Sunder, Cleave & Charge

[AKA_Bait]

I was looking a Sorc 1/ Paladin 5 build that took advantage of the PhB 2 charging smite variant. I was thinking of having the characters melee focus be true striking themself, doing a charging smite, and translating much of the true strike into additional damage with the smite by using power attack. Since the build is for a traditional paladin (LG and all that) it's preferable if he can get an opponent to surrender rather than kill them (rp decision here, I don't want to debate it) here is my question: Can you use sunder at the end of a charge? If you can, can you use cleave to cleave into the person who's weapon, armor, etc it was after sundering?

[PaleAngel]

I don't have the charging rules in front of me, so unfortunately I can't answer the first part of your question. However, for the second part, I would say "no." In order to exercise Cleave, you must incapacitate your opponent before striking another adjacent foe. A weapon (assuming it is not an animated, intelligent, what-have-you, epic weapon of doom) is not a foe, merely the tool of your enemy; thus it is not a valid target to either begin a cleave attempt, nor to end one. (I.e. you strike a person first, then attempt to sunder an adjacent foe's weapon)

[Xilehxt]

Yes you can sunder after charging. No you can't cleave into the person after successfully sundering a weapon, armor, or shield. However...

Spoiler

Show

A feat from CW will allow this. Combat Brute has a manuever in which after sundering, you can cleave into the person

-edit-
Oopps, I said cleave instead of sunder...of course you can cleave after charging, heck you can cleave with AoOs...

[AKA_Bait]

Yes you can cleave after charging. No you can't cleave into the person after successfully sundering a weapon, armor, or shield. However...

Spoiler

Show

A feat from CW will allow this. Combat Brute has a manuever in which after sundering, you can cleave into the person

Did you mean I can sunder after charging?

[AKA_Bait]

Follow up question:

SRD Cleave reads: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

Does this mean that if I charge, power attack, smite evil and true strike that on the cleave I remain at the same bonus as the first attack (i.e. much higher than the bonus w/ out the charge etc.)?

[Dreyden]

No. Power attack still applies, but the smite and True Strike would not, as they both specifically affect one attack. The meaning of that phrase from the Cleave feat is that you make the attack at the same Base Attack Bonus as the attack that dropped a foe. If you have +6/+1 BAB and drop a foe with the +6 attack, your Cleave attack is at the +6 BAB. Likewise, if you drop a foe with the +1 attack, your Cleave attack is at the +1 BAB.

[Xilehxt]

Unfortunately, the true strike description says that the bonus goes only for one attack. Same with smite evil.

This is a direct contradiction in the rules, and therefore is up to the DM to decide whether the true strike and smite bonus goes in or not. All the other bonuses, charge, power attack are still there.

If RAW, then yes, you still would get those bonuses, and the recent Tome of Battle supports this by saying that maneuvers used with cleave still retain their effects. But ultimately, DM has to decide.

-edit-
Ninja'd, I see.

[AKA_Bait]

That's what I figured. Otherwise True Strike would let you cleave a bloody swath through the countryside.

[Josh Inno]

Keep in mind that smite is smite EVIL.

Unless you're smiting an evil weapon, shield, or other sentient item of some kind, you are not likely to actually get smite damage off on the sword, shield, or what have you.

Edit: Wait wait! My mistake. If you smite you do indeed deal the extra damage... unless you're striking a non-evil creature.

So would that mean that you could use smite to affect a holy avenger? o.O Wow.