gestalt issues

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

I'm currently about to roll up a character for the first gestalt game I'm ever going to play in. I'm planning on playing a thri-kreen. Now I grasp the whole two class thing, but I'm having some trouble understanding how LA affects things. The SRD for gestalt really doesn't go very in depth on things.

[PhoeKun]

As I understand it, the LA goes on one side of the progression, and that's all there is to it. For instance, a 2nd Level Drow Cleric would be -

Drow//Cleric 2.


HD and LA go on the same side. So, in the case of Thri-kreen (which are what? LA +2 and 3 HD?)

Thri-kreen LA2/Thri-kreen HD3//Ranger 5.

[Rahdjan]

so what 2 classes are you planning on taking? Monk and what else?

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

thanks for the clarification, but I think thri-kreens are a +1 LA. The MM II says they have 2 HD and are an ECL 3.

Edit: I was planning on being a monk/sorc but since the LA thing takes care of one of those, I'll probably just go with monk.

[The_Snark]

MMII is old; the newer thri-keen, from the Expanded Psionics Handbook and the SRD, are LA +2.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

well I don't have Expanded Psionics or Savage Species (I've heard it's in there too, but I despise the book anyway.) So all I've got to go on is what's in MM II. And the Thri-kreen isn't in the SRD in either the psionic or monster sections. At least not the version I have bookmarked

[JaronK]

LA and Gestalt have no official rules combining the two. It's simply not in there. There's two options to use, and neither are good.

If you put LA on one side of the Gestalt, it's overpowered... by a lot. Normally in Gestalt you lose something on each side. For example, a Wizard//Swashbuckler loses d4 HD, .333 Fort Save, and 1/2BAB per level (from the Wizard side) and .333 Will Save from the Swashbuckler side. If LA is on one side, nothing at all is lost, and this really adds up.

If you put LA on both sides, it's even weaker than LA normally is (and LA is often very weak already).

So basically, it's either overpowered or underpowered. Using the second option with LA Paydown works pretty well though.

JaronK

[The_Snark]

well I don't have Expanded Psionics or Savage Species (I've heard it's in there too, but I despise the book anyway.) So all I've got to go on is what's in MM II

SRD, too. Under Psionic Races or Psionic Monsters.

Edit- An imperfect solution I've considered, should I ever end up running a gestalt game myself:

1. LA is halved, but counts for both sides.
2. Racial HD only count for one side.

[PhoeKun]

LA and Gestalt have no official rules combining the two. It's simply not in there. There's two options to use, and neither are good.

If you put LA on one side of the Gestalt, it's overpowered... by a lot. Normally in Gestalt you lose something on each side. For example, a Wizard//Swashbuckler loses d4 HD, .333 Fort Save, and 1/2BAB per level (from the Wizard side) and .333 Will Save from the Swashbuckler side. If LA is on one side, nothing at all is lost, and this really adds up.

If you put LA on both sides, it's even weaker than LA normally is (and LA is often very weak already).

So basically, it's either overpowered or underpowered. Using the second option with LA Paydown works pretty well though.

JaronK

Er... what!?

The LA is eating one side of your potential class features. That's a big loss. Especially when compared to the supposed "penalties" in your above example. Gods help the Wizard who loses his d4 hit dice. Whatever shall he do with full BAB? Woe is he!

[JaronK]

No, seriously. Consider it this way.

Let's compare a Barbarian 6//Fighter 6 to a (non gestalt) Barbarian 6/Fighter 6. The first is a 6th level Gestalt character, the second is a 12th level character. The Gestalt is no where near the strength of the 12th level character... he's down by 6 BAB, 6d10 + 6*Con bonus hitpoints, 3 points of fort save, and 2 points of will and reflex save. He's clearly not as strong as a character twice his level.

Now let's compare a Human Half Dragon 3/Feral 1/Mineral Warrior 1/Dark 1//Barbarian 6 vs. a Half Dragon Feral Mineral Warrior Dark Human Barbarian (yes, I know that's insane, but I'm making a point here). Again, 6th level Gestalt vs 12th level standard character... but notice that these two characters are actually identical. Same BAB, same saves, same everything, with the one exception being that the 12th level character has 2 more feats and 2 more stat raises from levels... and that's it.

By making a character with LA up one side of the equation, you get a gestalt character that's equivalent to a standard character of twice his ECL. That's a serious problem.

In my example above with the Wizard//Swashbuckler, the loss is actuall 1d4+con bonus hit points per level, .5 BAB per level, some saves, and some skill points. In other words, a Wizard 4//Swashbuckler 4, as compared to a Wizard 3/Swashbuckler 3, with a con of 14 and an int of 18. The Gestalt character there has on average 18 fewer HPs, 1 lower Will save, 1 lower Fort Save, 1 Lower Reflex Save, 2 lower BAB, and 24 fewer skills (plus lower max skills). That may have seemed trivial, but over a few levels, it really adds up.

JaronK

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

Snark, you are mistaken the only t lettered psionic monsters are temporal filcher, thought eater and thought slayer. It is not there, I have looked it over several times, and even done a searchs of thri, kreen, thri kreen, and thri-kreen. It's not in the SRD. On top of that, y'all are beginning to confuse me even further instead of helping clear things up.

[The_Snark]

Hmm. You are correct. I guess it's one of the monsters that got left out of the OGC, like the mind flayer.

And allowing LA to take up only one side of the progression will only mildly benefit spellcasters (except those who choose mind flayer wizards or succubus sorcerers, or some other monster with excellent mental abilities), but as JaronK points out, it makes fightery characters much, much better. Feral Half-dragon Half-troll Goliath on one side, Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker on the other... it all adds up. Basically, you're only missing out on class features, which hurts spellcasters (whose primary power lies in class features) but aids melee characters (who have compensations for reduced class features, like more HP and better BAB).

As an aside, I figured out a gestalt solution to the Frenzied Berserker teamkilling problem. Be a Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker X on one side, and a Telepath 5/Thrallherd 1/Telepath X-1 on the other side. Order your replaceable thralls to stay close, especially in combat. Now you've got a replaceable buffer-zone in between you and your friends. Stay away from Great Cleave and you should be fine.

[PhoeKun]

No, seriously. Consider it this way.

Let's compare a Barbarian 6//Fighter 6 to a (non gestalt) Barbarian 6/Fighter 6. The first is a 6th level Gestalt character, the second is a 12th level character. The Gestalt is no where near the strength of the 12th level character... he's down by 6 BAB, 6d10 + 6*Con bonus hitpoints, 3 points of fort save, and 2 points of will and reflex save. He's clearly not as strong as a character twice his level.

Now let's compare a Human Half Dragon 3/Feral 1/Mineral Warrior 1/Dark 1//Barbarian 6 vs. a Half Dragon Feral Mineral Warrior Dark Human Barbarian (yes, I know that's insane, but I'm making a point here). Again, 6th level Gestalt vs 12th level standard character... but notice that these two characters are actually identical. Same BAB, same saves, same everything, with the one exception being that the 12th level character has 2 more feats and 2 more stat raises from levels... and that's it.

By making a character with LA up one side of the equation, you get a gestalt character that's equivalent to a standard character of twice his ECL. That's a serious problem.

In my example above with the Wizard//Swashbuckler, the loss is actuall 1d4+con bonus hit points per level, .5 BAB per level, some saves, and some skill points. In other words, a Wizard 4//Swashbuckler 4, as compared to a Wizard 3/Swashbuckler 3, with a con of 14 and an int of 18. The Gestalt character there has on average 18 fewer HPs, 1 lower Will save, 1 lower Fort Save, 1 Lower Reflex Save, 2 lower BAB, and 24 fewer skills (plus lower max skills). That may have seemed trivial, but over a few levels, it really adds up.

JaronK

I believe you are very mistaken in your understanding of the gestalt system. It is intended to combine the best features of 2 classes into one level, so that smaller parties can manage on their own (or for high powered campaigns). Class X1//ClassY1 is meant to be compared to Class X1 or Class Y1, not ClassX1/ClassY1.

A gestalt Barbarian6//Fighter 6 isn't meant to be the equal of a 12th level character - he is only 6th level.

And that Gestalt Wizard//Swashbuckler? He's two levels lower than his non-Gestalt counterpart: of course he's going to have lower saves...

I understand your point that LA is stronger in gestalt than it is in regular D&D, but LA is so worthless ordinarily that this only makes it usable.

[The_Snark]

I believe you are very mistaken in your understanding of the gestalt system. It is intended to combine the best features of 2 classes into one level, so that smaller parties can manage on their own (or for high powered campaigns). Class X1//ClassY1 is meant to be compared to Class X1 or Class Y1, not ClassX1/ClassY1.

A gestalt Barbarian6//Fighter 6 isn't meant to be the equal of a 12th level character - he is only 6th level.

That is his point; the gestalt Barbarian/Fighter wasn't equal to the 12th level character. The heavily templated gestalt barbarian actually was.

[PhoeKun]

I vaguely remember making a second point. That being that LA sucks noodles.

My being tired and misreading posts aside, that alternate point remains valid.

[The_Snark]

I vaguely remember making a second point. That being that LA sucks noodles.

My being tired and misreading posts aside, that alternate point remains valid.

Yeah... true, mostly. Though melee builds with LA can be decent even without gestalt. (And without being Feral Mineral Warriors, too.)

[Thomas]

Yeah... true, mostly. Though melee builds with LA can be decent even without gestalt. (And without being Feral Mineral Warriors, too.)

You mean feral mineral warrior Savage Species half-ogres.

[The_Snark]

You mean feral mineral warrior Savage Species half-ogres.

There's a more recent version of the half-ogre, though, with +2 LA, so it's tough to get away with that one.

[Zincorium]

That is his point; the gestalt Barbarian/Fighter wasn't equal to the 12th level character. The heavily templated gestalt barbarian actually was.

Wait, you mean if I take the most broken templates for a melee character available, and then compare it to an extremely poor gestalt combination, I'm gonna be way more powerful? Jumpin' Jehosephats, I had no idea.

Seriously, there are very few LA races that end up being worth even half the progression in terms of lost caster levels or class features, and taking them only on one side removes the problem of dividing it in half, since many of them are odd numbers. Don't only take the most broken, unreasonable combination and set that out as a typical example of how it works.

[Ikkitosen]

Don't only take the most broken, unreasonable combination and set that out as a typical example of how it works.

Not a typical example, but the extreme one - the type one should refer to when balancing things.

"Typical" players will rarely be a problem, but one "extreme" player in a normal game, taking advantage of the rules as pointed out here, sets the power level for the game, not his normal buddies.

[Zincorium]

Not a typical example, but the extreme one - the type one should refer to when balancing things.

"Typical" players will rarely be a problem, but one "extreme" player in a normal game, taking advantage of the rules as pointed out here, sets the power level for the game, not his normal buddies.

So everything should be balanced against the various overpowered builds? That's completely unworkable. Feral and Mineral warrior are dramatically overpowered and shouldn't be allowed in a campaign at their LA, if at all, any more than you should allow the worst of the divine metamagic cheese unrestricted.

Case-by-case judging is an absolute neccessity for a competent DM.

[Ikkitosen]

So everything should be balanced against the various overpowered builds? That's completely unworkable. Feral and Mineral warrior are dramatically overpowered and shouldn't be allowed in a campaign at their LA, if at all, any more than you should allow the worst of the divine metamagic cheese unrestricted.

Case-by-case judging is an absolute neccessity for a competent DM.

Unfortunately, especially in PbP games where you may not end up even playing, not many DMs have the time/desire to answer lots of questions about each character. It is necessary for the rules already in place to allow you to create balanced characters, with as little as possible chance for character power imbalance.

You can write whatever you want into the RAW with the caveat "If your DM allows it", and indeed that is the fallback position of games developers that lack playtesting ability and foresight (see WotC), but it is not something one should rely upon.

[Whamme]

Halving LA seems most fair. It IS possible to have worthwhile level adjusted characters - probably not casters, but possibly.

Incidently, consider the Ghost Sorceror. Possibly too strong for a level 5 Gestalt game, even with the d4 hit die.

[Zincorium]

Unfortunately, especially in PbP games where you may not end up even playing, not many DMs have the time/desire to answer lots of questions about each character. It is necessary for the rules already in place to allow you to create balanced characters, with as little as possible chance for character power imbalance.

That's not the case even when not playing gestalt. The rules that WotC has created are dramatically imbalanced even between core classes. Gestalt can exacerbate the situation, but it by no means creates it. And if the DM is too lazy to at least look at the character sheet of each player and make sure it's workable, then they have no right to complain when something is broken. You have to at least make an attempt.

You can write whatever you want into the RAW with the caveat "If your DM allows it", and indeed that is the fallback position of games developers that lack playtesting ability and foresight (see WotC), but it is not something one should rely upon.

Sigh. My main point was that it's a very, very biased comparison between the overly templated first example and the very poorly made second example. Like I said, the first takes the most broken, 'best cheese for your LA' templates that work for a melee type and combined them all, whereas the second takes fighter as a secondary, which adds feats and that's IT to the build. They are not in the same category, period.

[PinkysBrain]

Just put LA on one side if you are DMing and you want your players to play monstrous characters, just forbid LA otherwise ... anyone silly enough to take LA to both sides of a gestalt needs to be protected against himself, gestalt is high powered and with LA to both sides the only thing you can make is gimps.

[daggaz]

Core for the Win!!!

[Rigeld2]

Wait, you mean if I take the most broken templates for a melee character available, and then compare it to an extremely poor gestalt combination, I'm gonna be way more powerful? Jumpin' Jehosephats, I had no idea.

Buh?

He compared Templates+6 class levels of Gestalt (ECL6) to Templates+6 class levels normal (ECL12). The only difference was 2 feats and 2 stat points (and I'm not sure hes correct on those - you get those based on HD, of which he only has 6, so theyd be the same). So, a level 6 character is exactly as powerful as a level 12 character... gestalt isnt supposed to work like that.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Don't forget that Racial HD and all other items get compared to the other class for the purpose of determining your character's advancement and don't stack.

So if your character has 3d8 HD and a +3 BAB from his monster race and combines it with Fighter 5, he's only got 5d10 HD and a +5 BAB. Just like a normal class, monster HD and BAB don't stack in Gestalt. Or at least, that's always the way I've read it so that ECL characters are an option, not a benefit or a hindrance.

[Rigeld2]

Right... but LA doesnt have any HD or BAB. So you do nothing but gain.

[SpiderBrigade]

The way I've done it in the past is, LA gets subtracted from both sides (ie gestalt level 8, with +2 LA is ecl 10, still), but Racial Hit Dice can be taken on only one side (because RHD are essentially levels of bugbear, or whatever). One other thing I've allowed, is using a monster class on one side of the gestalt.

Now, I agree that this is probably a bad solution, but I don't think there is a really good one. If you just take LA from only one side, it's too strong - but if you take it from both, it's even more sucky than it normally is. So you have to start thinking about taking it from both sides, but somehow reducing the LA, which is complicated and messy.

Of course, I also think there's a big difference between taking Thri-Kreen on only one side of the gestalt, and taking 18 different +1 templates. Especially templates that many people think are too good for a +1 in regular play, let along gestalt