Trolls? Trolls!

[North]

So i want to put a tribe of barbarian Trolls into my game. Semi-intelligent. Dumb but not confused as to how pants work.

Something not standard would be cool, to throw them on a bit of a loop :D

any help with racial chars and ecl's would be appreciated

[Stormcrow]

Trolls with intelligence are a theme on my homebrew world, thought it gives them a pretty huge edge over the players. If you assume they are sensible, even without class levels they can now set ambushes and the like so they can easily take down a party of low level characters who SHOULD be able to take them.

A few traps, some potions... maybe even a Spirit or Dragon Shaman or the Shaman from OA? (I like trolls to have shaman). Im currently working on a Sorcerer cutdown called Witchdoctor for them.

They dont need class levels to be horrific, but i'd say a few barbarians, a ranger and a sorcerer would make them formidible.

[Seatbelt]

Just in general, keep this in mind. A well built barbarian is a PC-killer. You may not get a TPK, but you will probably get a dead player. Especailly assuming the party isint equiped to take one down. A group of troll barbarians is like a meat grinder. :P

[Thomas]

I explained how ECL works over here.

Trolls with warrior levels are one of my favorites. They make good higher-level mooks; every 2d8 hp and +2 BAB is only +1 CR... so you get trolls with +19 attack, Power Attack, and 16d8+96 (168 hp) at CR 10. Thank you, nonassociated levels.

If you want to make them interesting, use barbarians (raging trolls, baby!), clerics (shamans), sorcerers (witch-doctors), and so on. A 6th-level troll cleric or sorcerer is only CR 8, since the levels are unassociated (after the 6th one, it's +1 CR per +1 level in that class; however, a Cleric 6/Sorcerer 6 would be CR 11...).

[Zephyros]

Use Warcraft Trolls... Nasty canibalistic voodoo people ;)

[Deus Mortus]

I'd go with crafter's, like trolls who do nothing but cut stone and make statues of it, give them some earth spells and that should be fun.

[Ted_Stryker]

A 6th-level troll cleric or sorcerer is only CR 8, since the levels are unassociated (after the 6th one, it's +1 CR per +1 level in that class; however, a Cleric 6/Sorcerer 6 would be CR 11...).

Can PrCs give non-associated class levels? Because a Troll Cleric 6/Sorcerer 6/Mystic Theurge 6 for the low, low price of CR 14 would be pretty spiffy, IMO. Eat some Trollish Righteous Might and Divine Power, n00bs!

[SpiderBrigade]

I don't know if there's a specific RULE for it, but I'd say in that case the Mystic Theurge levels should count 1 for 1, since they're essentially additional levels in cleric and sorceror.

Plus, we're talking about CR here, which is supposed to be a guideline so you give your party appropriate challenges. What's the point of finding loopholes to put them against things that are way harder than their CR indicates?

I mean, sure, you can put your party up against a CR 8 Ikea Tarrasque, and they won't be able to kill it. But you can also say "Rocks fall, everyone dies."

[Thomas]

Can PrCs give non-associated class levels? Because a Troll Cleric 6/Sorcerer 6/Mystic Theurge 6 for the low, low price of CR 14 would be pretty spiffy, IMO. Eat some Trollish Righteous Might and Divine Power, n00bs!

I don't know, but in this case, at least, the PrC should be probably be associated; I'd count it as an extension of the cleric or sorcerer class levels, therefore putting the class level over the racial HD.

Always counting PrC levels as associated seems like a fair rule of thumb, at that; I'd probably do it that way.

[Duskwither]

Use Warcraft Trolls... Nasty canibalistic voodoo people ;)

I would say go with this one for four reasons.

1) There's quite a variety with those types, as you have Ice, Forest, Jungle etc, Trolls.

2) I'm biased and love Warcraft.

3) The trolls in there (With the exception of the Dark Troll) Have very few Racial Hit Dice, but still Fast healing/Regeneration to make them plenty deadly.

4) I'm biased and love Warcraft.

Edit: Zephyros? The same troll mage of Tho Bro?

[OzymandiasVolt]

If I didn't know better I'd say you were biased and love Warcraft.

[Ted_Stryker]

I'll get back to the Mystically Theurgical trolls in a bit, but there some pieces of information that would help in prompting more specific advice in answer to the request in the OP:

What level is the party, what are their character classes. Roughly speaking, how well equipped are they in terms of magic items? And so on...

[Bears With Lasers]

Just in general, keep this in mind. A well built barbarian is a PC-killer. You may not get a TPK, but you will probably get a dead player. Especailly assuming the party isint equiped to take one down. A group of troll barbarians is like a meat grinder. :P

Depends. What's their Will save?

[Ted_Stryker]

I don't know if there's a specific RULE for it, but I'd say in that case the Mystic Theurge levels should count 1 for 1, since they're essentially additional levels in cleric and sorceror.

Eh, sort of. Even though caster level advances for both classes, the troll would still only be getting 6 more hit dice instead of 12. That means fewer hit points, lower base/epic attack bonus, and lower saves than a troll getting an extra 6 levels in both cleric and sorcerer. We haven't even addressed the classic Mystic Theurge limitation that their spellcasting options are choked by a limited number of actions per round.

Plus, we're talking about CR here, which is supposed to be a guideline so you give your party appropriate challenges. What's the point of finding loopholes to put them against things that are way harder than their CR indicates?

I mean, sure, you can put your party up against a CR 8 Ikea Tarrasque, and they won't be able to kill it. But you can also say "Rocks fall, everyone dies."

Y'know, I do have a rudimentary working knowledge of how to balance encounters. Honest.

This thing might be underrated by 1 in CR. Maybe. I don't think there's any way it would be a CR 17 critter, though; it would be a meatsnack to a party of 4 17th level characters, in my estimation. Two of them would be a speed bump for a 19th level party, etc. Throwing one of these at a party that doesn't have access to 8th and 9th level spells might actually force them to expend 20% of their daily resources, just as a CR 14 encounter should.

I don't know, but in this case, at least, the PrC should be probably be associated; I'd count it as an extension of the cleric or sorcerer class levels, therefore putting the class level over the racial HD.

That's probably fair, but see also my reply to Spider Brigade.

Also, what about a Cleric 4/Sorcerer 4/Mystic Theurge 4? Those four MT levels could be split 2 and 2 between Cleric and Sorcerer.

Always counting PrC levels as associated seems like a fair rule of thumb, at that; I'd probably do it that way.

Yeah, probably, but I admit I got a kick out of thinking about this as a way to make the MT not totally suck.

[North]

Thanks everyone so far. WoW Trolls sound cool. Plus one of my players has the book for it. The major thing is the health regen I want to swamp them with level two trolls who can regen, lots. Bwa-ha-ha.

Regeneration and spiked great clubs. :D

[Thomas]

CR 17 seems about right to me. 6th-level cleric and 5th-level sorcerer spells, 12d8+12d4+144 hit points (assuming a base 10-11 in Con; average 255 hp), regeneration (he's going to have spells to protect himself from fire and acid, too)... sounds like something that might wreck a 13th-level party, with decent tactics.

CR 17 opponents are meatsnacks for parties of four 17th-level characters; they're supposed to expend 20% of their resources in a fight like that, which is very, very little.

[Merlin the Tuna]

If you want to make them interesting, use barbarians (raging trolls, baby!), clerics (shamans), sorcerers (witch-doctors), and so on. A 6th-level troll cleric or sorcerer is only CR 8, since the levels are unassociated (after the 6th one, it's +1 CR per +1 level in that class; however, a Cleric 6/Sorcerer 6 would be CR 11...).

Given how good Clerics are at crushinating things, one could also argue that those levels would be associated.

[Wehrkind]

I would be a little leery of giving a troll caster spells to avoid fire and acid damage and putting him in a group with other trolls. Even with plenty of mind affecting magic (you will have to note how much your party makes use of that) it could get rough to really bring them down. Without sufficient battlefield control, you might have a TPK followed by "But I fireballed twice! This is bull pocky!"

[daggaz]

I dunno, if I found some trolls and could recognize one of them as a shaman (or caster what have you), I would EXPECT fire and acid protection would be among the most important spells to that shaman.

Anyhow its not like its not been done before. The BBEG often has a pet troll, who he gives an amulet of protection from fire, or who he buffs up for the big fight. It hurts, but its doable.

Or check out the Troll Hunter.. 6th lvl ranger troll, who's first spell on the list is Resist Energy.

[Melrob]

Organised trolls can be deadly, hell unorganised trolls can be deadly if you don't have the resources to run or take them down. But I like the idea of a barbarically organised group of berserker trolls lead by their low level shaman bosshog...Tusk and the Zerks.

I've always liked trolls though. Never do lower level groups panic more than when they meet trolls for the first time

[Thomas]

I would be a little leery of giving a troll caster spells to avoid fire and acid damage and putting him in a group with other trolls. Even with plenty of mind affecting magic (you will have to note how much your party makes use of that) it could get rough to really bring them down. Without sufficient battlefield control, you might have a TPK followed by "But I fireballed twice! This is bull pocky!"

Are you kidding?

Dispel magic!

PCs who don't acquire the capability to dispel buffs after 5th level deserve to die. (Assuming it's not the DM's fault for purposefully keeping the capability from them.)

[Thomas]

Given how good Clerics are at crushinating things, one could also argue that those levels would be associated.

Not according to the rules. They don't give full BAB, and therefore aren't associated levels for a melee-based monster like a troll.