Cleric the bad-ass fighter?

[Fronko]

Hi all!

So, numerous people have pointed out, that cleric is a most competent fighter class actually, backing it up with a few spells they name.

However, I have so far only seen them as a supportive combatant at best, buffing the party and doinf the healing during/after combat.

Am I playing it wrongly? How will I become more of a bad-ass fighter, than our parties fighter himself?

Thanks for any hints.

[Bosh]

You could:

-Use divine metamagic to give you long lasting self-only buffs.
-Use those some sickeningly-powerful self-only buff before moving into combat even without divine metamagic.
-Remember that any healing spell that is cast on a character who would've lived even if that healing spell hadn't been cast on him is a complete waste in-combat.
-Use cheap cure light wounds wands for out of combat healing and save your spells for kicking ass.

But making the poor fighter cry isn't much fun for the group in general, I'd recommend showing some restraint

[Jack Mann]

Divine favor at low levels. When you get up high enough, start using divine power. Then quickened divine favor and divine power. At high levels, it's quickened divine favor, divine power, then you run up at the enemy. Quicken righteous might, and you full attack. You're down the one initial attack on the fighter, but you're doing more damage. Your ability to cast spells as you fight more than makes you a superior combatant.

EDIT: This is assuming core-only, mind. With divine metamagic, this becomes easier. You don't need supplemental material to outshine the fighter, however.

[Bears With Lasers]

Here's a core-only answer:

Start with a decently high STR and WIS (16 and 15 respectively, let's say; 16 and 16 or higher ideally). You get Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. Add Quicken Spell at level 9. If you've managed a decent Charisma, add the Divine Might feat (Power Attack, its prereq, should be taken anyway).

At low levels, you won't be quite as good. Use Bless to buff the entire party in the first round, then attack away.
Then, switch to Divine Favor instead of Bless.
At level 7, switch to casting Divine Power and closing to melee range. Full attack the next round.
At level 9, switch to casting Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor, closing to melee range, then full attacking the next round. If you have an extra round to buff (a tough fight you know is coming), add a Righteous Might spell you prepared one instance of at this level.
At level 15, switch to casting Quickened Divine Power and Righteous Might, and closing in, with a Quickened Divine Favor plus full attack the next combat round. You should have a +5 to +7 AB/damage advantage over the fighter at this point; more if you don't GMW his weapon up too.

Other details: use Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment to make your armor and weapons better--keep both at +1, stock up on special abilities. Combine with the Bead of Karma from the Strand of Prayer Beads (check your DMG or SRD) for a caster level boost when you cast them at the beginning of the day.

You're also a superior tank. You have an amazing will save instead of a crappy one. That, combined with your other spells, like Protection From/Magic Circle Against, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance, Air Walk, and the like, mean that you're vastly harder to disable than the fighter, and more mobile (add the Travel domain for flying/teleporting goodness).

[Jack Mann]

Er, yes. Quicken divine favor and divine power, not righteous might, the highest level of the three.

[Fronko]

Wow, those were some quick (and rather enlightening) answers, thanks guys.


A few comments: Yeah, I rather want core rules/spells, not much extra. And it´s exactly the kinds of answers, I was asking for. Keep em coming! Oh, and I know, making fighters cry is eeeevil, I am not aiming for that. But once in a while I may want to ... you know .. jsut have the edge in the fight. :)

[Bears With Lasers]

That's pretty much all there is to it, really. That, and not picking crappy spells to fill your non-buff slots.

[daggaz]

Erm.... whats this Divine Favor Feat you speak of? If its core, how come its not in the srd?

Also, how bout a rundown of some of the crappier (in your opinion) spells to avoid?

[Khantalas]

Because it's a spell?

Seriously, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Except when I'm proven right. Then I claim otherwise.

[Marius]

Erm.... whats this Divine Favor Feat you speak of? If its core, how come its not in the srd?

Also, how bout a rundown of some of the crappier (in your opinion) spells to avoid?

The feat is "divine might" and I think it's in Complete divine

[Khantalas]

You just skim the entire thread, don't you? If Divine Favor was a feat, why would it need a spell slot and could have a metamagic feat applied to it?

Funny thing, there was a mockery turn undead system making fun of the psychic attack and defense modes of Psionics Handbook at Wizards boards.

[Awetugiw]

Remember though, that even at high levels you will still need a round to buff, and have much less feats than the fighter. In a long combat you'll outshine the fighter, in something that lasts less than 3 rounds, like most fights (especially if you have some decent casters), the fighter will be a much better fighter.

[Bears With Lasers]

You take one round to buff; full attacks are almost never made in the first round of combat. You're one sword-swing behind the fighter, which isn't significant--you can and will be better. You have fewer feats, but unless the fighter is an optimized build, this doesn't help him enough to make him better (in a noncore game, he can be a better fighter with an AoO-mastery/battlefield control setup, but that's not enough to outweigh your full spellcasting; in a core-only game... there is absolutely no way those feats can help him be better than you).


Edit: Divine Favor is a first-level spell. Divine Might is a Complete Warrior feat; my bad for slipping it into core-only advice, ignore that. Take, oh, Power Attack, Combat Expertise/Improved Trip, Improved Initiative, stuff like that.

[Khantalas]

We have Divine Meta-cheese. You buy some nightsticks, and Persist at least two of these spells on yourself at the morning. Then, you quicken the other (divine favor, most likely) at whatever battle you enter.

Hell, persist all three of them. Nothing prevents you from doing that (as you can, you know, afford it by level 9).

[Fronko]

Start with a decently high STR and WIS (16 and 15 respectively, let's say; 16 and 16 or higher ideally). [...] If you've managed a decent Charisma, add the Divine Might feat (Power Attack, its prereq, should be taken anyway).

One thing I am curious about: In that build, you value STR over CHA (WIS is first priority, of course). This is obviously the way to go, when aiming for battle prowess.

But that (somewhat) low charisma will hurt your turning ability, right? So, on a not-necessarily-aimed-for-combat cleric, would you exchange the two or would you still go for strength and just clobber them undead into oblivion?

[Rigeld2]

I would still go for strength. Turns rarely get used in my experience, except as fodder for Divine Metamagic.

[SpiderBrigade]

Plus undead get disproportionately harder to turn as you go up in level. So it's not that great an investment.

Edit: unless you're going for a turn-specialized Pelor build, or something.

[Bears With Lasers]

One thing I am curious about: In that build, you value STR over CHA (WIS is first priority, of course). This is obviously the way to go, when aiming for battle prowess.

But that (somewhat) low charisma will hurt your turning ability, right? So, on a not-necessarily-aimed-for-combat cleric, would you exchange the two or would you still go for strength and just clobber them undead into oblivion?

In that build I"m actually prioritizing STR over WIS by one point, if you're short on points or rolled or something. You're a melee cleric. Just have enough WIS, with items, to have the bonus spell slot of your highest-level spell at any point (a +X wis bonus gets you one bonus Spell Level X spell slot).

On a non-combat-primary cleric, I'd swap STR and WIS, but forget CHA. Turning is a sucker's game. At low levels, it's helpful; at mid-levels, it gets worse unless you're focused on it; at high levels, undead have so many more HD than you do that it's useless.

[Khantalas]

Slightly relevant question: Is the damage / heal variant of turn undead in Complete Divine any good?

If it's not, will adding your charisma bonus times your cleric level / 3 fix it (and make charisma a better, though not really great, choice)?

[Wolf53226]

Having not played with the variant, but just reading it, my opinion is worth the paper it is written on.

{lets that comment sink in}

I think it is rather meh, they get a save for half damage, which isn't all that hard of a save to make, and certain undead will get damage reduction versus it. While the damage is only capped by what level you are, which makes it ok, it is not a great option even then.

As an example, at level 5 with a charisma bonus of 2, a cleric is going to average about 15-16 points of damage to a spectre (cr7) if it fails a save it only needs a 10 on. If it makes the save your looking at 7-9 damage, granted this hits all undead in the area, but it sure doesn't seem that great to me.

[Fronko]

In that build I"m actually prioritizing STR over WIS by one point,

Yeah, youre right. Thanks for your comments anyway! :)

[Yuki Akuma]

Remember: Do not waste your spell slots on healing spells when the fighter is at 90% of his health.

Killing the guy trying to kill your guys faster is always the best way to stop him from killing your guys. Don't waste actions on heals.

In fact, only use your wand of cure light when your allies are bleeding to death, and save the big heals for when the fighter has 1 hp left against a monster that's doing an average of 30 damage per round. Otherwise, use that wand between battles.

[terrant]

1) Get the team to share the cost of a Wand of CLW.

2) Make sure they all have potions of CLW, not for themselves but for you should the worst happen and you, the walking bandaid, go down and become the comatose bandaid, that's not the time for them to realise they can't use the wand.

3) In my group I don't buff, the very nice sorceror in the team almost automatically applies mage armour at the hint of danger and the +4AC is for hours, not rounds.

4) Holding a charge is a nice trick at times (in my case it was as an invisible cleric stalking a lich to give him a friendly Cure Serious Wounds surprise. Holding the charge meant the spell was readed out of his hearing range).

5) Searing Light - love it - no save from the target if you make the ranged touch hit.

6) Scrolls - buy some - your never going to wake up and pray for/prepare a Water Walking spell - which is a real pain on the day you discover you should have prepared it.

5) Feats - too many to choose, all with merit. Gauge your DM's style. I picked Combat Casting at 1st level, only to discover that my DM never bothers with concentration checks.

6) Its good that you can survive in melee unlike your unarmour wizard friends. However always keep an eye of being able to step back safely when you need to cast else you'll suffer from attacks of opportunity, let the true fighters pick the more awkward positions.

[Bears With Lasers]

Oh, yeah--Combat Casting is a trap. Skill Focus: Concentration gives +3 instead of +4, but it applies all the time, not just for casting defensively.

Searing Light? Why would you bother? You can just hit something with a full attack and do more damage.

"Survive" in melee? "True fighters"? We're talking about melee clerics. He IS the true fighter, and will be far better at it than any core fighter.

[Khantalas]

Yeah, a cleric doesn't "survive" in melee, he excels in it. And can cast spells.

You know, unlike Fighter, who can't do either of those.

[terrant]

Maybe its a language thing, "true fighters" wasn't a compliment for the idiots who run into the middle, and the point was about doing melee but always keeping a space to move into for casting.

?can you do a worked example of a 5th level core cleric with light weapon doing better than 5d6 damage on undead - I'm keen to learn the error of my ways?

[Bears With Lasers]

Maybe its a language thing, "true fighters" wasn't a compliment for the idiots who run into the middle, and the point was about doing melee but always keeping a space to move into for casting.

?can you do a worked example of a 5th level core cleric with light weapon doing better than 5d6 damage on undead - I'm keen to learn the error of my ways?

5d6 is 17 average damage.
Using Summon Monster III to get a Huge fiendish monstrous centipede to grapple and damage enemies will very likely yield more than that. It's also vastly more effective against anything not undead, and you can use the spell to summon a different monster if you want/need to.
Besides--at level 5, you can just turn the undead.

[Ted_Stryker]

Edit: Divine Favor is a first-level spell. Divine Might is a Complete Warrior feat; my bad for slipping it into core-only advice, ignore that. Take, oh, Power Attack, Combat Expertise/Improved Trip, Improved Initiative, stuff like that.

Divine Might is also in the extended SRD. Check with your DM whether that counts as "core" or not.

[Wolf53226]

?can you do a worked example of a 5th level core cleric with light weapon doing better than 5d6 damage on undead - I'm keen to learn the error of my ways?

Cure Serious Wounds on the undead? Should average to 18.5

Or

Adding various spells on top of your weapon and strength bonus, this depends on what domains you are. Things like Divine Favor, Bulls Strength, Enlarge Person, etc....

[Yuki Akuma]

Power Attack, wielding a weapon with two hands, spells to increase your Strength, size category and base attack bonus... yeah, I'm pretty sure you can deal more than 17 damage with your morningstar.