The Big Cover Up

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Anyone ever notice that there's spells and items that mention foxes, yet they do not exist in D&D? Really, take a second look. They've never statted out foxes, despite having spells like Fox's Cunning.

Clearly, it's because their whole shtick is that fox's are supposed to be highly intelligent. Thus, the fox is a loophole in their "animals may not have higher then 2 intelligence" idea. If a regular fox were present in a campaign, it could rupture all of reality by rendering intelligence meaningless.

I mean, we can assume that, in D&D at least, this means foxes are much smarter then average people.

[Indoril]

Or we could just stick foxes at 3 Int because that's not too different, and give them lots of skill points.

I mean, I doubt anybody beyond a party of 1st level gnome commoners would have any trouble with a fox at all anyways. It was after all proven in about a half hour long battle between two of my friends that two 1st level gnome warriors are easily bested by a camel.

Though admittedly as a spellcaster, having a fox as a familiar would be cool. Other than that if you're actually using foxes in your campaign then you're so unique among DM's that you could just use another animal's stats and either reduce or improve them as neccessary.

[Sampi]

Meh. Then again, an eagle's Charisma modifier is -2, and a elephant or cat is more charismatic.

[Indoril]

Well yes, Wizards' spells aren't entirely accurate based on the stats of the creature they're named after, but foxes are actually fairly intelligent, and having and Int of 3 as an animal would be...well pretty awesome.

[Saph]

I had a druid in a long-running campaign who had a fox as an animal companion. We just agreed to use the statistics block for a dog.

Trouble was, everyone kept forgetting about the existence of the fox (in V's familiar style) so I finally found a fox ornament and put it on the table in front of the player to remind her.

- Saph

[bosssmiley]

Fox stats - use the ones for a small dog.

And the names of the various buff spells (Bull's Strength, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom) are derived from folkloric characteristics ascribed to these creatures (Athena's owl, Reynard the Fox/Brer Fox, etc.), not from their being smarter, more cunning, more regal than humans.

[Gamebird]

Fox stats in my game:
FOX

Tiny Animal
Hit Dice:
½ d8+1 (3 hp)
Initiative:
+3
Speed:
30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class:
16 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple:
+0/–11
Attack:
Bite +5 melee (1d2-3)
Full Attack:
Bite +5 melee (1d2-3) and 2 claws +1 melee (d2-5)
Space/Reach:
2 ½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks:
—
Special Qualities:
Low-light vision, scent
Saves:
Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities:
Str 5, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Skills:
Balance +3, Climb +3*, Hide +11*, Listen +2, Move Silently +4, Spot +2
Feats:
Weapon FinesseB
Environment:
Any land
Organization:
Solitary, pair or family (3–10)
Challenge Rating:
¼

Foxes weigh from 5 to 20 pounds and have a body about 2 feet long, with a 1 to 2 foot tail.
Skills: Foxes use their Dexterity modifier on Climb checks. They also have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks.



But then again, I have stats for 90 animals in my game, including hummingbirds, frogs and chickens.

[Fhaolan]

I agree, having an actual fox show up in a game would destroy most campaigns. Afterall, it's hard to DM when nearly all the players are drooling.

Oh, you mean the *animal* fox.... Nevermind, then.

It's always somewhat surprised me what normal animals were stated out in the MMs, and which onese weren't. I guess it's 'representative', but it does seem to lean heavily towards North American animals. Wolverine, for example. You can use dog for fox, wolf for hyena, but you couldn't use badger for wolverine? I've dealt with both badgers and wolverines, and while they are different in appearance, they are very similar in behaviour and abilities. The same amount of similary as between a dog and a fox, given that many types of fox can actually climb trees while it is rare to find a dog that can.

[Gamebird]

It's always somewhat surprised me what normal animals were stated out in the MMs, and which onese weren't. I guess it's 'representative', but it does seem to lean heavily towards North American animals. Wolverine, for example. You can use dog for fox, wolf for hyena, but you couldn't use badger for wolverine? I've dealt with both badgers and wolverines, and while they are different in appearance, they are very similar in behaviour and abilities.

Take a good look at the wolverine in the SRD. It's a Medium creature. That means it's as large as an adult human being. Note that if it is advanced a hit die, it is LARGE. As big as a horse, or a bear!

A badger, on the other hand, is Small and stays Small even if advanced. A 4 HD wolverine will kick the ass of a 4 HD bear, mainly due to the size difference.

The wolverine in the SRD is not recognizably a wolverine in reality. A wolverine in reality weighs 30-40 pounds, which is definitely Small, not Medium.

[Maxymiuk]

A fox is Tiny? They're definitely bigger than a cat. I'd say Small, though on the low end of the scale.

[henebry]

WoC capitulates to the Marvel Comics Fan Base.

[Telonius]

Those spells are actually based on the name of the caster that made them. Well, nickname actually. You see, there was a group of six Transmutation experts, all of whom used Polymorph to change into their favorite animal. (That's where they got the nicknames). And each of them decided to focus on a single attribute to improve, and researched a spell on it. Thus, Fox's Cunning, Eagle's Splendor, Cat's Grace, and the rest.

[Caelestion]

These people happened to be called Athena, Zeus, Bast, Ursus, Gast Rhymhi and Reynard, right?

[JadedDM]

Huh, that's weird. We have stats for foxes in 2E. They're in the MM.

[Fhaolan]

A badger, on the other hand, is Small and stays Small even if advanced. A 4 HD wolverine will kick the ass of a 4 HD bear, mainly due to the size difference.

*blink* It never occured to me to check the D&D 'size' for the wolverine. I just assumed...

Quoting the Mythbusters: Well! THAT's your problem!

[Mewtarthio]

That always scared me, too. "Medium"-sized wolverines?!

[FdL]

A dwarf is a medium humanoid, as are humans and half-orcs. They're not all the same size, so it's safe to assume there's a range in size within each category. So saying that a wolverine is a medium-sized animal doesn't mean that it's as big as an adult human being.

[Fax Celestis]

A dwarf is a medium humanoid, as are humans and half-orcs. They're not all the same size, so it's safe to assume there's a range in size within each category. So saying that a wolverine is a medium-sized animal doesn't mean that it's as big as an adult human being.

Medium ranges to as short as about four feet tall, when standing on hind legs. That basically means that a Saint Bernard or similarly large dog would be a medium creature.

That's really...not that big.

[SpiderBrigade]

A dwarf is a medium humanoid, as are humans and half-orcs. They're not all the same size, so it's safe to assume there's a range in size within each category. So saying that a wolverine is a medium-sized animal doesn't mean that it's as big as an adult human being.

Fair enough, but once the bugger becomes Large, it sure as heck is bigger than a human.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Outside of the oft-mentioned odd size, I think Gamebird's stats look pretty good, actually. I might just steal it :)

[clarkvalentine]

When I wrote up an encounter with coyotes in a module, I just used the stats for the small dog on the MM.

The point of the encounter was for a ranger PC to have the opportunity to recruit an animal companion. The coyote was said to be especially clever, so rather than break the rules on Int limits for animals (a no-no for licensed adventures) I gave him three free tricks of the ranger's choice as per the Handle Animal skill. Seemed to work out.

A clever fox could use exactly the same technique.

[Fizban]

Frostburn has stats for an "arctic fox", and suggests them useable as familiars granting a a move silently bonus. According to wikipedia most foxes are about the size of a housecat, so tiny sounds fine. I'd suggest using the stats for a small dog, but with adjustments down to tiny size.

Fox stats in my game:
But then again, I have stats for 90 animals in my game, including hummingbirds, frogs and chickens.

You have to post those, go make a thread now!

[clarkvalentine]

ccording to wikipedia most foxes are about the size of a housecat, so tiny sounds fine.

The foxes I've seen in the wild act more like housecats than they do dogs, so that's probably not far from perfect.

[F.H. Zebedee]

I wonder if you could create some amalgam between dog and cat stats to fairly well represent it. Of course, that stat block up there by gamebird is just about perfect. Maybe one or two touches for flavor, but otherwise pretty darn sweet.

[Fhaolan]

Medium ranges to as short as about four feet tall, when standing on hind legs. That basically means that a Saint Bernard or similarly large dog would be a medium creature.

That's really...not that big.

For a wolverine it is. Wolverines are actually quite a bit smaller in RL. They're just vicious enough that you *think* they're bigger.

And just to continue the size discussion, and bring it back to fox, there is a large range in sizes between the different fox breeds. The largest I've seen in the wild was in Idaho, and that one was about four feet long from tip of nose to tip of tail. The smallest adult was in a zoo and was about a foot and a half long from nose to tail. From what I've read, it sounds like the small breeds are more common. So, I'm happy with Gamebird's stats, but would toss in an 'Advancement' line to be able to build out the bigger, but less common, 'Small' fox breeds.

[Gamebird]

A dwarf is a medium humanoid, as are humans and half-orcs. They're not all the same size, so it's safe to assume there's a range in size within each category. So saying that a wolverine is a medium-sized animal doesn't mean that it's as big as an adult human being.

I'd agree with that thinking, if it weren't that as soon as it gains a single extra hit die on advancement, it becomes Large. That means that it's already pretty close to Large at 3 HD. It's on the big side of the Medium range. Say, 200 pounds or so, maybe 300. It advances one hit die and BOOM!, it's Large. Which starts around 500 pounds, I think.

Depending on how much of the animal population has advanced hit dice, that could mean that 10%-40% of the wolverine population is Large.

[Zherog]

Or we could just stick foxes at 3 Int because that's not too different, and give them lots of skill points.

An animal with a 2 Int and an animal with a 3 Int will have the exact same number of skill points.

[Tengu]

This fox looks mighty. He'd take down a level 1 commoner or a goblin with no problem. But, on the other hand, a level 1 commoner would have trouble surviving a fight with a seesaw in DND.

I think that the best way of showing how smart an animal is is to keep its intelligence at 2, but boost its wisdom. And seeing that Gamebird's fox has 13 wis, she probably had a similar idea.