills based off of one chosen ability that isn't CHA, or +4 to one skill.

[mikeejimbo]

Shy is a bit weak. -4 to a whole range of skills in exchange for +2 to one single skill? I'd take it for flavor for some concepts, but it might be a good idea to change it to +2 to all the skills based off of one chosen ability that isn't CHA, or +4 to one skill.

While I like the idea of giving them a bonus to a range of skills, I thought people would tend to feel that that's overpowered, since no one places any stock in social skills.

[Simius]

Actually, having very low social skills could hurt quite a lot if the Dm wants it to. Think about the PC trying to warn a city about a nearby army, but nobody believing him. Or the shopkeeper charging a little more because he doesn't like the look on the PC's face. Even being completely unable to tell a plausible lie could turn out rather painfully.

Aside from that, I really like these traits. And I agree that Shy might be a little underpowered.

[mikeejimbo]

Actually, having very low social skills could hurt quite a lot if the Dm wants it to. Think about the PC trying to warn a city about a nearby army, but nobody believing him. Or the shopkeeper charging a little more because he doesn't like the look on the PC's face. Even being completely unable to tell a plausible lie could turn out rather painfully.

Yeah, but the problem there is that no one will take them in a campaign where they know there won't be much social interaction, and they'll abuse them in a campaign where there is.

I still like them conceptually.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Ugly
You're ugly. Perhaps deformed or scarred, through birth or accident, or maybe just naturally ugly.
Benefit
You use strength for intimidate, and get a +2 to it.
Drawback
You have a -2 to all other charisma skills except disguise, which is at -4

Strength to Intimidate? I understand the point of a big person being more scary or a strong person seeming more likely to hurt you, but simply being ugly wouldn't make that change. I would just add a straight +2 or +4 to Intimidate and keep it with Charisma, since an ugly person who can talk circles around you is still extremely intimidating.

[mikeejimbo]

All right, I did change that. And it seems to me that there was something else I was going to add.

I did want to mention that there is a reason a Sorcerer wouldn't take Eccentric. Maybe he wants to play a Sorcerer who is good at talking to people?

[Darkshade]

All right, I did change that. And it seems to me that there was something else I was going to add.

I did want to mention that there is a reason a Sorcerer wouldn't take Eccentric. Maybe he wants to play a Sorcerer who is good at talking to people?

ROFLMAO

yeah i've known many a sorcerer who were good at talking to people
sorcerer: "boom!"
everyone else "aaiieee!!argg! I am dead!"


there is no reason a sorcerer would not take that trait
maybe a beguiler would think twice about it
but not a sorcerer.
no trait should ever give a stat bonus.

here's my recommendation...

Eccentric:
You are somewhat eccentric and many people do not "get you"
Benefit: when dealing with people of your class you get a +2 bonus on all Charisma related skill checks.
Drawback: when dealing with people of any other class you suffer a -3 penalty on all charisma related skill checks


alternatively you could base it off of Caste, Race, Alignment, or any other factor that some people will share with you and many wont.

[Shazzbaa]

I really like the idea behind a lot of these, especially eccentric... though I can see how Eccentric could be abused. :/

I know a guy who's like that; he has a powerful personality, such that people tend to either like him or hate him. We were saying that, if we were to make a character who was like him, we'd have to give said character a lot of Charisma and create a trait for him that was something to the effect of "In any social encounter, there is a 50% chance that your charisma mod will be counted as positive for the purposes of all charisma-based skills, and a 50% chance it will be counted as negative." So his 18 CHA could be a fantastic boon (+4) or a horrible setback (-4).

We never did work out the specifics of it, though.

However, I like these traits; this is the sort of thing I feel like traits were made for -- to create characters that have one application of an ability but not another.

[Captain van der Decken]

yeah i've known many a sorcerer who were good at talking to people
sorcerer: "boom!"
everyone else "aaiieee!!argg! I am dead!"

Umm.. no. A lot of sorcerers are the party's face. You know, because of the whole charisma based thing.

[Darkshade]

Umm.. no. A lot of sorcerers are the party's face. You know, because of the whole charisma based thing.

hmmm depends on how you look at it, you just put it forward in a way tah can prove my point.
Sorcerers become faces "because of the whole charisma based thing." they don't have high charisma so they can be faces.
they have high charismas so they can be uber casters, the whole "social" thing is a SIDE EFFECT, one most sorcerers i've seen balked at, specially since they have precious few skill points and FAR more important skills then diplomacy or bluff that they need. Spellcraft, Concentration, Knowledge ( a number of these equal to their Int bonus usually).
when the only reason someone is a face is BY DEFAULT they are going to have no qualms about boosting the thing THEY care about i.e. their casting stat, at the cost of something that DOES NOT matter to them.

and how much can the party really object?
you know your gonna have a sucky face anyway when the sorcerer is the face by default
just like you know your gonna have a sucky front line fighter (at least at lower levels) when the cleric is the front line fighter by default.

[Darkshade]

I just wanted to add...
does the cleric make a good lookout because hes a wisdom based character?
just because someone has a high stat does not make them good at something, it only makes them suck less at something they suck at anyway.
not to mention that bluff is the only Cha based class skill for Sorcerers. they dont make good diplomats

[Captain van der Decken]

Why? Why can't a sorcerer want diplomacy?

Yes, having a high stat in something makes you better at it. The cleric might be the best lookout in the group.

And a low level cleric can still hold his own in melee.

[Deus Mortus]

Autistic
Logic drives your mind
benefit You gain +4 on all intelligence-based checks
drawback You gain a -10 on Bluff, Diplomacy and Initmidate checks against someone who isn't Autistic

Yes I am autistic myself and if you're offended by this, go buy a sense of humor, because I can laugh about it!

[thehothead]

You can buy them? because if so, I know the perfect birthday present for someone...

[Darkshade]

Why? Why can't a sorcerer want diplomacy?

Yes, having a high stat in something makes you better at it. The cleric might be the best lookout in the group.

And a low level cleric can still hold his own in melee.

since neither spot nor listen are class skills for a cleric they are just plain going to suck at it, just because you have a high stat that just gives you a better then average chance at succeeding against an untrained opponent or an easy DC
the Diplomacy and other social DCs are almost always resisted and whenever you deal with anyone competent the Sorcerer will never succeed, half ranks and a good Cha? not really gonna cut it agains the Bard or Aristocrat with full ranks and a good Cha and synergy bonuses and possibly feat bonuses as well.
if the best you can hope for is being better then people who suck and nothing compared to people who are really good then its a waste of resources, are there 3 or 4 players in the world who would choose not to take that trait and play a diplomatic sorcerer... maybe... but the fact is that a trait should never be so powerful that more then 90% of the people playing a specific class or race would want it. also the point of traits is to make MINOR adjustements not raise stat scores. There is a trait that gives you 1 extra hp per level, IT DOES NOT RAISE YOUR CON SCORE, its cost is to reduce your speed by half! that's pretty severe for only half of what a Con score raise would do, and thats not even a casting stat.

[mikeejimbo]

Autistic
Logic drives your mind
benefit You gain +4 on all intelligence-based checks
drawback You gain a -10 on Bluff, Diplomacy and Initmidate checks against someone who isn't Autistic

Yes I am autistic myself and if you're offended by this, go buy a sense of humor, because I can laugh about it!

I actually considered this, but thought it might be somewhat offensive, so I neglected it. I'm glad you put it in, though.

Also, I'm considering changing Eccentric to something similar to Darkshade's suggestion.

[Deus Mortus]

I could probably also do a lot of other mental disorder's, perhaps for another thread...

[Miles Invictus]

You should clarify which skills receive penalties, since Handle Animal and Use Magic Device are both Charisma-based skills that deal with things outside of sentient-to-sentient interaction. I doubt that your wand of Cure Light Wounds really cares what you look like, after all.

Other than that, I like it.

[mikeejimbo]

You should clarify which skills receive penalties, since Handle Animal and Use Magic Device are both Charisma-based skills that deal with things outside of sentient-to-sentient interaction. I doubt that your wand of Cure Light Wounds really cares what you look like, after all.

Other than that, I like it.

Oh yeah, I didn't think about those. Good catch.

Edit: Not only did I fix that, but I added one that you gave me the idea for, indirectly.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Actually, Handle Animal is sentient-to-sentient interaction. What it is not, and what you meant, is sapient-to-sapient interaction.

[mikeejimbo]

Actually, Handle Animal is sentient-to-sentient interaction. What it is not, and what you meant, is sapient-to-sapient interaction.

Oh yes, I got those mixed up again. Ah, I long for the good old days when we didn't call animals "sentient" because we were anthrocentric...

[Eighth_Seraph]

...since when are animals sentient now? My bio class never notified me of that.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Behold: sentient