GMing for younger gamers.

[Spasticteapot]

In return for help from a local Linux guru, I'm likely going to be running a game of D&D for his kids and their friends. I'm pretty rusty, but I'd like to see if anyone here has any reccomendations.

They've been using their dad's old AD&D (original 1st edition - the ooold ones!), and know the basics.

So, anyway...

1. Print out a chunk of the SRD and give it to the kids so they can learn 3.5 without buying the nastily expensive books. I can run 2e and 3.5e, and even "red box original" D&D, but I'm not learning a new system. If anyone could point me to the useful sections (rules, character creation, et cetera), I'd be grateful.

2. Low magic. Magic makes headaches, and as soon as the kids start using it effectively, I'm obligated to do the same. (A single sleep spell can KO a whole party, allowing for an end result that, at Belkar put it, rhymes with "hitting their goats".)

I was thinking of simply limiting it to bards only. This keeps down the magic level, and restricts the use of magic from many low-level enemies. (After all, who ever heard of a Bugbear with a good singing voice?)

As an added bonus, this brings in all the assorted fun bard abilities, and the multiple abilitiy scores required for a successful bard mean that not everyone could be one, even if they wanted to.

3. An obviously kid-friendly setting with itsy-bitsy villages, and no big cities. After all, a hamlet of fifty people can't really support hookers.

I was thinking of basing it off Norse mythology - if only in terms of locale and monsters. The gods would be the standard-issue gods, unless, of course, someone can point me to an easy - to - use set of deities that I don't need to pay for.

There's also a strong Norse tradition of bards.

Any other suggestions?

[Quietus]

I think you'd have a problem with using Bards - my suggestion would be to limit it to the "Main" classes - Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric. Maybe replace Sorceror with Wizard, since that would be easier to deal with, and search out a sorceror-esque solution to the Cleric. I'm sure that if one doesn't already exist (does the cloistered cleric prepare spells, guys, or does it cast spontaneously?), then it'd be easy enough to homebrew one. Give it all the same stats as a sorceror, except domains give extra spells known and they always know Heal spells, instead of getting a familiar. Easy enough. Makes everything nice and easy - the players pick which spells they want their character to know, makes for a shorter list.

I don't know much about Norse mythology, so I can't help you there - any advice I could give would be related to handling children, which I assume you probably already have some idea of how to do. I apologize if that last sentence wasn't English, it's almost 4 AM. Speaking of children - just how old are these kids you'll be running the game for?

[AoiRorentsu]

Well, if you want sorceror-esque divine caster, try the favored soul- it's not in the SRD i don't think, but it's the closest thing I can think of. It's from a new book called Complete Divine.

Also, be wary that the SRD barely teaches you jack about anything at all. It is, as the "R" signifies, a reference. There's little explanation, particularly fluff for classes and races. Your players may not get what a "bard" is, even. Could be good for granting greater creativity but also may be confusing to new players. I would suggest allowing the cleric and the sorceror.

Also, as someone who has played both 2nd and 3rd editions, I have to say that the 3rd edition is much easier to learn than previous additions were. Once you get the core mechanic (everything is a d20 roll with some modifiers against a difficulty class of some kind), the rest is just adding the appropriate modifiers for the situation.

[daggaz]

Limit it to fighter, barbarian, cleric, sorcerer (or wizard but sorcerer probably easier for them) and rogue. Core only. Magic isn't that hard, and at low levels, its actually really easy (and really useful). Besides, why limit them so hard? If you try and run a game with just melee, you will quickly find the battles become mundane and monotonous, and you will be missing out on much needed buffs and heals. Besides, by the time they are high enough level to start casting wierd spells, you will long since figured out the system. The SRD contains everything you need to know, except the xp tables for PC's (just tier it, so each level takes 1000 more xp than the last), and the treasure tables for encounters if Im not mistaken, but you can find those elsewhere. Oh and its missing some of the fluffier descriptions about combat etc.. If you got a good sense of logic, you can figure the rules out. Start by reading the combat section very carefully, make sure you understand the AoO rules. Then work out the differences with all the classes..

[Wehrkind]

I dunno, I think a very low magic Norse setting would be kind of fun. You might want to prep the kids with a few good myths or a movie that is setting related (none come to mind other than the Lord of the Rings) to get them in the mindset. It is often a lot easier to get kids to imagine all the same things if you show it to them first, otherwise they tend to think in as many different directions as they have eyes.

Edit: Oh, also, I would give each one some special treasure off the bat. Let them pick from a list if you would like, but something to make them feel special. That seems to be key to keeping kids interested, is standing out how they want to, which is usually not the character centric way adults consider standing out. Consider that most childrens' cartoons have the main character be unusually special in some way, either magical, or with some special powerful heirloom. Heck, watch one of the old Dungeons and Dragons cartoons on YouTube for ideas. just remember that Kids =! Subtle, and you will be fine.

[daggaz]

"kids wanting to stand out in the way they want to" is exactly the reason I thought banning normal spellcasters would be a bad idea. I can easily see the look of furrowed dissappointment when little Suzy doesn't get to be the new Harry Potter.Besides, the books are designed around magic. Building a low magic setting requires extra work, figuring out how to balance a group against monsters, how to heal, how to get around all the existing rules for high magic, etc..

[Thomas]

Magic works fine with younger gamers. Keep the games low-level and don't hand out too many extra spells (the standard 2 new spells per level for wizards is fine), and you'll be fine.

[Wehrkind]

Well, I figure it is easier on little Suzy if being Harry Potter is right out, hence the focus on more low magic settings, like Lord of the Rings. There is still healing to be had, particularly through items (give that bard a lute of cure light wounds and win.) I don't think that most young gamers would be happy with how limited low level spell casters are, especially expecting Harry Potter type mastery at a young age.

[WrathOfLife]

Well, I learnt in a simlair way. Friend brought an old tomb of a book which turned out to be an orginal D&D box set thingy, with the big ol pretty dragon on it and started from there.

Magic adds a great element to it. Speically if you don't let it hold fast and strong to the rules. Remember, kids don't want rules and boundries, they want fun, excitment and mystery. Maybe that floating disk can be used to push the fighter along to the dragon (injuried naturally with no questions as to the morals of killing it) so it can get a full attack in? It helps make them feel clever for working out a cool way of playing and it helps encourage them to read further into the rules to allow them to find more interesting ways to do things.

[Bender]

I wouldn't let them read the rules themselves (not in the beginning at least), they will easily misinterpret them, preferably in a way which favours them and they won't like being less powerful than they thought they were.
I would start with a short explanation of the basics (no need to go into detail on skills and feats, or even things like flanking or tumbling in battle). Prepare maybe some basic characters to let them choose from (let them roll the stats themselves). Then, you can start with a kind of tutorial adventure, where they gradually learn the rules (how to use certain skills, special actions in combat...)

I wouldn't allow animal companions, mounts or familiars: children might expect too much and others might be jealous they don't get a pet (which an animal companion is not, but they might consider it to be)
I would allow spellcasting

[Were-Sandwich]

We still don't know how old these kids are. It could make a difference. For instance, itsa lot easier to run a game for 15 year olds (who people insist on calling children) than fr 11 year olds.

[Spasticteapot]

First...thanks to everyone who replied!

We still don't know how old these kids are. It could make a difference. For instance, itsa lot easier to run a game for 15 year olds (who people insist on calling children) than fr 11 year olds.

I believe the median age is 12.

The reason I'm worried about magic is that I'm pretty darn good at using it. Color spray and sleep are both nasty 1st-level spells that, if cast repeatedly, have a good chance of knocking out 1st or 2nd level fighters and barbarians, allowing the caster's buddies (likely goblins or even kobolds) to run up and prod the spellcasters to death.

Casters also have very little HP. Freddie the Sorcerer will have 6-7 HP at 2nd level, while Barry the Barbarian could easily have 24hp. Guess what happens when Freddie wants to join the melee, too?

Heck, one Magic Missle is enough to take him out.

[Thomas]

I wouldn't let them read the rules themselves (not in the beginning at least), they will easily misinterpret them, preferably in a way which favours them and they won't like being less powerful than they thought they were.

You know, in 12+ years of gaming (starting at age 10-11, often as a GM after the first few times), I've never told, asked, suggested, or expected my players to read the rules to any game I'm running. I've just taught them as we go along. The first few times, characters are created together... at some point, often during pauses in the game, players read bits of the rules... and so on.

It's worked great so far.


Keep games low-level. The kids probably don't know how much experience they're supposed to get, anyway, so they won't feel cheated; give out less than the book suggests. At low levels, fights are short and sweet, and every roll can be a "triumph" in itself. (I can't imagine kids having the patience for the long, tactical - even strategic - fights a few levels up. Then again, I guess I was playing games like Fantasy General at age 12, so maybe they'd manage...) Hand out just the amount of magic items you think they'll need, and make those items feel special. (Heck, that applies to games with players of any age...)

[Swordguy]

First...thanks to everyone who replied!



I believe the median age is 12.

The reason I'm worried about magic is that I'm pretty darn good at using it. Color spray and sleep are both nasty 1st-level spells that, if cast repeatedly, have a good chance of knocking out 1st or 2nd level fighters and barbarians, allowing the caster's buddies (likely goblins or even kobolds) to run up and prod the spellcasters to death.

Casters also have very little HP. Freddie the Sorcerer will have 6-7 HP at 2nd level, while Barry the Barbarian could easily have 24hp. Guess what happens when Freddie wants to join the melee, too?

Heck, one Magic Missle is enough to take him out.

So throw non-magic-wielding baddies at them. If you know one MM will take the caster out, then don't do that. You can choose how to run your game, and you probably shouldn't pull out all the stops against the kids like you might against adults who've been playing since Chainmail (um...the 70's version).

Cut em a break. The world won't end if you do. Just make sure Vogons don't exist in your campaign, and if they do, they have no interest in bypasses.

[Kesnit]

The reason I'm worried about magic is that I'm pretty darn good at using it. Color spray and sleep are both nasty 1st-level spells that, if cast repeatedly, have a good chance of knocking out 1st or 2nd level fighters and barbarians, allowing the caster's buddies (likely goblins or even kobolds) to run up and prod the spellcasters to death.

So don't cast repeatedly.

Casters also have very little HP. Freddie the Sorcerer will have 6-7 HP at 2nd level, while Barry the Barbarian could easily have 24hp. Guess what happens when Freddie wants to join the melee, too?

Heck, one Magic Missle is enough to take him out.

As others have said, adjust as necessary to keep the kids from dying. Barry the Barbarian could fail his Will save against Sleep and get slaughtered just as easily as Freddie getting hit with MM.

Talk up how much fun magic is to Freddie. And maybe you won't have to. Maybe there'll be a kid who would love to play a mage. Meet the kids, find out what they want, and base your game around that.

[Siberys]

I started at ten, It took me about three years to have a full, complete understanding of the rules, but I was teaching myself. With a mentor, It wont ber hard.

I suggest the 3E starter set, or the basic sets. Work like a charm

[Greenfaun]

A couple things-

I like your norse low-magic idea, personally. If one or more of your kids is dead-set on playing harry potter, then it's true, it's a bit awkward, but I think it could be cool. I would recommend allowing druids and bards for casters (only call the bards "skalds" and say their magic comes from knowing how to use magic runes) because then you've got various useful support and summoning magic, and two classes that can heal, without having to use the conflicting fluff of wizards etc.

This would also allow you to make the adventuring party all from the same village, going a-viking together for money and glory or just to escape the monotony of farming and fishing. It might be nice of you, if you take this approach, to give the party a small boat of their own and give all the characters a few ranks in Profession: sailor and Survival to reflect their background.


Second, the movie "The Thirteenth Warrior" offers a pretty good look at life in scandinavia at this time. It's a little romantic and fantastic, but it's a more realistic portrayal of the culture and lifestyle than any other movie I know of. In a nutshell, it's the story of an Arab courtier & poet who gets assigned to the north country as an ambassador as punishment for having an affair with the wrong woman. He gets roped into going on an old-fashioned saga-style adventure with a bunch of Northmen. One of the things that makes the movie so good is the reversal of "otherness"- the modern audience has an easier time identifying with the civilized arab than the proud, primitive scandinavians. Anyway, check it out, it might make a good activity for the first night you get together, perhaps along with making characters.

[Grknhydn]

Well, I'll have to agree with spastic in saying that magic is DEFINITELY not the way to go when running in a campaign with children. It really is too complicated for a group of 12 year olds. The best thing, I have noticed, for a low-level, low age, low magic campaign has always been the Lord of the Rings setting, however it doesn't really have the availability of that Norse Diety feel that you said you were looking for.

When I run into something like this, what I tend to do is say, "Screw it, I'll make my own little world!" It's really not all that difficult, considering. Most players, even 12 year olds, are pretty good about the whole, "This is a Generic Fantasy setting, only (X exception)."
Then you can add stuff in as things go on, and you don't have to worry about game lawyers that say things like (*Starts his Simpsons Comic book guy voice*), "Oh, but the Elves of Derescor in the book, "Elves of extremely long names" hadn't developed Composite long bows until 1672 of the Verash Era, and this is CLEARLY set in 1650 due to the mention earlier of the Veradin Dwarves being defeated by the Lich Bobo not two months ago!"

Ahem. That went on a rant there... My point is, I would recommend having the characters stick to Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Rogue, and Bard. The Barbarian would be fine if you did the math for them on the benefits of Barbarian Rage. It is always good to have at least one Cleric, but if you are going to let them play one, you should probably do their spell list for them, to make things simpler. Sorcerers lean towards the "Getting too complicated" phase, as the saving throws can really get confusing for younger folks.

Anyways, that's me trying to help. If they aren't cheering for you, then you should blame Al Gore for inventing the internet.

The best darn Dwarven Bard in the world,
~Grknhydn Drtnrdnhrdn

[clarkvalentine]

Do not underestimate the ability of a 12 year old brain to grasp complicated rules. I learned rules for complex RPGs in my teen years far quicker than I do now (mid-30s). In my experience, preteen and teen gamers eat complicated rules up - they love it.

Young brains are sponges, as long as the owner of said brain is interested in the material.

[jjpickar]

I don't think anyone is giving the 12 year olds any slack. If they can figure out the intricacies of cellphones and the internet (I have over two decades behind me and I still can't figure out how to text message effectively ) then they can probably learn how to lob fireballs.

Also, low magic and realistic settings probably won't appeal that much to kids (unless you intend to run epic battles on the scale of Lord of the Rings fairly often). But I don't know what they like and if I were you, I'd ask them what they like before planning out a whole adventure only to get a few sessions in and realize that they hate it. Kids tend to be a fickle lot in general.

[Penguinizer]

I recommend asking beforehand if they want a simpler, less magic based setting, or a normal one, with normal amounts of magic.

[Swordguy]

Do not underestimate the ability of a 12 year old brain to grasp complicated rules. I learned rules for complex RPGs in my teen years far quicker than I do now (mid-30s). In my experience, preteen and teen gamers eat complicated rules up - they love it.

Young brains are sponges, as long as the owner of said brain is interested in the material.

Fair enough. What I'm saying, though, is would he blow large numbers of sleep spells on any given party of 1st level characters, regardless of player age? The answer really ought to be "no". So don't do it for these guys.

[GolemsVoice]

I also think, no matter what setting you play, explain their classes to them.
Like: "You are a fighter, like Aragorn for example, that means you have armor and a shiny sword. Fighters often act like this... You are the wizar, wizards are strange and mystical. Whizards like doning this..." And yeah, give them some funny magical gadget like all the heroes of the series. One which is not game-defining, but is cool and useful to have around.

[estradling]

I’ve taught my 7 year-old how to play an old space-ship combat game with all kind of dice rolls, charts, and maneuvers… So I can attest that if the interest is there then learning will follow…



I am planning to introduce him to DND shortly… I’ll let him pick from some pregenerated character sheets and put him right into some kind of fight… Each round I fully expect to have to tell him what his options are and in many ways guide his actions to the better ones… In the end I hope to give him enough choices to feel that its ‘his’ actions while taking care of everything that would just be over his head… After a few combats he’ll start asking why things are the way they are and that’s when he’ll get the rest.

You’ve got an older group of players so you can spend more time explaining, but I think you’ll be better of showing them by doing then spending a lot of time talking.

[MrNexx]

1) What age are we talking about?
2) If they've been playing 1st edition, you might want to try it. OSRIC is available for free, and will give you what you need to know without much hassle. If you know 2nd edition, there's not much new to learn. It'll make the transition simpler, and a lot of the changes you want to make.
3) What age are we talking about? I've done this several times, but so much comes down to the ages, genders, and psychologies of the kids.

[Black Hand]

I've had some experience on DM'ing kids. I had introduced 2 of my boys last year, they were 9 & 5 at the time, and I had to introduce it easily to them.

I find with young players, let them start off as a fighter to get used to things, and let them roll their stats. Second for ones this young, pick out the skills and feats for them and give a quick explanation on how they do. Power attack and Cleave is usually the way to go. As for skills, don't get too deep into it really, but mention the skill when they want to try do something related to it...spot, search, hide..etc.

With the younger one, since he couldn't read, it was just a matter of opening the PHB and having him pick a picture of the armor and weapons he wanted, along with the picture of the race. His char sheet was done differently as it had to be visual, so the HP, and armor class were a heart and shield respectivly, as with other things like attack & initiative (the letters ususally work for that)

After a few games to get them used to the process on how a game goes...some roleplaying, some combat, some suspense. They both were interested in trying a little bit more....the now 10 year old had branched his character to be a fighter/warmage (I guess blowing stuff up is easier) and the now 6 year old is a fighter/rogue. And both have the basic knack for it.

If your group is primarily 12 year olds it should be much easier. Just give them the base in mechanics for their characers...attack AC HP's and such. Leave the saves until they have to use them, then they'll have a better understanding on when they're needed. Just start off simple and be flexable as they're going to suggest things such as tactics or actions that may not necessarily mesh with how the official rules work right away.

[Awetugiw]

If you want to make the players feel special, make the encouters against a large amount of low CR enemies. Defeating high-CR bad guy just isn't as epic as hacking/casting your way through loads of low-CR enemies.

Of course this doesn't count for epic enemies like dragons, but one owuld need pretty high level characters for that anyway.

[valadil]

I don't see anything wrong with giving them spells. You might want to give out a smaller list of spells, or not use spells until the PCs have used them. I'm sure they can use sleep just as effectively as you can.

I agree with the posters who said that you shouldn't give them the rules too. I look back very fondly on RPGs where nobody knew the system but the GM. We just tried to represent out ideas of what a character was like, instead of worrying about powerful builds and such. By the time we were 14 or 15, some players had their own rule books, and people were starting to powergame. If they want the rules, have them ready, but don't feel like you have to give everyone all the rules ahead of time.

If you're still worried about magic and such, you could give out premade characters. Maybe explain that you're doing a demo game to get them used to the system and that after that they can design their own. I wouldn't assign anybody any characters - just make 2-3 times as many as you have players and pick and choose who you want to play.

Also, if you're still limiting magic, I don't think bard is the way to go. Bards rarely get the chance to shine. They're good at a lot of things, but unless it's a very small game, the bard will never be the best at any one thing. Each player should have a turn in the spotlight, and the player who is the bard has less of a chance at getting that. I'm not saying bards are bad, but they're really hard to do well, and you wouldn't want to discourage someone by making someone who wants to play Harry Potter play something else entirely.

[Were-Sandwich]

I'm with the "don't misunderestimate the 12 year olds" bit. My brothers 12 and he understood the casting system fine first time round. He then went on to say prepared casting sucked and he wanted to play a sorceror. I love my little bro sometimes.

[Quietus]

Definately don't understimate 12 year olds. They've got all the basic math skills needed, and then some. If they're interested, and you have patience, you can teach them the basics of combat within an hour.

I still think that my suggestions above are probably the best option; Fighter, Sorceror, Rogue, and Cleric. 12 year olds should have enough of a head on their shoulders to understand how to make magic work. Start things out by asking them what kind of characters they want to make, and describe the options. Fighters are really good with weapons, like Aragorn. Rogues are theives sneaky and good at breaking into places. Clerics are alright in a fight, but they can also heal people. And Sorcerors aren't good in a fight at all, but they can cast spells to make up for that.

Odds are, you'll have them give you a lot more information than just that - and even if not, you should be able to ask questions and pry more information out of them if need be. I don't think a low-magic setting would be appropriate, however. Having a setting where magic is common makes a new player feel like they're surrounded by this strange new world, and if an enemy is throwing flashy things around, and they can still beat them, that makes them feel more important. It's YOUR job, as a DM, to only throw things at them that they can handle. Go easy on them for the first little while, they're kids.