Scout/Ranger

[Aximili]

Ok. I'm gonna play a Scout character multiclassing into ranger. At first, I was looking for some damage potential, but I realise that's not the scouts strongest feature, so I come here to ask what else could I invest in?
My plans were the following:

1)Scout (Point blank shot, Precise shot)
2)Ranger
3)Scout (Expeditious Dodge)
4)Scout
5)Scout (Swift Hunter)
6)Ranger (Improved Skirmish)

I was planning on getting (greater) Manyshot at (12th) 9th level, or earlier with the help of fighter levels.
My question is: is there a better way to direct my feats/levels as to make the character a more effective scout (not necessarily at combat)?

ps:If it matters, I'm going with DEX first and WIS second. Investing mostly on skills related to these two.

[Ramza00]

Scout 3/Ranger 6/Scout 1/Ranger 10
lvl 6 Swift Hunter
Ranger Combat Style (at lvl 9) Manyshot
lvl 9 Greater Manyshot
Scout Bonus Feat (at lvl 10) Improved Skirmish

Note even if you are going to be an archery primary, have a large greatsword as backup due to wind wall and other annoyances. If they do this, use your greatsword with a charge and the spell lion charge giving you the pounce ability and thus skirmish+charge+full attack.

[Aximili]

I've gotta say, I really wanted to go mostly scout (blindsense/sight is just nifty). But after taking a look at the ranger spells from spellcompendium, I'm starting to change my mind.

[Grizzled Gryphon]

Ahh, for the spells. Got it. I was wondering why you wanted the ranger.

I would suggest dropping the Ranger, and doing Scout until you can do Dervish. Then, you get to move between attacks with the dervish dance.

I don't remember if you can move enough to activate skirmish, though... But I believe you could. That was why the combo was so nice... I think. LOL, it is late, and I am tired.

Of course, you could get into Elocater, and then get the extra 5 foot step that class gives you.

Meh, do as you will. None of this really sounds all that useful for you, so why did I post it, again?

[Darrin]

Looks like you're already set to go into Highland Stalker (easiest way to get another 1d6 skirmish damage).

Other than that... yeah, get Greater Manyshot ASAP, and then pick up the feat from Complete Scoundrel and increases your skirmish damage by 2d6 if you move 20'.

Otherwise... if you can get ahold of Tome of Battle, the White Raven stance Press the Advantage gives you two 5' steps, which means pretty much perpetual sneak damage. It'll take a while to get, though.

[shaka gl]

If your DM accepts homebrewing, check out the class I created mixed these up. Who knows, maybe you like it...

The thread is called Scout+Ranger=Scouter

[Aximili]

Ahh, for the spells. Got it. I was wondering why you wanted the ranger.

Also for two easy-to-get feats (track and rapid shot), and for the favored enemy.

Anyway, thank you all very much for the suggestions. I'll be sure to check everything out.

[Umbral_Arcanist]

Umm, looking at the progression you posted, i believe that improved skirmish is an epic feat... Where are you seeing it?

[Ramza00]

It is a non epic feat in complete scoundrel
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...070105a&page=4

[Draz74]

Hmmm, it's also an epic feat in Complete Adventurer. That's sloppy. Two (separate) feats with the same name ...

[Quietus]

Also look at Spellcasting Harrier. In the Epic Level Handbook, it makes it so anyone you're threatening in melee combat takes a penalty of 1/2 your level on their concentration checks to cast on the defensive. In the Draconomicon, however, it clearly states that you flat out get an attack of opportunity, even if they CoD. Both labelled as epic feats with combat reflexes as a prereq.

[oriong]

That's because the Epic Level Handbook is 3.0, the updated Epic rules give you an automatic attack of opportunity at +4.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats...castingHarrier

[Person_Man]

As a Ranger, your Wis doesn't need to be above 14, because you never have to cast a spell above 4th level. And since you're taking levels of Scout, you probably don't need to start with a Wis higher then 12. You can alway buy items or add more points to your Wis from class levels. Max Dex, and pump the rest of your points into Con and Str. Keep a good Int. Dump Cha.

I'm not a fan of Expeditious Dodge. +2 AC is ok. But it doesn't scale with levels. And I've seen it used in a campaign, and all too often your movement is limited, especially in dungeons.

If you want to increase your ranged damage, your goal is to get Greater Manyshot as soon as possible. So you may want to go strait Ranger first, and then head into Scout later.

If you want more Skills, Nymphs Kiss from Book of Exhalted Deeds is the best way. 1 bonus Skill point per level. You should also pump Int at the expense of Str if this is your main goal.

If you want to be great at melee combat, use the Wildshape Ranger variant combined with Scout. Dump all your physical stats into the 10 range. Wildshape into something that has Pounce. Take Leap Attack. Get the Skirmish feats on top. At higher levels, you can always take one of the Wildshape feats to change into other more powerful creatures.

Having said all that, you should know that Scouts and Rangers are rarely effective combat PC's. My favorite PC of all time was a Kobold Scout that I optimized and played for over a year. But even the non-optimized Sorcerer and Psychic Warrior regularly out-shone me in combat. If you want to play a Ranger/Scout, great, I applaud you. But don't think you're going to be good at combat. You'll help. But you'll never be good.

[Aximili]

As a Ranger, your Wis doesn't need to be above 14, because you never have to cast a spell above 4th level. And since you're taking levels of Scout, you probably don't need to start with a Wis higher then 12. You can alway buy items or add more points to your Wis from class levels. Max Dex, and pump the rest of your points into Con and Str. Keep a good Int. Dump Cha.

Cha is a definite dump.
I'm gonna keep int above Con, because I simply need skillpoints, and in my group we usually get a lot of stats points, so my Con will still be above 11.
I'm in doubt between Str and Int, I believe Int should be higher since I would really shine with skills rather than combat (as any other scout). But I might just keep them even.
As for Wis, I really wanted to keep it as second highest simply for the skills. Listen, sense motive, survival and heal are all skills that I plan to max out.

Right now I'm starting to consider taking Zen archery and leaving Dex at 10. My AC would suck, but it would allow me to invest more on the other 4 stats.

I'm not a fan of Expeditious Dodge. +2 AC is ok. But I've seen it used in campaigns, and all too often your movement is limited, especially in Dungeons.

My group hardly ever plays inside dungeons. We are in cities and natural environments 95% of the time. But I'm gonna dumb ED for either Zen-archery or Keen-eared Scot.

If you want more Skills, Nymphs Kiss from Book of Exhalted Deeds is the best way. 1 bonus Skill point per level.

Lack of feats

Having said all that, you should know that Scouts and Rangers are rarely effective combat PC's. My favorite PC of all time was a Kobold Scout that I optimized and played for over a year. But even the non-optimized Sorcerer and Psychic Warrior regularly out-shone me in combat. If you want to play a Ranger/Scout, great, I applaud you. But don't think you're going to be good at combat. You'll help. But you'll never be good.

Yes, my intention is merely to be usefull at something beside skills. No need to bring devastation to the battlefield. (not that I don't think skills are enough, but if I wanted just skills, I'd have gone with bard.)

[Ikkitosen]

The Swift Hunter feat is an absolutge must. Not only do you get to stack scout and ranger levels for skirmish and favoured enemy, but YOU CAN ALSO APPLY SKIRMISH DAMAGE TO CRIT-IMMUNE FAVOURED ENEMIES. Take undead, construct, plant, ooze etc. asap!

The tip about keeping Lion's Charge handy is great too.

[Amiria]

Right now I'm starting to consider taking Zen archery and leaving Dex at 10. My AC would suck, but it would allow me to invest more on the other 4 stats.

As far as I know, although with Zen Archery you use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier when making a ranged attack roll, the Dexterity modifier is still relevant for feat prerequisites. Like i.e. Dex 17 for Greater Manyshot

[Person_Man]

As far as I know, although with Zen Archery you use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier when making a ranged attack roll, the Dexterity modifier is still relevant for feat prerequisites. Like i.e. Dex 17 for Greater Manyshot

I agree with Amiria. (btw, what doll is your avatar holding? 90% of the time I get obscure anime or art references, but I'm drawing a blank on this one. Regardless, its cool).

You need high Dex for AC, Initiative, the and archer feat tree. Your Wis doesn't have to be above 12 for now.

Keep in mind you're going to be wearing light armor, and you'll frequently be using Tumble, Hide, and Move Silently. And as you've already admitted, you need as many feats as possible for other things, wasting it on Zen Archery is a bad idea.

[Aximili]

Yeah, I completely forgot about the feats prerequisites. And you're right, Dex skills are gonna be just as (or more) important as the Wis ones, so Zen-archery is really out of the picture.

What about Keen-Eared Scout. Is it a good call? I could get it at level 3 by taking a flaw in exchange for Skill focus (listen). But I'm wondering if it's worth the flaw and the 3rd level feat.

EDIT:Nevermind... I'm just gonna get Nymphs Kiss at first level and delay precise shot to 3rd.

[lared]

If you are going to be the detrapper of the party (per the errata, Scout gets Disable Device as class skill), Tactile Trapsmith from CAdv is a solid pick. It lets you apply DEX instead of INT to your Search and DD skills.

Uncanny Trickster prc from Complete Scoundrel is also good. You can use the class' "+1 existing class features" to continue to advance your ranger features while enjoying a better class skill list/skills per level. Really, it's almost worth taking even before you factor in the bonus skill trick and favorite trick class features.

[Person_Man]

If you are going to be the detrapper of the party (per the errata, Scout gets Disable Device as class skill), Tactile Trapsmith from CAdv is a solid pick. It lets you apply DEX instead of INT to your Search and DD skills.

That's a bad idea. Spending a feat to gain a minor Skill bonus (+3ish on two Skills) is a huge waste of a feat.

Uncanny Trickster prc from Complete Scoundrel is also good. You can use the class' "+1 existing class features" to continue to advance your ranger features while enjoying a better class skill list/skills per level. Really, it's almost worth taking even before you factor in the bonus skill trick and favorite trick class features.

Again, another bad idea. Swift Hunter allows his Favored Enemy and Skirmish bonuses to progress, but only if he's taking levels of Ranger or Scout. Dipping into other classes will screw those bonuses, and Uncanny Trickster will only allow progression of one of them, and doesn't even provide full progression, and it has fewer hit points then a Ranger.

[Amiria]

I agree with Amiria. (btw, what doll is your avatar holding? 90% of the time I get obscure anime or art references, but I'm drawing a blank on this one. Regardless, its cool).

Uh, I most people think that it is a doll of a Star Trek TNG captain ... and they are almost right.

It is a doll of Captain Cuddly/Chris the Pontifex. Last year - around April Fools' Day - the Borg took over the SMBG and tried to assimilate everyone. Among those who fought back was the crew of the starship, whose founder and captain is Chris The Pontifex. I was one of the first volunteers.

Later, when the the doll hype hit the SMBG in the first days of the Town, Chris made a customizable doll of himself. Somehow I started to call him Captain Cuddly in the "Who's Next ?" SMBG and so he actually put his uniform on the doll.

Whew, a exhaustive answer.

[Person_Man]

Uh, I most people think that it is a doll of a Star Trek TNG captain ... and they are almost right.

It is a doll of Captain Cuddly/Chris the Pontifex. Last year - around April Fools' Day - the Borg took over the SMBG and tried to assimilate everyone. Among those who fought back was the crew of the starship, whose founder and captain is Chris The Pontifex. I was one of the first volunteers.

Later, when the the doll hype hit the SMBG in the first days of the Town, Chris made a customizable doll of himself. Somehow I started to call him Captain Cuddly in the "Who's Next ?" SMBG and so he actually put his uniform on the doll.

Whew, a exhaustive answer.

That is awesome. If you could somehow work classical mythology and something engineering related into your avatar, then it would be perfect.

[lared]

That's a bad idea. Spending a feat to gain a minor Skill bonus (+3ish on two Skills) is a huge waste of a feat.

Eh, reducing MAD is good. Even at just +3ish on two skills, it's effectively a double-Skill Focus feat, which is already ahead of the curve. The feat also scales as you level, as the scout is likely to continue to improve his DEX through one means or another. Most important, of course, is that you're improving the two skills that will most appreciably affect the survivability of the party (assuming you are, in fact, the party's designated detrapper, and further assuming you are playing in the sort of conventional campaign wherein deadly traps are an expected encounter for the party).

Again, another bad idea. Swift Hunter allows his Favored Enemy and Skirmish bonuses to progress, but only if he's taking levels of Ranger or Scout. Dipping into other classes will screw those bonuses, and Uncanny Trickster will only allow progression of one of them, and doesn't even provide full progression, and it has fewer hit points then a Ranger.

Ah, probably my mistake in interpreting how the PrC would interact with Swift Hunter, then, though I don't think it would be much of a stretch to suggest to your DM that the ability for ranger levels to now stack with scout levels for the purposes of Skirmish bonuses is a class feature that you've now gained. The "+1 Class Feature" thing is fraught with rules ambiguity in general.

[Person_Man]

Eh, reducing MAD is good. Even at just +3ish on two skills, it's effectively a double-Skill Focus feat, which is already ahead of the curve. The feat also scales as you level, as the scout is likely to continue to improve his DEX through one means or another. Most important, of course, is that you're improving the two skills that will most appreciably affect the survivability of the party (assuming you are, in fact, the party's designated detrapper, and further assuming you are playing in the sort of conventional campaign wherein deadly traps are an expected encounter for the party).

Tactile Trapsmith allows you to use your Dex instead of your Int on your Search and Disable Device checks. It's a really bad feat for several reasons.

First, you can take 20 on Search checks. So you rarely miss such a check, unless you're rushed for some reason. This might happen once every couple of games. Spending a feat to slightly increase something you might do every couple of games is a huge waste.

Second, any Skill Monkey worth their Masterwork Tools is going to have a high Int. Having a high Int early in the game is the most effective way of boosting Skills, more effective then any feat or magic item ever could be. So any potential bonus you gain from Tactile Trapsmith is usually quite small.

Third, if what you really care about is Skills, take Nymph's kiss, which gives you a +1 Skill point each level. By mid levels, it will far outstip the usefulness of any Skill Focus or X to Y feat.

Fourth, most Skill Monkeys have an easy time making most of their Skill checks by mid levels. The DM might artificially set some DC's particularly high to reward a Skill Monkey who has an insane Skill bonus. But for the most part, having a +3 bonus to any Skill is mathmatically rarely meaningful.

Fifth, finding traps is easily bypassed. Summon a few low level monsters or buy a pack of dogs for a few gold pieces. Have them run around any area you think might have traps. Heck, just bring a standard 10 foot pole with you. Problem solved.

And finally, if you waste your feats on such garbage, you're going to suck at combat. Skill Monkeys already suck at combat. If you take non-combat feats, they'll be utterly useless in combat.

Ah, probably my mistake in interpreting how the PrC would interact with Swift Hunter, then, though I don't think it would be much of a stretch to suggest to your DM that the ability for ranger levels to now stack with scout levels for the purposes of Skirmish bonuses is a class feature that you've now gained. The "+1 Class Feature" thing is fraught with rules ambiguity in general.

Yes, Uncanny Trickster is a poorly written Prestige Class. But the multiclass feats clearly require that you be of X and Y classes for the levels to stack for your class abilities. Adding in Z prestige class will almost always fubar any such build.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes, Uncanny Trickster is a poorly written Prestige Class. But the multiclass feats clearly require that you be of X and Y classes for the levels to stack for your class abilities. Adding in Z prestige class will almost always fubar any such build.

Does Legacy Champion's stacking levels suffer the same problem? I wasn't aware that it did, but it's been a while since I've read it.

[okpokalypse]

That's a bad idea. Spending a feat to gain a minor Skill bonus (+3ish on two Skills) is a huge waste of a feat.

Early on it may only be +3, but when you get to higher levels and add in your inherent bonuses from levelling, and +stat items to your Dex (Mage's get the +Int Items) you're looking at a difference of at least +6, if not much higher.

Of course, getting a single magical item that adds +10 to two skills costs 25,000 gp market value - so at the high end, that might be a better alternative - since gold is common, but feats aren't.

A feat that might be nice is Quick Reconnoiter. It gives +2 Initiative and makes your (non-reactive) Spot and Listen checks free actions (Instead of Move Actions). If you're truly of the mind to be a Scout - it's a great feat to have.

[smellie_hippie]

I'm building a scout for a game right now as well. I went "Shifter" for race with focus on Longstride. I'd like some spells from Ranger, but this campaign is starting at a modest 6th level and I picked out feats as following...

Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot. I took Dodge & Mobility (to lead into Shot on the Run)

With the Shifter bonuses, I have a base move of 40', 50' if shifted (with an additional +2 Dex) I'll also be doing an extra 2d6 damage with the bow on sneak attack.

It's not cleave or anything massive, but with that stack, I can shoot into combat to aid any tank, stay moving to avoid getting hit and basically offer continuous cover fire.

[lared]

Second, any Skill Monkey worth their Masterwork Tools is going to have a high Int.

So, Tactile Trapsmith lets you use INT as a dump stat. This is bad because?

Third, if what you really care about is Skills, take Nymph's kiss, which gives you a +1 Skill point each level. By mid levels, it will far outstip the usefulness of any Skill Focus or X to Y feat.

Specialization is good. I don't care about skills, I care about the skills that matter.

Fourth, most Skill Monkeys have an easy time making most of their Skill checks by mid levels. The DM might artificially set some DC's particularly high to reward a Skill Monkey who has an insane Skill bonus. But for the most part, having a +3 bonus to any Skill is mathmatically rarely meaningful.

A +3 bonus (almost assuredly higher as the character levels) represents a +15% improved likelihood of success on a given roll. It only becomes mathematically irrelevant if every possible roll on a d20 is a success with our without the bonus.

Fifth, finding traps is easily bypassed. Summon a few low level monsters or buy a pack of dogs for a few gold pieces. Have them run around any area you think might have traps. Heck, just bring a standard 10 foot pole with you. Problem solved.

I agree with your solutions here, though note that you're essentially arguing that the party does not need a detrapper at all, which is a whole other discussion as to how DMs run campaigns. The premise, naturally, of my suggestion for taking the feat is that the character is going to be the party detrapper.

And finally, if you waste your feats on such garbage, you're going to suck at combat. Skill Monkeys already suck at combat. If you take non-combat feats, they'll be utterly useless in combat.

Really, the build OP presented - Scout 4/Ranger X is in fact a combat build and not a skill monkey, and Tactile Trapsmith allows the build to apply its key combat ability - DEX - to the one skill it uses. Again, reduce MAD, dump INT for combat stats, increase synergy for when you up DEX. With one feat you can make the build quite good at the single skill most parties expect out of their skill monkey, while keeping combat stats high and not actually becoming a skill monkey and sucking at combat, as you say.

[okpokalypse]

So, Tactile Trapsmith lets you use INT as a dump stat. This is bad because?

You still need Int for Skills. There's no getting around it. You're way too dependant on a lot of skills having high ranks to ignore it.

Specialization is good. I don't care about skills, I care about the skills that matter.

As a Scout / Ranger, the skills that matter are:
Listen, Spot, Disable Device, Search, Hide, Move Silently, Survival and Tumble. Those should always be at max ranks, and if you've got a negative Int modifier, you can't accomplish that.

In addition you'd like want to put ranks into other skills as well:
Balance, Climb, Jump, Knowledge (Nature) and Use Rope should be used just for the usefulness and synergies. You might also want Escape Artist, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and Knowledge (Geography) as well.

My Elven Scout/Ranger has a 14 Int, and I still need more skill points to flush out everything as I'd like at L9.

Really, the build OP presented - Scout 4/Ranger X is in fact a combat build and not a skill monkey, and Tactile Trapsmith allows the build to apply its key combat ability - DEX - to the one skill it uses. Again, reduce MAD, dump INT for combat stats, increase synergy for when you up DEX. With one feat you can make the build quite good at the single skill most parties expect out of their skill monkey, while keeping combat stats high and not actually becoming a skill monkey and sucking at combat, as you say.

If you're talking about not being a skill monkey, and just going with literally 4 primary skills (Disable Device, Search, Survival, Tumble) - then it could well be worth it. But I'd still use some other feats that I feel more efficient...

Hamstring (Sacrifice 2d6 Skirmish to Reduce Enemy Movement by 50%)
Hear the Unseen (Locate Enemy Via Sound)
Telling Blow (Add in Skirmish Damage with Criticals)

Telling blow is especially nice if you are allowed to take a 2-level Dip into a 3.0 PrC (Deepwood Sniper) to get your multiplier up to X4 and get automatic Keen Arrows (No need to Improved Crit your Bow). Not to mention Concealment Reduction and a Range Increase as well.

With an Energy Burst Weapon & Telling Blow, at L12 Scout/Ranger/Deepwood Sniper Combo is critting on a 19-20, and doing Weapon Damage x4, 5d6 Skirmish Damage x4 and d6 + 3d10 Energy Damage.

Assuming a +2 Longbow w/ Energy Burst, that's an average damage of 116 on a Crit. That ain't too shabby.

It's also nice for melee Scout/Rangers who don't go DwS because a Keen'd Rapier's got that 15-20/x2 Crit Range. 30% Chance of your hit doing 10d6 Damage by L9 - so long as you've got the Improved Skirmish feat boosting it by +2d6.

[Aximili]

OK, there is way to much think here for me to answer fully. So just to clear a few things:
This character is a skill monkey. So inteligent is a must. Also, he is not buying ranks in search and disable device. Traps and stuff are extremely rare with our DM, I'll be surprise if one shows up at all, and if one does the druid can alwas summon something to go in first. So tactile trapsmith is entirely out. But thanks for the suggestion anyway.

The skills that matter to this character are: Tumble, Escape artist, Hide, Move Silently, Survival, Listen and Spot.
Also investing ranks in Knowledge (Nature), Climb, Use Ropes and Heal + Skill tricks.

Quite a bit of skills, but nothing a Human Scout with Nymph's kiss can't handle.

Specialization is good. I don't care about skills, I care about the skills that matter.

Specialization is good up to a point. It's good to specialize in dealing damage in a certain way. But specialize in dealing damage against a certain creature is sure to make you shine less than a broken lamp.
Same goes for those who specialise in three or four skills. It's much better to simply specialize in skills in general. So you get to cover all the gaps that the others can't, plus all the skills necessary for your own personal survival.