Is it just me or do Core cleric feats kinda suck..

[daggaz]

As a few of you know, I am making a melee cleric for a core-only game we are (hopefully) starting soon. Starting at level one.

So far, I'm kinda disappointed with the feats available for my character, especially in the interests of bettering my melee actions. And as there is no divine metamagic in this game, most of the metamagic feats seem a little lackluster to me. (I will take extend spell, and quicken but that won't even be usable for quite a few levels.)

But yeah...melee... hrm... Theres always dodge. One ac vs one opponent. Its ok, I suppose.. could head towards springattack which would be nice BUT you can't spring attack in full plate so meh, whats the point? Whirlwind is fun (and I think doable in fullplate) but its rather feat intensive. And the trip route is also not gonna happen, as I wield a greataxe and it just wouldnt be the right fluff to be a battlefield controller instead of a splitter of heads.

I will be getting weapon focus from my war domain, too bad the rest of that tree is fighter only. Tossing those bonuses on would have been fine by me... I wonder if my DM will allow me to take them at the appropriate levels considering my character is so combat orientated.

Then there's powerattack, which as far as I have read on these forums isn't all that its cracked up to be, leading to cleave and great cleave (more feats that are ok at low levels but quickly become pointless).

So erm...what would YOU do to improve melee-ness? Remember its core-only, no divine metacheese. (I have to take extra turning just to GET turn chances, my charisma is five.) Im also considering the craft wand feat, just to bolster up the healage...

[Rigeld2]

Then there's powerattack, which as far as I have read on these forums isn't all that its cracked up to be

Buh?!

Power Attack ownz. Its like leet yo. 133754u53 and a bag of ch1ps.
(ouch that hurt)
I'd think about Power Attack and look at Improved Sunder... the latter is up to you.

[Yuki Akuma]

Power Attack not all it's cracked up to be?

...What are you talking about? Power Attack is a good feat. Certainly better than, say, Weapon Focus. Which sucks. Taking a domain just for proficiency and Weapon Focus isn't a good idea.

[Bears With Lasers]

Um, Power Attack is the gold standard of melee. It is a must have. Whirlwind is crap. Improved Trip would be worth the feats if you didn't object to it.

Metamagic is good. Quicken Spell is a must for buffing; take it at level 9 (i.e., as soon as you can use it). Improved Initiative is good if you have nothing else to do. Cleave remains viable for a pretty long time in a core game. Craft Wondrous Item is good. Blind-Fight is convenient for core melee types.

For your first level feat, try Improved Initiative; add something like Iron Will if human for a truly great will save. Take Power Attack at 3, Cleave at 6. Alternatively, take Power Attack and Cleave now; you'll be able to use PA next level.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Taking a domain just for proficiency and Weapon Focus isn't a good idea.

It ain't bad for Clerics of Kord. Everyone loves great swords. Magic Vestment and Divine Power as Domain Spells isn't too shabby, either.

[daggaz]

Hmm ok, I must have misread (or scrambled my memory) those posts on powerattack. Thought I heard a lot of people saying it was basically just good for the various trees. Oh and the War domain is mostly for fluff (tho I do snag the use of and focus with the greataxe).

All right then, thanks for the advice guys, will look into it.

(PS would you bother with extra turning? I feel kinda gimped that I cant even use a class ability due to a 5 in charisma. With this feet I go from 3 - 3 + 4 = 4 turning attempts... And if I hit five ranks in Knowledge(religion) I can bring my effective charisma score for turning checks up to -1 instead of -3..

I do have the possibility of taking 7 on int and 12 on charisma... but like i said no divine metamagic so having lots of turns isnt that important, whereas skills are kinda nice (imo). Or I could just dump both charisma and int and keep a +2 for my dex bonus.. feh. Too many choices.

[Saph]

War domain is worth taking. Getting a nice weapon proficiency and +1 to attack is good if you're going to be attacking a lot.

As for the rest, yeah, what they said. Power Attack and Cleave are both great with a 2-handed weapon. And if you're taking some metamagic/item creation feats as well, that probably uses up all your feat slots already.

- Saph

[Ikkitosen]

Extend Spell, Power Attack. Long buffs and hard hits. What more do you want?

[Yuki Akuma]

War domain is worth taking. Getting a nice weapon proficiency and +1 to attack is good if you're going to be attacking a lot.

As for the rest, yeah, what they said. Power Attack and Cleave are both great with a 2-handed weapon. And if you're taking some metamagic/item creation feats as well, that probably uses up all your feat slots already.

- Saph

The weapon proficiency doesn't matter, as a morningstar will do you just fine, especially if you're going to be pumping up your damage with Power Attack. You can wield a morningstar in two hands for the PA 1:2 bonus, or you can wield it in one hand to use a shield or something.

+1 to attack may seem nice at first level, but eventually you're going to wish you'd just taken a better domain...

[Ikkitosen]

I like War - it's flavoursome, and contains some good spells.

Plus many martials weapons are much cooler than a morningstar.

[daggaz]

Like I said Yuki, war domain is mostly for fluff/character concept. But I also get martial proficiency_greataxe as well, so I am pretty happy for that as well. And as I dont get to persist any spells, I am also very happy for the extra slot for divine favor.

[Saph]

The weapon proficiency doesn't matter, as a morningstar will do you just fine, especially if you're going to be pumping up your damage with Power Attack. You can wield a morningstar in two hands for the PA 1:2 bonus, or you can wield it in one hand to use a shield or something.

+1 to attack may seem nice at first level, but eventually you're going to wish you'd just taken a better domain...

Well, there are lots of nice domains, but he did say he wanted a melee cleric.

And I think the War domain is pretty good. The poster is using it to get greataxe proficiency. Compare that to your 2-handed morningstar cleric: he's doing 1d12 damage instead of 1d8, he has a +1 to hit, and he crits for x3 instead of x2. Seems worth it to me, especially if you're going to be hitting things a lot.

- Saph

[Yuki Akuma]

I like War - it's flavoursome, and contains some good spells.

Plus many martials weapons are much cooler than a morningstar.

Hm, let's see...

Morningstars deal 1d8 damage (quite good), that is both blugeoning and piercing (which is better than the longsword's slashing), and has a critical threat range of 1 and a multiplier of 2 (which is worse than the longsword).

You know, I'd say they're about the same.

And greatswords are better than greataxes.

[Ikkitosen]

Hm, let's see...

Morningstars deal 1d8 damage (quite good), that is both blugeoning and piercing (which is better than the longsword's slashing), and has a critical threat range of 1 and a multiplier of 2 (which is worse than the longsword).

You know, I'd say they're about the same.

I believe you have misunderstood my use of the word "cool". It's what makes all the other meleeists laugh at the cleric with his morningstar, despite the nerd's protestations that "it's just as good as your greatsword". Seriously, winning with a cleric is easy enough. Winning with style is what counts.

[Saph]

And greatswords are better than greataxes.

Greataxes are better than your pansy morningstars. :P

Just carry a greataxe and a morningstar for backup. Now you have slashing AND bludgeoning AND piercing. Covers your bases pretty well.

- Saph

[Yuki Akuma]

I believe you have misunderstood my use of the word "cool". It's what makes all the other meleeists laugh at the cleric with his morningstar, despite the nerd's protestations that "it's just as good as your greatsword". Seriously, winning with a cleric is easy enough. Winning with style is what counts.

It's not as good as a greatsword. But then, it's a one-handed weapon. It's about as good as a longsword, also a one-handed weapon.

I fail to see what is so innately un-cool about a spikey ball on a stick compared to a sharpened length of metal.

[Ikkitosen]

I fail to see what is so innately un-cool about a spikey ball on a stick compared to a sharpened length of metal.

You can play the cleric then

[Yuki Akuma]

You can play the cleric then

Play the cleric? Sure! I'd love to play the cleric.

Clerics are fun.

[daggaz]

I'm a dwarf. I wouldn't touch a longsword for all the gold in the mountains. I would rather throw rocks at em. And its about character. This is a 65% story 35% fighting campaign. I even wrote up my own god, because the DM shared my shock and disbelief that there is NO decent core god of war for the dwarves, nor is there one he could find that wields a great big GIANT axe. There is that Brightaxe guy... but he wields a greatsword (tell me that is a persisted typo).

Also, as a melee cleric, I think any 2hander is gonna own all over your 1hander not just because of the larger dice, but you get the 1.5x multiplier as well. I mean, you can cast with either, you cant use your other hand for anything else, so whats the point of going 1 handed with a melee cleric as long as you can spare the feat/domain for a nice 2hander?

So far on my feat shopping list I have:

Power Attack
Extend Spell
Craft Wonderous Item
Quicken Spell (taken later when useful, 9th or perhaps 12th)

And looking at:

Cleave (if I can fit it in would be nice)
Craft Wand (maybe, depends how many clw wands we end up burning thru)
Improved Initiative (no dex bonus, would be nice to go first sometimes)
Improved Turning (hate to waste an entire class ability)

[Ikkitosen]

Play the cleric? Sure! I'd love to play the cleric.

Clerics are fun.

2nd ed. reference, when you were stuck with blunt weapon and no-one wanted to play the cleric. Clerics now are great fun

Daggaz: Those first 4 choices seem gravy to me.

[Saph]

I'd take Craft Wondrous Item over Craft Wand. CLW wands are only 750 gp each, which really isn't much. On the other hand, you can use Craft Wondrous Item to make +2 stat-boosting items for 2000 gp and 160 xp each, which is a great deal given how useful they are.

- Saph

[Maclav]

but you get the 1.5x multiplier as well.

You'll get that with a morningstar wielded with 2 hands. All you loose is a bit of crit range compared to a one handed martial weapon. From the great axe, 2 points of average damage but gain some flexibility. After a couple levels, 2 points of average damage is trivial.

Mind you, having a use for the d12 in your dice bag is gold.

[clericwithnogod]

In a core only game, I usually end up taking Improved Initiative as one of my feats at first level when I'm a cleric. Mostly because I get use from it immediately and it's not situational - you get it's benefit every encounter, regardless of what you're facing - and there's just not much else that provides much benefit at first level.

I do like grabbing Greatsword proficiency and weapon focus with the war domain too though.

Something to consider is Quick Draw, particularly if you're using a two-handed weapon. Sometimes it's nice to carry a longspear with reach, drop it and still be able to whack things with your sword. It keeps you from coming up with a move action to take to do so (particularly when you get iterative attacks) and the longspear can give you more opportunities to attack with the AOO chance and/or if your party has 3 or more meleers that get in each other's way. It also lets you throw javelins on the opening round of combat or at other times you can't close. Not a road to ultimate power, but it can help give you something to do all the time that doesn't use up your spells.

[warmachine]

Clerical melee isn't up with the warrior classes but the heavy armour proficiency and d8 HD puts you close. Clerical magic isn't as direct as the arcane but you've still got a bag of tactical tricks, such as Silence, Spiritual Weapon, Daylight and Holy Smite. Better yet, any spells (except domain) that don't look useful can be converted to healing. The cleric class doesn't have raw hitting power but it has endurance and flexibility. The class doesn't need feats. Undead turning is just icing on the cake.

If you want a feat, max out on Concentration, use a light shield rather than heavy and take Combat Casting. Your AC and HP means you can be in the front line and still heal the other warriors (or yourself) or cast tactical spells on the fly as well as plain hitting them.

[Maclav]

If you want a feat, max out on Concentration, use a light shield rather than heavy and take Combat Casting. Your AC and HP means you can be in the front line and still heal the other warriors (or yourself) or cast tactical spells on the fly as well as plain hitting them.

Skill Focus (Concentration) > Combat Casting

[AtomicKitKat]

Meh. Morningstars are the shizznit. Depending on which flavour you use, they could be a longer, spikey mace, or the ball on a chain mini-flail version. What's not cool about that? If you can customise it to switch between both styles... :D

[NullAshton]

What about a cleric with glamored armor to look like priests robes, and a ordinary 'walking stick' that doubles as a quarterstaff?

[clericwithnogod]

Clerical melee isn't up with the warrior classes

/em waits for the server hang induced by the rush of people jumping on the opportunity to type, "CoDzilla!"

[Telonius]

Hold on a sec, 5 in Charisma? What are your other ability scores? If you're looking at a 5 there and a 12 in something else, you might be up for a re-roll due to a negative total stat bonus.

[daggaz]

Ok gonna say it again cuz I heard CodZilla mentioned again.. its CORE only =)
I dont even get persist spell.

I am a dwarf. I am the only tank in the group, except the druid who will have an animal friend and eventual wildshape. We are starting at level one. My god is a homebrew dwarven god of war, domains strength and war, favored weapon greataxe.

I rolled (and must keep) 16 16 15 14 10 7. I went over all the different possibilites on this one and so far I favor
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 15 +2
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 7 -2

Yeah I know this hammers me with my turn undead ability, but its fixable by using skill points (got enough with int 14) to get 5 ranks in knowledge(religion) by level two for the +2 bonus on turn checks and taking extra turning so I actually have turn attempts. Thats if I want to. I think my characters concept of turning undead would just involve dismemberment instead. The other skill points I would probably use for spot/listen and whatever else I could deem useful.

I could mung int instead, but then I end up with real low skill points.. maybe that is better tho. I hate playing stupid characters tho. Its hard. I also love skills.

I've also considered taking 14 in dex just to nab the extra ac point (two at lower levels), up my ref save a tad, and basically get half the improved initiative feat. In this case I would either have 10 in int letting me max conc and work up other skills one at a time, or I could take mediocre stats in both charisma and int. That seems suboptimal to me.


All in all, Im thinking of two things. 1) Having a nice character idea centered around dwarven battles, war, bloodshed, and the gods involved and 2) Being enough of a badass to make up for the fact that our party does not have a full out melee class in it. I want the enemy dead, and I want us to survive so we can revel in it and thank our respective gods.