KRUD! That monk based my wizard again!

[Tryranus_Magus]

So how do you think you keep a monk with Dimension Door from basing your wizard?

I have some solutions, but wanted to hear some of your tactics to keep a VERY fast, VERY strong, VERY big monk from basing your wizard in the first round and ending an epic fight before it even gets started.

This player is very good at what he does. He has created a superb Mage Slayer without using the actual Mage Slayer prestige class. Max ranks of Spot and Listen, Blind-Fight make invisibility less useful. Dimension Door with Sun School feat and a VERY high initiative give him the jump almost everytime. I certainly don't mind. I think it's an excellent character. And he's certainly not the most 'powerful' character in the party. But he does present the biggest threat to end the battle in the first couple of rounds. I don't metagame against him, but a smart spellcaster who has scried on the party does know of his capabilities. So an intelligent defense is expected.

Like I said, I have some tactics that I have used in the past with moderate success and I don't want to create an impossible situation that negates all the hard work that he has put into his character. But lengthening the battle would be more fun for all. What do you think?

Thanks,
Scout Sniper

[Bears With Lasers]

Anticipate Teleportation, a third-level spell from the Spell Compendium, or its Greater 6th-level brother.

Contingency.

Flying.

Foresight on, plus immediate-action Celerity spell from the PHB II.

There are also item solutions.
Freedom of Movement isn't a wizard spell, but is availible on a 40k gp ring. That negates grappling.
Wearing a +1 mithral buckler of Heavy Fortification makes one immune to Stunning Fist (monks can't stun crit-immune creatures).

With those two items, the monk can't grapple the (BBEG?) mage and can't stun the mage. I don't see how else he can disable him in one hit.

[Yuki Akuma]

Craft a Contigent Dimensional Anchor to go off if anyone tries to Dimension Door near you.

Or make an epic spell that does the same.

[the_tick_rules]

hey i'm just tickled pink to hear of one instance in this forum of a non-spellcaster giving a spellcaster some trouble.

[Yuki Akuma]

hey i'm just tickled pink to hear of one instance in this forum of a non-spellcaster giving a spellcaster some trouble.

Wizards played badly aren't very survivable in a fight. And a wizard who can't handle a monk is a badly played one.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Dimensional Anchor (4th level, PHB)

EDIT: Ok, that was slow, even for me.

[Saph]

What level's the wizard? What level's the monk? What books do you allow/have access to? The wizard is an NPC and the monk is a PC, right? Do you want to actually make it impossible for the monk to kill the wizard or just make it more difficult?

- Saph

[Orzel]

Ha. A monk beating on someone. That's a laugh. A wizard too.

DD, Flight, D Anchor, etc.

The nicest non-mean answer is Slow spell. This at least gives them a chance to save.

[Misat]

I love this as well...wizards in trouble. Yes I understand that a PC wizard wouldn't be smoked by a PC monk most likely, but I love how this post shows that spellcasters don't turn DnD into caster vs caster.

That is if the DM is smart about it.

[hewhosaysfish]

Cunning use of Project Image could make Invisibility useful again.

[Tryranus_Magus]

Wow! Some mage haters out there. Don't hate the mage. Hate the magic.

Also... What are talking about? Monks rock! If you can't use a monk to whoop up on a spellcaster, you're not aware of the power they possess.

Like I said... max ranks Spot and Listen, Blind-Fight, Boots of Speed on top of his 70 feet of movement, Dimension Door, Sun School feat, just to start. He's a half-orc that payed to have Enlarge Person made Permanent. He can DD and make a stunning attack in the first round. If you try to move away, he steps in and grapples the mage.

I'm good at managing my NPC's and this monk is a mage killing machine.

Now back to the point... the Enlarged Half-Orc monk with DD and Sun School feat is level 17 per the recommendations of CotSQ and the mage NPC is Irae T'sarran restatted. So were talking casting 8th level spells from arcane and divine sources. I just want to see if anyone had any ideas of how to lengthen the battle and keep the monk from ending her day in round 1 without being brutally unfair by casting a million spells that makes the monk's player feel like all the hard work he's put into a character that he's built and played for well over a year has been rendered impotent.

Thanks for you input.

[Bears With Lasers]

Also... What are talking about? Monks rock! If you can't use a monk to whoop up on a spellcaster, you're not aware of the power they possess.

And if you *can*, you're not aware of the power *spellcasters* possess.

I'm good at managing my NPC's and this monk is a mage killing machine.

I just gave you like five simple ways, three of them completely without any cheese, that mages can be pretty much completely safe from him.

I just want to see if anyone had any ideas of how to lengthen the battle and keep the monk from ending her day in round 1 without being brutally unfair by casting a million spells that makes the monk's player feel like all the hard work he's put into a character that he's built and played for well over a year has been rendered impotent.

Thanks for you input.

All it takes is one reasonable, hours/level duration defensive spell, Anticipate Teleport. Alternatively, Heavy Fortification + Freedom of Movement, which will allow the monk to hit the caster but not disable them.

[Misat]

Wow! Some mage haters out there. Don't hate the mage. Hate the magic.

Also... What are talking about? Monks rock! If you can't use a monk to whoop up on a spellcaster, you're not aware of the power they possess.

Like I said... max ranks Spot and Listen, Blind-Fight, Boots of Speed on top of his 70 feet of movement, Dimension Door, Sun School feat, just to start. He's a half-orc that payed to have Enlarge Person made Permanent. He can DD and make a stunning attack in the first round. If you try to move away, he steps in and grapples the mage.

I'm good at managing my NPC's and this monk is a mage killing machine.

edit: *sigh* of course in the time it took to post the bears charged in and lazered my hopes.

Now back to the point... the Enlarged Half-Orc monk with DD and Sun School feat is level 17 per the recommendations of CotSQ and the mage NPC is Irae T'sarran restatted. So were talking casting 8th level spells from arcane and divine sources. I just want to see if anyone had any ideas of how to lengthen the battle and keep the monk from ending her day in round 1 without being brutally unfair by casting a million spells that makes the monk's player feel like all the hard work he's put into a character that he's built and played for well over a year has been rendered impotent.

Thanks for you input.

Don't get me wrong, monks do rule in my and my group's books. But my view always tends to be disrupted on these forums so it was nice to be agreed with. ONE QUESTION! How much does permenant Enlarge cost? Someone in my party wants to know and I can't figure it out. Also, how does dispell magic work on it? Don't want to hijak anything, but you seem to know your stuff a lot better than I do.

edit: of course the bears dashed me hopes of a civil discussion. Durn lazer weilding heathens.

[Indon]

I just want to see if anyone had any ideas of how to lengthen the battle and keep the monk from ending her day in round 1 without being brutally unfair by casting a million spells that makes the monk's player feel like all the hard work he's put into a character that he's built and played for well over a year has been rendered impotent.

There is a point where, at sufficiently high level PCvPC combat, it's really just a cheese-off. The better munchkin/minmaxer/whateveryouwannacallit will win.

You would not be cheesing this super-monk; you would be outcheesing him.

[Bears With Lasers]

There is a point where, at sufficiently high level PCvPC combat, it's really just a cheese-off. The better munchkin/minmaxer/whateveryouwannacallit will win.

You would not be cheesing this super-monk; you would be outcheesing him.

Um. The monk isn't cheesy in any way. Cheesy is using size increases and the Greater Might Wallop spell for YourMomd6 damage fists, or getting PAOed into a giant and then using a hat of disguise to look human. Using Sun School + Abundant Step is taking and using an okay feat in exactly the way it's meant to be used. Cripes, Abundant Step is even once/day.
Similarily, using the spell Anticipate Teleport to prevent enemies from teleporting next to you isn't cheesy in any way. Nor is a ring of Freedom of Movement and Heavy Fortification buckler, say.

[Indon]

Um. The monk isn't cheesy in any way. Cheesy is using size increases and the Greater Might Wallop spell for YourMomd6 damage fists, or getting PAOed into a giant and then using a hat of disguise to look human. Using Sun School + Abundant Step is taking and using an okay feat in exactly the way it's meant to be used. Cripes, Abundant Step is even once/day.
Similarily, using the spell Anticipate Teleport to prevent enemies from teleporting next to you isn't cheesy in any way. Nor is a ring of Freedom of Movement and Heavy Fortification buckler, say.

Rather than get into an argument with you about it, I'd rather just say we have different standards for what cuts the cheese threshold, and leave it at that.

[Ramza00]

First Bear, the most recent version of Anticipate Teleport if I recall is in the spell compedium. This version has a flat 24 hour duration (takes 10 mins to cast though so you do it when you wake up). There is also a 6th lvl "greater" version that delays the teleporter 3 rounds and the person who it is centered on knows exactly who the person is.

------------------------------------------------

To the original poster, I like Monks too, I just recongize that effectively there is nothing you can do to increase the monk's usefulness after say lvl 11 or so. Then you have to multiclass to get spells, use items, or use buffs your allies cast on you, to make yourself more useful. It sucks but that is how D&D works.

[Bears With Lasers]

Rather than get into an argument with you about it, I'd rather just say we have different standards for what cuts the cheese threshold, and leave it at that.

Man, is everything remotely effective "cheesy" by some standards?
I mean, "cheese" normally refers to using things in ways that they're not meant to be used to make them more powerful, or doing unlikely or ridiculously things just to be more powerful. I'm not sure how you're using it if it's not that way.

[goat]

Counter-monk him. They don't even have to be very good at damage dealing, just tool them up with every initiative boosting piece of kit/feat/spell you can come up with, and then pray they get highest and can ready an action to defend the wizard.

[Indon]

Man, is everything remotely effective "cheesy" by some standards?
I mean, "cheese" normally refers to using things in ways that they're not meant to be used to make them more powerful, or doing unlikely or ridiculously things just to be more powerful. I'm not sure how you're using it if it's not that way.

That's what we have different standards for.

[Bears With Lasers]

It's unlikely or ridiculous to take a reasonably-powered feat and use it for the purpose it was intended?

Or to cast defensive spells/use items to protect against something you know to be a weakness of yours?

How is the monk using Sun School any more unlikely or ridiculous than the fighter using Improved Trip, or the mage using a Ring of Freedom of Movement any more ridiculous or unlikely than the fighter using a Cloak of Protection or Amulet of Natural Armor?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

See, I never play wizards because their spells give me a headache. I'm not good at battlefield control. This is fact. I'm also not good at predicting enemy encounters and setting up my daily spells appropriately.

So an intelligent monk PC could probably destroy me. He shouldn't, but he will. This is also why DM's love me when I play arcane casters. I'm so bad at it that I don't break anything.

[Indon]

It's unlikely or ridiculous to take a reasonably-powered feat and use it for the purpose it was intended?

And again you cut to the heart of the distinction.

I don't view likelyhood in terms of power levels and metagame intent, I view it in terms of character knowledge and opportunity.

[Yuki Akuma]

And again you cut to the heart of the distinction.

I don't view likelyhood in terms of power levels and metagame intent, I view it in terms of character knowledge and opportunity.

...Wait, what? So... you consider a monk, knowing that he can't attack right after using Abudant Step, may decide to learn a special technique that allows him to Abudant Step and attack almost simultaneously metagame knowledge?

And... you believe a wizard, who is more intelligent than any living human in the real world has ever or will ever likely be, would not know of his own weaknesses and would not know how besty to counteract them with a spell he has in his spellbook, and has most likely studied in great detail?

Edit: Damn, I'm terrible at grammar today.

[Cyborg Pirate]

And again you cut to the heart of the distinction.

I don't view likelyhood in terms of power levels and metagame intent, I view it in terms of character knowledge and opportunity.

...ok... I'm a little at loss with this one. How is a character who seeks in character to protect himself from his own flaws cheesy?

[Rigeld2]

And again you cut to the heart of the distinction.

I don't view likelyhood in terms of power levels and metagame intent, I view it in terms of character knowledge and opportunity.

Right. The character should know (from legends, stories etc. of other great wizards) that wizards are weak once someone gets close to them. The character should also know that monks (among many other classes) can teleport. A spell like Anticipate Teleport would be extremely useful in lessening the weakness to the character, making him less vulnerable to death by being teleported next to.

100% in character knowledge.

[Ramza00]

And again you cut to the heart of the distinction.

I don't view likelyhood in terms of power levels and metagame intent, I view it in terms of character knowledge and opportunity.

While Anticipate Teleportation is a Complete Arcane/Spell Compedium spell and thus you can make the arguement that a wizard isn't likely to know it. Dimensional Anchor is in the PHB and thus is very likely to be a commonly known spell in any game world, unless you purposefully craft a game world where teleportation doesn't occur. Same thing with Contingency.

[Ramza00]

Damn I was ninja'd by 3 people :(

[Bears With Lasers]

And again you cut to the heart of the distinction.

I don't view likelyhood in terms of power levels and metagame intent, I view it in terms of character knowledge and opportunity.

How is a monk developing a technique to strike after using the step-through-space ability monks develop different from a fighter perfecting a technique to trip opponents, or break their weapons?

How is it unlikely for a highly intelligent wizard to hunt down a spell that will keep him safer?


Also, how on earth do you determine what spells a character would and wouldn't have heard of? How is it any less reasonable to have a character who heard of Anticipate Teleportation at Wizard School, or who knows about Rings of Freedom, than one who heard of Haste or knows about Rods of Extend Spell?

Characters with Anticipate Teleport and a Ring of Freedom are no more unlikely than characters without. "What my character has and hasn't heard of" is a fairly arbitrary decision, and it is always a "metagame" decision.

Is it unreasonable to wear fullplate if you have 12 dex, too?

[Cyborg Pirate]

woooh, that's some massive ninja'ing in the thread