Can a monk take Ability Focus(stunning fist)?

[Dizlag]

Hey all,

I was wondering if a monk can take the feat Ability Focus (stunning fist) from the list of Monster Feats?

There are 535 questions in the Q&A thread and the first page hasn't been updated in a while. Forgive me if this was asked there somewhere in the 26+ pages. =)

Thanks in advance all!

Dizlag

[Ramza00]

Yes

Insert random text for I have to have 10 characters and yes is only 3

[Dizlag]

Thanks Ramza00! That's what I thought and I was gonna rule it that way anyways. Just wanted to make sure!

Dizlag

[Bears With Lasers]

I dunno, you should analyze it yourself. Is Stunning Fist a special attack?

(Hint: yes. One can probably just think these things through rather than asking the internet for confirmation.)

[NullAshton]

To support everyone else, there is a entry in the official FAQ that says that yes, ability focus works with a monk's stunning fist.

[Person_Man]

Yes.

But why would you want to waste a feat on Ability Focus? Marginally increasing the DC of an attack isn't really worth it.

[Matthew]

There are 535 questions in the Q&A thread and the first page hasn't been updated in a while. Forgive me if this was asked there somewhere in the 26+ pages. =)

Use the Search function if you are worried about that.

[ken-do-nim]

Yes.

But why would you want to waste a feat on Ability Focus? Marginally increasing the DC of an attack isn't really worth it.

Amazing how we always find ourselves differing on point of view. For a monk who delivers stuns as his bread & butter, +2 to the dc I think would make a big difference.

Btw, my monk just crested up to 15th and I've got my feat choice down to either Ability Focus Stunning Fist or Elusive Target. I guess I'll put you down for Elusive Target. My stun dc is currently 23, but 25 sounds so much more intimidating.

[Bears With Lasers]

Elusive Target is way too good to pass up.

[ken-do-nim]

Elusive Target is way too good to pass up.

I almost wrote "no need for you to chime in BWL, because you're the one who told me about elusive target in the first place".

Okay, in the next session - the adventure's climax - the party will probably be ambushed by "the evil party". Unfortunately, 2 of our 5 players will be missing the session, which means we will be outnumbered.

Ability Focus Stunning Fist Pros:
1. keep some enemies stunned to offset the odds

Elusive Target Pros:
1. I do have a nice dream combo of combat reflexes - combat expertise - spring attack - improved trip. I could spring up to one of them, attack full defensively; I don't care if I hit or not but now my ac is really high. Then I continue to move past the rest of the foes, and all those who take their attack of opportunity and miss I trip and counterattack.
2. Get myself flanked and make my dodge opponent use his first attack on his ally.
3. One of the foes for sure has power attack, which I can offset.

Hmmm... maybe you're right.

[Stephen_E]

Don't forget Elusive Target only cancels Power Attack from the target you selected to Dodge, and you select your Dodge target in your turn.

It would almost be worth it to spend a feat if there was a feat that allowed you to change/select your Dodge target as a immediate action. DM " The Rogue moves up to you, gaining flank, and attacks you", Player "Hold it. I make the Rogue my Dodge target as an immediate action". Much swearing then ensues from DM.

Stephen

[Bears With Lasers]

In fact, one of the Combat Focus feats from the PHBII lets you do just that (and has another benefit; I forget what it is).

[Darkshade]

Amazing how we always find ourselves differing on point of view. For a monk who delivers stuns as his bread & butter, +2 to the dc I think would make a big difference.

Btw, my monk just crested up to 15th and I've got my feat choice down to either Ability Focus Stunning Fist or Elusive Target. I guess I'll put you down for Elusive Target. My stun dc is currently 23, but 25 sounds so much more intimidating.

if your campaign uses OA may I suggest taking all the feats necessary for Meditation of War Mastery from page 81.
another +2 to your stunning fist, and +2 to your other pressure point attacks.

[ken-do-nim]

In fact, one of the Combat Focus feats from the PHBII lets you do just that (and has another benefit; I forget what it is).

I think the other benefit is that if you have 3 combat focus feats, your dodge benefit cruises up to +2 or something like that.

I totally want this feat, but to get it I have to first take the basic combat focus. Maybe if I break out of monk after level 16 and take 4 levels of fighter, I can spend the first 2 fighter bonus feats on these. Except ... except ... it doesn't really fit her personality to take a class that means she can never go back to monk.

[Bears With Lasers]

Maybe your DM can waive that restriction (it's silly and pointless).

If not well, Monk 16/Fighter 4. Nets you 16 BAB at 20th, too. and it's not like your character knows her classes, she just knows she's training to fight better.

[Person_Man]

Amazing how we always find ourselves differing on point of view. For a monk who delivers stuns as his bread & butter, +2 to the dc I think would make a big difference.

Btw, my monk just crested up to 15th and I've got my feat choice down to either Ability Focus Stunning Fist or Elusive Target. I guess I'll put you down for Elusive Target. My stun dc is currently 23, but 25 sounds so much more intimidating.

Feats should only be taken if they scale with levels (Power Attack, anything that grants extra attacks) or grant special abilities that you can't otherwise gain with reasonably priced magic items (Elusive Target, Shock Trooper).

And pretty much any Monk with a good number of Stunning Fist should take Freezing the Lifeblood when they qualify for it (+10 BAB, so 14th level for a strait Monk, sooner for most multi-class Monks). This paralyzes their enemies for 1d4+1 rounds instead of Stunning them for 1 round, a far more powerful effect (make sure to carry a pick for all the Coup de Graces you'll be doing. It uses up a Stunning Fist use, but its not Stunning Fist, its a seperate ability.

So taking Ability Focus for Stunning Fist is on its face a bad choice, because it doesn't scale, doesn't grant a special ability, and it will be useless once its replaced by Freezing the Lifeblood.

[Stephen_E]

Feats should only be taken if they scale with levels (Power Attack, anything that grants extra attacks) or grant special abilities that you can't otherwise gain with reasonably priced magic items (Elusive Target, Shock Trooper).

And pretty much any Monk with a good number of Stunning Fist should take Freezing the Lifeblood when they qualify for it (+10 BAB, so 14th level for a strait Monk, sooner for most multi-class Monks). This paralyzes their enemies for 1d4+1 rounds instead of Stunning them for 1 round, a far more powerful effect (make sure to carry a pick for all the Coup de Graces you'll be doing. It uses up a Stunning Fist use, but its not Stunning Fist, its a seperate ability.

So taking Ability Focus for Stunning Fist is on its face a bad choice, because it doesn't scale, doesn't grant a special ability, and it will be useless once its replaced by Freezing the Lifeblood.

Actually what I take from your post is that one should take "Freeze the Lifeblood" and then take Ability Focus on Freeze the Lifeblood.

While in general I agree regarding feats that scale, the exception IMHO are feats that give a bonus to Save type stuff that scales. Thus Ability Focus & Spell Penetration (including anything that increases CL) stuff are worthwhile. Feat increases to BAB aren't generally worth it because AC on opponents doesn't really scale.

Stephen

[ken-do-nim]

Feats should only be taken if they scale with levels (Power Attack, anything that grants extra attacks) or grant special abilities that you can't otherwise gain with reasonably priced magic items (Elusive Target, Shock Trooper).

It is too simplistic to make blanket statements like that. Ability Focus improves your chances of success by 10%. So if you use it 10/day, you'll succeed one extra time. If you don't think that's useful enough, fine, but what if ability focus granted a +4? Would you take it then, or still say it didn't scale by level so forget it?

And pretty much any Monk with a good number of Stunning Fist should take Freezing the Lifeblood when they qualify for it (+10 BAB, so 14th level for a strait Monk, sooner for most multi-class Monks). This paralyzes their enemies for 1d4+1 rounds instead of Stunning them for 1 round, a far more powerful effect (make sure to carry a pick for all the Coup de Graces you'll be doing. It uses up a Stunning Fist use, but its not Stunning Fist, its a seperate ability.

Freezing the lifeblood only affects humanoids, so you have to look at the campaign you are in and determine if that type of opponent occurs often enough. In my case, it doesn't. We are just finishing Deep Horizons (monstrous humanoids, aberrations, elementals, outsiders) and moving on to Lord of the Iron Fortress & Bastion of Something or other. I doubt there will be any humanoids in this campaign's future. (As a monk, I am particularly worried, because I will have a hard time getting through outsider dr).

So taking Ability Focus for Stunning Fist is on its face a bad choice, because it doesn't scale, doesn't grant a special ability, and it will be useless once its replaced by Freezing the Lifeblood.

So in my summary, you have to decide if succeeding 1 out of 10 more times when you stun is worth a feat choice. (It certainly is you follow it up with Sun School)

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Elusive Target is nice. But... Elusive Dance really sucks.

Elusive Dance

[General, Fighter]

(DR333 p88)

Perform (dance): 5 ranks

During your action, you may designate an opponent who may not make Attacks of Opportunity against you.
If you have the feat Dodge, your designated Dodge and Elusive Dance opponent must be the same creature.

EDIT: uhh. yah. You'r right Laser Bear guy. Wanted to gauge a reaction =_)

[Bears With Lasers]

Um... how on earth is that better? AoOs are easily avoided via, say, Tumble. Meanwhile, Elusive target makes your enemies hit each other, negates Power Attack damage, and lets you trip people when you move away from them.

[ken-do-nim]

Hey so I officially told my DM I'm going with Elusive Target. When I first mentioned the feat to him several months ago, he warned that I'd only get 1 of the abilities up front, so I'll see what he says now. He probably won't let me know until I show up for the next game day.

Well, just for fun, looking ahead to my 18th level feat, my front-runners are:
1. Ability Focus Stunning Fist
2. Deadly Defense (out of Complete Scoundrel) - since I use combat expertise all the time, might as well do more damage as I do it
3. Water Splitting Stone - help my unarmed attacks with getting through dr
4. Defensive Throw - nice synergy with elusive target, now my flanking dodge opponent automatically misses, hits his ally, then I trip him and counterattack. Only problem is that at these high levels everything is large, huge, gargantuan, etc. and I could get countertripped (though I can drop my kama)
5. Superior Unarmed Strike - if I haven't picked up a monk's belt and I multiclassed at 17th.

Her current feats are:
Human-Dodge
1-Mobility
M1-Improved Unarmed Strike
M1-Stunning Fist
M2-Combat Reflexes
3-Weapon Focus Unarmed Attack
6-Combat Expertise
M6-Improved Trip
9-Improved Natural Attack Unarmed Strike
12-Spring Attack
15-Elusive Target

Comments: I am still debating as to whether to go kensai starting at 17th, so if I do I need weapon focus & combat expertise. I use combat expertise and spring attack all the time, and they have a nice synergy with the 3rd benefit of elusive target.

Another switch I just started considering is going fighter at 17th. In this case, I would get a fighter bonus feat at 17th, 18th, and 20th, and those would be either:
F1-Combat Focus
F2-Combat Defense - to change dodge opponent as immediate action
F4-Combat Vigor - to get fast healing 4
or
F1-Deadly Defense (if it's a fighter bonus feat)
F2-Improved Critical Unarmed Strike
F4-Weapon Specialization Unarmed Strike

Thoughts?

[Bears With Lasers]

Y'know what, take Psychic Warrior one less feat, psionic powers. Or Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2, for the most feats. I recommend the Combat Focus ones you have listed.

[ken-do-nim]

Y'know what, take Psychic Warrior one less feat, psionic powers. Or Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2, for the most feats. I recommend the Combat Focus ones you have listed.

Quite the intriguing alternative. Fighter 4 of course gets me not only one more feat but also that 6 attack flurry. Psychic warrior 4 gets me psionic lion's charge, which combined even with the regular 5 attack flurry is awesome.

I've had many visions for this character, but the one I had stuck with the longest was monk 16/kensai 4 through 20. Kensai would net her holy hands. At 21 she would take the feat that gets through epic damage reduction, at 24 she'd take penetrate damage reduction silver and at 27 she'd take penetrate damage reduction cold-iron forged. Thus, at 27th level, her hands would penetrate magic, lawful, adamantine, holy, silver, cold-iron forged, and epic damage reduction while doing 4d8 + lots of extra bonuses depending upon whatever kensai powers she puts on it. Combined with a robe of eyes to see all possible opponents and a winged cloak, she can therefore get to any foe and damage them (well okay, a projected image could still fool her).

So I'll have to decide which vision works best. Thanks for the suggestions!

[Bears With Lasers]

If the game is going epic, stick to Monk 20. Epic Bonus Feats are just that good, even if you only get them every 5 levels.

...actually, every 5 levels... bugger it, take Fighter or PsyWar or both. Or Kensai.

[ken-do-nim]

If the game is going epic, stick to Monk 20. Epic Bonus Feats are just that good, even if you only get them every 5 levels.

...actually, every 5 levels... bugger it, take Fighter or PsyWar or both. Or Kensai.

Yeah, I want to talk to the game designer who decided that monks should only get an epic feat every 5 levels. Maybe hang him upside down over a cliff and make him talk

Well, I've still got a while to stew on this. First I've got to live past this next session after all, and try out elusive target for the first time (or whatever portions of it the DM lets me have).

[the_tick_rules]

i'd reccommend pain touch from comlete warrior for extra umph from ya stunning attacks. it nauseates (makes your opponet unable to do anything but a single move action) for one round after they're stunned. The +2 to dc from ability focus does sound a bit mild for me, but hey it's your character. Oh and yeah you can take it. But have you taken inmproved natural attack yet? It's like natural spell for monks, if your a monk and don't take it your gonna be asked why?

[ken-do-nim]

i'd reccommend pain touch from comlete warrior for extra umph from ya stunning attacks. it nauseates (makes your opponet unable to do anything but a single move action) for one round after they're stunned. The +2 to dc from ability focus does sound a bit mild for me, but hey it's your character. Oh and yeah you can take it. But have you taken inmproved natural attack yet? It's like natural spell for monks, if your a monk and don't take it your gonna be asked why?

Yeah I've got improved natural attack. As soon as I pick up a monk's belt, I jump to 4d8!

You know, I had my eye on pain touch back when I first got Sword & Fist. Back then I recall it had a wis19 prereq so I couldn't take it, but maybe now that's changed (and my periapt of wisdom puts me over anyway). So I'll consider it, thanks for reminding me.

Maybe +2 isn't enough, but I've got to tell you when I stun an opponent it changes everything. For instance, in a first round of combat against a big nasty, my monk usually moves up spring attacking; the rest of the party waits for her. If she manages to stun it, she runs around to its back to give a flank. If she doesn't, she rejoins the party. If the monster is stunned, the party can move up without fear of attacks of opportunity and surround it. Then on their next turns, they get full attacks. So pain touch would be sweet because when the party has moved up and surrounded it, it only gets a move action yet can't go anywhere because it is surrounded. But of course that's predicated on the stun working, hence the need for ability focus...

Too bad those ki straps in Sword & Fist that give a +5 to the stun dc aren't legal anymore.

[Person_Man]

It is too simplistic to make blanket statements like that. Ability Focus improves your chances of success by 10%. So if you use it 10/day, you'll succeed one extra time. If you don't think that's useful enough, fine, but what if ability focus granted a +4? Would you take it then, or still say it didn't scale by level so forget it?

You've pretty much made my case for me Ken. Getting 1 extra successful Stunning fist use per day in exchange for a feat is a total waste. Compare it to Snap-Kick, Knock-Down, or Hold the Line, which give you an extra attack pretty much every other round. How is that not better? Even if Ability Focus gave you a +4 bonus (which it doesn't) getting extra attacks would be far better.

And I think you're nit-picking on Freezing the Lifeblood. Yes, it only works on humanoids. But the largest catagory of enemies out there. Unless your DM specifically tells you you're going to be playing in a humanoid-less campaign, its a pretty safe bet to take this Save or Lose power.

[ken-do-nim]

You've pretty much made my case for me Ken. Getting 1 extra successful Stunning fist use per day in exchange for a feat is a total waste. Compare it to Snap-Kick, Knock-Down, or Hold the Line, which give you an extra attack pretty much every other round. How is that not better? Even if Ability Focus gave you a +4 bonus (which it doesn't) getting extra attacks would be far better.

Sad to say, I can't honestly say I'm familiar with snap-kick, knock-down, or hold the line. I'll have to look them up when I get home and report back. All I ever hear on this forum is leap attack this, shock troop that, so I'm more familiar with those

And I think you're nit-picking on Freezing the Lifeblood. Yes, it only works on humanoids. But the largest catagory of enemies out there. Unless your DM specifically tells you you're going to be playing in a humanoid-less campaign, its a pretty safe bet to take this Save or Lose power.

Well as I said we're going through Lord of the Iron Fortress and Bastion of Broken Souls. All I know is that we're going to the outer planes. I'm trying to acquire a sacred evil outsider bane weapon. I doubt there will be too many humanoids. I read on the internet that at the end of Bastion we will have to fight a solar. My monk will do precisely one thing in that fight, which is dimension door the other party members next to the solar and say, "Okay, now you deal with it." No way she'll be able to hit that thing's armor class.

[ken-do-nim]

Okay, as promised I took a look at Person_Man's suggested feats.

Snap-kick: couldn't find, but I did find "Roundabout kick". You get an extra attack if you get a critical. Well ... if the odds dictate that you get a critical every 30 attacks (figure 1 out of 20 then half of those odds successfully confirm), I feel like for me it's 1 out of 100. To make it more desirable you'd of course want improved critical unarmed strike, and roundabout kick also comes with a prerequisite of power attack, something I don't advise for monks because (a) they're at 3/4 BAB and (b) not using a two-handed weapon.

Knock-down: I couldn't find it. What book?

Hold the line: Attack of opportunity when you get charged. Honestly, I get charged in combat probably less than I get a critical. Most of the time, my character protects the party's rear, because as a monk with fast movement I can rush to the front and attack in one round anyway. Also keep in mind - and this is why the heedless charge ability of shock trooper is overrated - natural cavern floor counts as difficult terrain which negates charging.

Ability focus stunning fist is still looking good. Getting one more successful stun every 10 tries - which equates to roughly one more per session - helps a lot because stuns are so useful. Really the downside to investing in a stunning feat is that constructs/elementals/undead can't be stunned.

Actually another good feat granting extra attacks is close-quarters fighting. I must get improved grabbed at least twice a session.