Silence question

[talltwin36]

Ok the party in one of the games I am running is going to be sneeking into the manor house of the local big baddie. I expect that they will try and use the silence spell on the cleric in the party so that the party can sneek in with out being heard.

Now here is my question. I know that since the cleric is a willing target there is no save needed. How about people (guards) that they run into on the way through the house? I mean let say that there are a couple of guards on the other side of the door and that as the party approaches the door will the guards realize that all of a sudden all sound has stopped? Do they get a will save versus the spell effects?

To me it seems like a loophole that someone can silence themselves and expect the bad guy 15 feet away to suffer from the effects with no saves or anything.

Any comments?

msquared

[Amiria]

No, no loophole. Silence works that way, it is a good spell. Anybody in the emanation is silenced. The guards will notice that something is wrong when they are silenced.

Only if you target it on a creature, that creature gets a saving throw if it is unwilling. The best way to eleminate even that saving throw is to shoot a silenced arrow or bolt into the creature ... or stick a silenced item on it ... maybe with Sovereign Glue.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

The guards will not be affected by the spell, since they are behind a wall/door granting total cover.

Creatures stepping into the affected area (without full cover) will not get a save just like you do not get a save vs. the effect of a light spell shining in a certain area.

Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space

Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

[Raum]

The guards will notice a sudden silence when the AoE moves over their position. And it will silence them...as long as they're in the affected area. This is both a strength and weekness of the spell. While it lets melee types carry a silence field to affect opposing mages, in some ways it makes sneaking harder. Yes it keeps the heavily armored guy quiet but it also gives any guard a moment of warning at the 15' mark.

Also, remember to use Search & Spot...Silence won't help avoid them. :)

[Rigeld2]

The guards will notice a sudden silence when the AoE moves over their position.

But, as a reminder, if the guards are behind a door or wall, they wont get silenced.

[Raum]

Correct. Lord Silvanos pointed that out.

Guards won't necessarily have a lot of warning but it may be enough to keep from being surprised or to step outside the effect and shout an alarm. Depending on the value of what they're guarding (or paranoia of the owner) there may even be mechanical alarms to trip. A simple rope to a bell in a tower at least 35' tall is easy and relatively cheap.

[Ikkitosen]

Yeah, but how many guards will have the Spellcraft ranks to identify the spell? Knowing it's a radius and that you've not just been deafened would need Spellcraft.

[Raum]

Yeah, but how many guards will have the Spellcraft ranks to identify the spell? Knowing it's a radius and that you've not just been deafened would need Spellcraft.

I'd argue they should make the opposite assumption unless they observed some potential cause for deafness. But it doesn't really matter. Any guard not trying to set the alarm off and give warning when he suddenly can't hear anymore (for any reason) deserves the short career he'll have. :)

[Ikkitosen]

I'd argue they should make the opposite assumption unless they observed some potential cause for deafness. But it doesn't really matter. Any guard not trying to set the alarm off and give warning when he suddenly can't hear anymore (for any reason) deserves the short career he'll have. :)

Lol, poor guard.

The trouble is that a lot of people assume that average common NPCs have knowledge of magic. Remember that in the standard campaign world magic is farily rare; most guards won't know much/anything about Silence despite every player knowing the spell inside out. You cheapen Spellcraft if you allow NPCs knowledge of spells like this.

[AtomicKitKat]

You don't need to ID the spell. Just being suddenly silenced while talking to each other would likely make at least one of them panic, and if he runs in fear, he might suddenly find his feet making noise on the floor again and raise the alarm then.

[Ikkitosen]

You don't need to ID the spell. Just being suddenly silenced while talking to each other would likely make at least one of them panic, and if he runs in fear, he might suddenly find his feet making noise on the floor again and raise the alarm then.

Very circumstantial. Might might might, yes.

[Rigeld2]

Remember that in the standard campaign world magic is farily rare; most guards won't know much/anything about Silence despite every player knowing the spell inside out. You cheapen Spellcraft if you allow NPCs knowledge of spells like this.

I absolutely disagree. Any intelligent leader that would hire guards would have, as part of his training, a primer on what to do when magically silenced or deafened (ideally the same thing, run to a rope and pull it to ring a bell). Magic is prevelant enough that there are all these magic items all over the world, there is a NPC class spellcaster, etc. the default world is high magic.

Also, they dont have to identify the spell at all. Just identify the fact that they suddenly cant hear anything. You know... walking or standing around on guard duty, all the normal sounds of the night go absolutely silent. It might take one round before the guard should bolt for backup.

[henebry]

Not in a world where magic effects like silence are fairly cheap & commonplace. I'd imagine it's something covered in Fighter school the week after the unit on Attacks of Opportunity.

[Mewtarthio]

The default campaign setting assumes that every decently-sized town has a magic shop where you can buy swords that burst into flame and attack people of their own accord. I'd have to say that's high-magic.

[Ikkitosen]

So should all these characters in this world be given/take ranks in spellcraft?

Training soldiers I imagine would be like training animals - they can learn a certain amount of things depending on their intelligence/"quality". Not many places will ever be assaulted by magic-wielding foes as compared to more "normal" opponents, so it stands to reason that the first things a soldier learns to deal with are the mundane, common occurrences.

I agree that elite guards might have procedures in place to deal with magic - and in a high magic world you'd see lots of skirmishers compared to rank and file, for instance - but having every guard you use respond perfectly to every spell the PCs use seems closer to DM vs. PCs than interaction with a believeable world.

After all, how much call is there for a Silence spell in everyday life?

[Mewtarthio]

After all, how much call is there for a Silence spell in everyday life?

For the average white-or-blue-collar worker? That's no threat at all. For a security guard? Quite a bit. I imagine such a spell to be like one of those spy tools you see in the movies (decelerators, gas canisters, and the like). Your average Joe has no idea how to work them and will probably never encounter them. Your average security guard will probably have that sort of thing covered.

[Raum]

As others mentioned, they don't need to identify the spell. The results of suddenly not being able to hear should have them calling for backup.

As for knowledge of spells, I'd say the average NPC knows at least as much about spells as today's average civilian knows about military weapons. They won't know much about the rare and powerful other than whispered horror stories. They won't know specific spells, how they're cast, or all the limitations unless the spell in question is fairly common. (Just as most civilians have a rough idea of pistol power and limitations.) They will have some ideas (and some misconceptions) of what spells are available and capable of accomplishing...especially common low level spells.

[Ikkitosen]

As others mentioned, they don't need to identify the spell. The results of suddenly not being able to hear should have them calling for backup.

As for knowledge of spells, I'd say the average NPC knows at least as much about spells as today's average civilian knows about military weapons. They won't know much about the rare and powerful other than whispered horror stories. They won't know specific spells, how they're cast, or all the limitations unless the spell in question is fairly common. (Just as most civilians have a rough idea of pistol power and limitations.) They will have some ideas (and some misconceptions) of what spells are available and capable of accomplishing...especially common low level spells.

Up to 10% of some counties' populations are in the military, and we have the press to spread news around - how much would you know about AWAX without TV, the internet, etc? How many special forces people have you met and discussed the tools of their trade with in a discussion that hasn't been prompted by the media? I'm guessing none.

FAR fewer than 10% of people in D&D are casters. There's no TV to spread images and news about them and their activities. That's why you need special training (Spellcraft) to know anything about them.

It's possible elite guards would be well trained with situational responses like "if everything goes silent, flee and raise the alarm". Most people wouldn't have a clue what's going on - Spellcraft can't be used untrained after all.

[Truwar]

I do not think it is really a matter of special training or spellcraft. A guard might not be able to identify the silence spell but when his word is suddenly plunged into absolute unnatural silence he might think something is wrong. It is not much of a logical leap to go from there to at least reporting the anomaly to his commander.

How would you expect a guard to react if he was suddenly engulfed in a darkness spell? Would he simply stand there because he could not identify the spell with spellcraft? Although silence is a bit more subtle, it would still be VERY noticeable and disturbing, once the guard was enveloped in its radius.

[Ikkitosen]

Indeed, what I disagree with is hair-trigger guards whose instantaneous response to anything amiss is "run and raise the alarm". Can you imagine how many wierd noises the average guy would hear on a shift that might be a shapeshifted druid, or a wizard under gaseous form, or any number of other things? And if every occurrence was acknowledged as such these guard operations would never work.

[barawn]

Can you imagine how many wierd noises the average guy would hear on a shift that might be a shapeshifted druid, or a wizard under gaseous form, or any number of other things?

Sure, but you're not talking about a weird noise here that might be a cat knocking over a vase in the next room or something. You're talking about having all sound stopped around you. This isn't a normal occurance, and they could safely assume something is very, very wrong.

Think about it this way: if you were in a museum, guarding something, and suddenly all the lights went out, wouldn't you immediately raise an alarm of some sort? Doesn't matter that you don't know why the lights went out. It's a major occurance that doesn't normally happen.

[Zeb The Troll]

Situationally dependent, of course, but I could see it going a few ways.

Are the guards involved in something that normally makes noise like conversation or pacing? Or are they slack-abouts prone to being asleep when the PC's come through? I'd say there are at least three possible resolutions.

1.) The guards are conversing or otherwise making/hearing noises they expect to hear when suddenly all is hushed. "Holy smokes, somethin's not right!" And he attempts to raise an alarm.

2.) The guards are in an otherwise quiet setting, standing still at their post, but alert when the ambient noises cease. Have the guards spend the one round to make a listen check with a moderately high DC (I'd say 15, but you be the judge) to see if they notice the lack of ambient sound. If they do, they try to raise an alarm.

3.) The guards are little more than armed louts and are inattentive and may even be asleep on the job. If this is the case, the silence effect would prevent the PC's from waking these very sad guards and all would go according to their plan.

Of course there are other options as well, but I think this covers the basics.

As for who would know about magic and who wouldn't, I'd say that if I were in a world where I knew magic to exist, even if a low magic world, and something unexplained happened I would first blame the wizards and then listen to other reasonable explanations.

[Raum]

Up to 10% of some counties' populations are in the military, and we have the press to spread news around - how much would you know about AWAX without TV, the internet, etc?

Sure, and they have priests, minstrels, and grandma telling a story. I know I'd heard of magic long before I ever played an RPG...and magic doesn't even exist. Mind you, there will be misinformation also...

How many special forces people have you met and discussed the tools of their trade with in a discussion that hasn't been prompted by the media? I'm guessing none.

Well grandfather, dad, and myself were all military so I won't address it from personal experience. But looking back to fairy tales and childrens stories, a large number deal with magic and fighting.

FAR fewer than 10% of people in D&D are casters. There's no TV to spread images and news about them and their activities. That's why you need special training (Spellcraft) to know anything about them.

I agree you need the skill to recognize a spell being cast, but to know they exist and have some idea of a few simple spells' effects? That's basic knowledge. I've heard legends and stories of elves, dragons, trolls, sidhe, and gods without seeing them in mass media.

News is probably spread by minstrels, rumor, priests, and the government. However, it's not really much of a stretch to see other methods of news distribution.

It's possible elite guards would be well trained with situational responses like "if everything goes silent, flee and raise the alarm". Most people wouldn't have a clue what's going on - Spellcraft can't be used untrained after all.

Spellcraft also isn't used for basic knowledge of a spell's existence and it's effects. That would be Knowledge (Arcana) if you really need to roll something...and it can be used untrained.

After all the comments on what Silence can't do, I do feel the need to point out that it is a good and useful spell. It's just not a "win" button. Used tactically it can come close, but planning is a requirement.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

FAR fewer than 10% of people in D&D are casters.

Using the figures from the DMG, a Small Town (populaton 900-2,000) nets about 2.5 to 3% spellcasters (counting adepts, bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, and wizards). And the percentages tend to be larger at the extremes (Thorp and Metropolis).

Anyway, these may not be large figures, but magic does attract attention. Adepts and Clerics tend to serve their communities, so their magic is on display. And Bards thrive of capturing peoples' attention. The common folk may not see magic every day, but they will be aware that it can do a lot of crazy crap. They don't have to know the exact specs on a spell to think, "This is wierd, it must be magic." In fact, it's likely that will be among many folks' first thoughts, the same way many people today think computers can do anything.

That's why you need special training (Spellcraft) to know anything about them.

You need ranks in Spellcraft to know details, not to be aware of magic in general. No different than most people being aware of the existance of Ogres or Hill Giants without the requisite ranks in Knowledge (nature). It's just a fellow without the skill is likely to confuse one for the other.

[SpiderBrigade]

It also really, really depends on what kind of "guarded area" situation we're discussing here.

If it's a noble's estate, or a museum, or similar, the guards are probably here every day, for years. It's their day-to-day job. They probably have dealt with one or two intruders in that time, but not very often. This isn't a situation where they are likely to raise the alarm and put the whole area on high alert because they heard a weird noise. In the case of sudden silence, they'd probably pause to investigate rather than immediately running to the alarm station or whatever.

On the other hand, in a much "tenser" situation (guarding traveling VIPs, vital military secrets, a castle vs. impending invasion, etc) the guards WILL have a hair trigger. They're not afraid to put the base on red alert for a false alarm. They'll also likely have a much better structure for reporting alerts, with guards operating in teams. One or two guards will investigate, another will sound the alarm, etc.

In addition, Zeb has the right idea about the quality of the guards. Royal Special Forces will react differently from local rent-a-watchmen.

Of course drawing these distinctions can get tricky in-game, because there's a fine line between "your silence spell makes you unstoppable" and "The guards are too smart. Your silence spell is completely useless." Either extreme can get a little frustrating.

Hmm, here's a thought: silence doesn't work around corners, right? Would it be possible to build a kind of "Bull's-eye Lantern of Silence?" Basically a small lead box with a controllable opening, through which the Silence effect would emanate? I know it works for the Light spell.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Hmm, here's a thought: silence doesn't work around corners, right? Would it be possible to build a kind of "Bull's-eye Lantern of Silence?"

Don't se why not. Cast silence on a stone, stick the stone in a bullseye lantern, and you're good to go. It would still only emenate to 15 ft., though, so you might want to use Widen Spell or something similar.

[SpiderBrigade]

I was thinking more like, you want it to just cover YOU. So you're all sneaky and silent, but the guards don't get that "hey, I can't hear myself talk" thing.

But for general purposes, yeah. Be a pretty nasty anti-caster strategy, at lowish levels.

[Fax Celestis]

I was thinking more like, you want it to just cover YOU. So you're all sneaky and silent, but the guards don't get that "hey, I can't hear myself talk" thing.

But for general purposes, yeah. Be a pretty nasty anti-caster strategy, at lowish levels.

Panic Buttons out of Complete Scoundrel do just that.

And as forthe bell on a rope 35' in the air? Cast Silence on that too. It'd be much better to give your troops one-charge command-word Alarm items that use the "notify silently" method to someone important.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I was thinking more like, you want it to just cover YOU. So you're all sneaky and silent, but the guards don't get that "hey, I can't hear myself talk" thing.

Ah. O.K.

It would be tricky to figure out the appropriate way to aim such a device. Maybe if you could get the device over your head and pointing downward...

Might be doable.

But for general purposes, yeah. Be a pretty nasty anti-caster strategy, at lowish levels.

Indeed. Makes me wonder why I've never encountered it before.

[Golthur]

Indeed. Makes me wonder why I've never encountered it before.

Yes, it's quite clever - and I also haven't seen it before, even though silence rocks are old hat. Perhaps it's because old school gamers (which mine are) don't quite get that silence is blocked by solid barriers?