What it takes to ruin a Player.

[killer_monk]

I'd like to start by saying this will be a rant. But I am looking for advice, because some of the things I'm going to discuss have made me question myself as both a GM, and a Player.

To start, this is going to be mostly about another player, and self professed DM, whose methods have made me wonder and worry about my own practices.

Let's start from the beginning. I played my first session of AD&D my freshman year of high school, in the year 2008. The player whom i will be discussing was the DM. And I had a friend who wahted to try at the same time. We rolled up "0 level characters".

Yes, that's right. We started with 3hp and no hit dice. Now, I didn't know this would be a problem, as I had never played before and didn't know any of the rules.

I started as a half elf. I think 14 was my best stat. My friend started as a human, his best stat was around 16.

So we're given a few inventory items. Scrolls of web, shield and i think maybe one other. And we're given 3 health potions each. No armor, no weapons, no arrows, no class. I still didn't know this would be a problem.

He starts us off in the middle of the woods. He tells us we're being hunted by 30 orcs. So we start running, and then we get to a shear cliff, 300ft to the ocean below. This cliff is triangular and we HAVE to climb down. So as soon as we start climbing down the orcs arrive. They immediately see us as start climbing down after. And some shoot bows at us. I have used all my potions by the time I reach the bottom.

When we get there several orcs have fallen off, so i go to get a bow. As soon as i reach for the bow he says the orcs get an auto hit, since theyre in an advantageous position 300ft above us. So there goes my hp.

After running for "3 days" we meet up with some elves. Im a half elf so i try to smooth it over. After being forced to give them all the equipment we managed to scrounge off the orcs we each get a magic weapon. Mine gives me the benefits of being a full elf, as well as being "magic". My friend's is a ring of regeneration AND a vampiric-like blade.

So then we get jumped by two highwaymen and my friend almost immediately dies. After barely surviving myself, he gets ressurected by his ring. Such ends my first game of D&D.

After the session he points out how we could've used the scrolls to avoid the arrows and cast Web, which we shouldve then pulled on and pulled all the orcs off the cliff side. I was a tad upset at this.

I'll post more "episodes" if anyone wants. But be warned, they actually get WORSE from this point on, and it eventually blooms into a struggle between myself and the ultimate Gary Stu.

Id like to ask if anyone else here on the forums has ever dealt with a DM/Player that was so bad/cruel/sue that is made you change the way you DMed, the way you played and even the way you handle your own characters. To this day I'm still scared that my NPCs/DMPCs are becoming a Sue or even sucking the fun out of games. It usually means i reture a lot of my characters really early, because i can't handle doing to anyone else what was done to me. Even though I always ask my players if they're having fun, I'm still worried I'm doing stuff wrong.

Another question is about if I'm just being a whiner. I don't want to needlessly complain, and I feel that I may just be being selfish or something.

[Fiery Diamond]

So... this happened 6 years ago before you ever started DMing and was your introduction to gaming, and you just now are having it make you question your DMing traits?

Wut?

[killer_monk]

So... this happened 6 years ago before you ever started DMing and was your introduction to gaming, and you just now are having it make you question your DMing traits?

Wut?

No, I've been questioning my traits for years. It's just that It's finally really starting to wear on me now that I started GMing my Pathfinder group again.

[Amphetryon]

<snip>
Let's start from the beginning. I played my first session of AD&D my freshman year of high school, in the year 2008.
<snip>
Another question is about if I'm just being a whiner. I don't want to needlessly complain, and I feel that I may just be being selfish or something.

Incident took place in 2008, and cost you no real-world resources beyond time spent, or injury. I'm sorry to say the answer to your second question appears to be 'yes,' from where I sit.

[Arbane]

I'll post more "episodes" if anyone wants. But be warned, they actually get WORSE from this point on, and it eventually blooms into a struggle between myself and the ultimate Gary Stu.

Well, I'd like to hear it.

And I'm sorry, but no matter how bad your DM's UberNPCs, he cannot be 'the ultimate Gary Stu'. That position has already been filled.

Id like to ask if anyone else here on the forums has ever dealt with a DM/Player that was so bad/cruel/sue that is made you change the way you DMed, the way you played and even the way you handle your own characters.

Not personally, I'm happy to say, but I've heard plenty of horror stories of 'Burn Victim' players so traumatized by bad GMs that they avoid plot-hooks like the plague, never make characters that aren't orphans, or kill all named NPCs on sight. And then there's the stuff that happens to female players' characters... *shudder*.

Also, Web does not work that way.

[Scorpina]

At the heart of it, that story reads like the DM had a specific 'solution' in mind which - to him - was simple or even obvious, and made that the only solution he'd accept to the predicament he threw at you.

Which isn't good DMing, because being a good DM is about 70% reacting to your players and dealing with how they respond to your death traps or what have you.

But that's just my two bits.

[Red Fel]

Id like to ask if anyone else here on the forums has ever dealt with a DM/Player that was so bad/cruel/sue that is made you change the way you DMed, the way you played and even the way you handle your own characters. To this day I'm still scared that my NPCs/DMPCs are becoming a Sue or even sucking the fun out of games. It usually means i reture a lot of my characters really early, because i can't handle doing to anyone else what was done to me. Even though I always ask my players if they're having fun, I'm still worried I'm doing stuff wrong.

It sounds like what happened here was a case of linear DMing, not a case of Gary Stu.

For clarification, let me define the terms as I'm using them. Gary Stu, in my understanding, is a character (in this context, generally a DMPC) who is always right, who always wins, who is the natural leader, who always has the solutions, and for whom the other PCs exist alternately as either cheerleaders or background noise. He is the poorly-executed DMPC taken to obscene extremes.

Linear DMing, in my experience, is a form of severe railroading where a DM proposes a scenario, and if you do things "right," you do well; if you do them in any other way, you are punished.

What you described above was less a case of Gary Stu, in that I didn't hear much about DMPCs, and more a case of linear DMing, in that the DM told you after the fact what you were "supposed" to do, and how it would have turned out better.

Let me put your mind at ease about one thing - the fact that you have remained conscious of your DMing style is a good sign. It means you are taking active steps to prevent yourself from being the kind of DM you loathe.

That said, I'd advise you not to over-analyze. If your players say they're having fun, stop. You're in the golden zone. Just keep doing what you're doing. If you want to improve, you can always experiment with new things, but if the players say they're enjoying, you need to get outside of your head and accept it as a given that you're doing it right.

Your comments suggest that you're an active self-analyzer. Let me put your mind at ease again - you're not whining, and you're not being selfish by asking these questions. Stepping back and asking how you can improve is the hallmark of a good DM. Relax. What you are doing, however, is second-guessing yourself. Some navel-gazing is good; too much is hazardous. Once you have established that you're on the right track, it's best not to over-think it.

Sometimes we need to hear that we're doing something right. If you're asking your players for input, and they're having fun; if you're learning from past mistakes, be they yours or others'; if you're constantly self-evaluating, and seeking to improve; then chances are you're doing something right. So now you've heard it. Relax.

[Friv]

a) That doesn't sound like a very good game.
b) That doesn't sound like a very unusual game being run by a 14-year old.

[killer_monk]

To answer a few questions.

I do not want to whine. It helps nobody, so I've please forgive me if this it what it sounds like.

I remember when that Stu thread was written. And I still think my DM's Stu was worse. I'll elaborate later and let you guys judge.

Incidentally, all my characters are orphans, no plot hooks, although I still don't kill named NPC's. I didn't realize these "signs" were even a thing?

To point something out, this example I gave was not in fact one of a Stu. This was just my first game, which is where I wanted to start my list of bad stories. I probably shouldve said that though.

I do self analyze. I've always been my own worst critic, and I can't help that. I just have to be 100% certain I'm not screwing stuff up. Because I never want to burn a player the way I was introduced to tabletop gaming.

Thanks Red Fel, it's always good to know you're not screwing stuff up.

Also, the DM would've been about 46 years old when this game took place. Don't ask why we had a 46 year old DM, that's an entirely different can of worms.

I'll write the next episode in the series when I get a chance. Continue to ask questions and I'll get back as soon as possible.

[John Longarrow]

9 quick things...

On your previous DM
1) The DM failed to make sure you knew the rules to the game before starting the game.
2) The DM failed to understand the rules to the game.
3) The DM, as Red Fel pointed out, had "One way" this was to go and did a poor job of letting you in on the game.
4) The DM failed to give you a reasonable set of encounters.
On your DMing
5) You are looking to be a better DM, showing you are better than your previous DM.
6) Asking your players IS the best way to see if they like your game.
7) Asking your players is the best way I know to change up your game to make it more fun for the players.
On your playing
8) The more your characters back story meshes with the world, the easier it is for the DM. You should have noticed this from your own table.
9) The more connected your character is to the party, the easier it is to mesh with the party. See 8 above.

Hope this helps!

[spikeof2010]

Do continue, I'm curious on your Sue/Stu experiences, considering I'm playing my first campaign myself.

[killer_monk]

The second story takes place in 4e. I went and bought books after reading a bit and realizing the many rule breaking mistakes that took place in my first adventure. I didnt know about 4e being terrible though, so again, another mistake on my part.

It starts with me rolling a Dragonborn Fighter/Kensai. I still, to this day, do not entirely understand 4e, so we winged it. Of course, this is also the First Appearance of the Stu, whose name is JAZZ. No, I'm not joking, its an acronym for some ignorantly long name too.

I'll give a little backstory on JAZZ before we start. He was apparently our DM's favorite PC from AD&D. So he decided that everyone should be a fan of JAZZ, the Godkiller, the Master of Space and Time, the 75th level Archmage, the 17th Level Grand Master of Flowers Monk, the 21st Level Assassin. The only truly unkillable being in the universe, who smites nuaghty gods when they disobey him. He was, might i add, Chaotic Nuetral. Yes. I know you have to be lawful to be a monk. Yes, i know you have to be evil to be an assassin in 1st edition.

Oh, did i forget to mention his Glassteel, 9th level spell casting intelligent dancing vorpal katana? Or the fact that he was a Drow? Or that he wore the clothes of a ninja?

Aside from the fact that his time bending abilities were "stolen from Kronos" and allowed him to "flip through time like the strips on movie film", and that he had "slain every evil god ever", leaving only him and a few good gods. You think you've seen Stuing? You've seen amateurs. He did whatever he wanted, and was subsequently praised by everyone in the UNIVERSE. Even though nobody knew his original name. For Truenaming reasons...

Oh, and he would grant any wish at any point in the storyline. Want a gold piece? Its in between the teeth of the Ancient Red Wyrm in front of you. Want 1,000,000 gold pieces? They fall, stacked perfectly in a line, from space and bore a hole through your entire body.

And the two examples i just gave? They actually happened, resulting in the rolling of two new characters in the first three minutes.

Anyways, to the story:

We find ourselves in the underdark. We are fifth level or so, what are and have basic equipment. (I showed the DM that most parties start with basic equipment.)

Suddenly, a mysterious but extremely charming man appears in front of us. He then asks us if we want any wishes. After rerolling two characters from wish-death, we proceed reluctantly into normal conversation. He asks us if we want to "fight or die". I say I want to walk away. He teleports in front of me. I walk by him. He immediately Magic Jars me, no saving throw, and then teleports me and my friend into an army of 10,000 orcs. We see castle nearby and, since he apparently used Time Stop, we start running. We reach the gates as the time stop ends.

Now i had convinced the DM that i had very limited spell casting ability and enchanting ability through 4e's rules. Yes, i know, it was wrong of me. But at the same time i can't only give you what he did wrong in these stories. I had taken arcana as a skill and some feat to do with ritual casting or some other. So it wasn't that i deceived him, but that i actually believed this to be the case.

Anyways, so we get through the other side of the castle wall by tricks from my friend who was a warlock. So I start chipping away at one of the boulders in a trebuchet, then cast levitate on said boulder and use it like a giant flying butter knife against the orc army.

Of course, the Stu can't fathom anyone doing something cooler than him, so he starts using some form of Bigby's hands to smash the army like "insects". He causes flaming avalanches and generally shows off, outdoing us at every step. I then fight a chieftain who sunders my armor and, right before i strike the killing blow, JAZZ appears and says "orc to pork", Polymorphing the orc into a pig.

He then immediately teleports us into the underdark, gives my companion several magic items and asks why i didnt take the chieftain's vorpal weapon. That was the end of that. Such started my DM career, fueled by the anger for people who needlessly screw players.

But this wouldn't be the last time I'd have to deal with JAZZ...


Any questions or comments?

[Jarawara]

These kinds of stories come up all the time. I think you are reacting... well, normally considering the circumstances. In fact, I think it's healthy.

I have my own story, similar to yours. My first DM (Mike) routinely put forth scenarios where he saw a way that we the players could win, and if you thought of *that specific thing*, it would work, but if you tried anything else, it would fail horribly. The game was at least playable because pulling out your sword and your dice would still usually work. But it led to uninspired play because nobody would ever try anything unique.

Example: Battle of the Bridge

I've told this story before, so I'm going to give a shortened version of it here, but basically the party comes across a bridge spanning a great ravine. Party has to get across (we were being pursued by an army, plot was that direction, Mike wanted us to fight, etc). There are 90 orcs in three groups, plus 10 Ogres, and a Wyvren. 3 of the orcs are the riders, 30 of the orcs are being a short wall with arrowslits, 30 man the bridge itself and the rest are scattered around on this side ready to hit our flanks.

We walk forward into a slaughter, losing 90% of our party in the process. That's the extremely short version of the story, as there were lots of miscues, rules interpretations, dramatic moments, and a well placed spell that took our the rider but not the wyvren which then landed on the bridge and stung everything that moved, but the key point is that we lost nearly everybody.

After the battle, Mike gave us a few suggestions of what we could have done: Cast invisibility on the thief, have him go across the bridge and steal the keys to the wyvren (chained to a large tree at the start of the battle). Same thief could then go around cutting bowstrings, so that the archers would be out of business. We also could have charged them and overran them, as we were on horseback.

Now understand -- all of these suggestions would have worked, and worked beautifully. Why? Because the DM suggested them. Because the DM thought of it first, and was waiting for us to think of it. But if he hadn't thought of it himself, here's what would have happened...

Invisible thief would have gone across the river, pickpocketed an orc for the key (let's be generous and assume he was successful). Once the battle began, 2nd or 3rd orc rider would have produced their key and unlocked the wyvren. How would we have known to look for *3* orc riders out of 90? Even if we did, the "Wyvren handler" would have done the same. Effect: None.

Same thief, if he hasn't been caught and killed already, would have then gone and slit some bowstrings. Mike would have ruled that cutting bowstrings is "an attack of sorts", and invisibility would have been cancelled. Or he simply would have assumed that at least one of the orcs was watching, seen the bowstring being picked up and cut, and quickly surmised there is someone invisible there. Thief would have caught and killed, and then the orcs would have pulled out replacement bowstrings and been ready to nail us to death by the next round. Effect: None, except having lost our thief.

And we know what would happen if we tried casting Hold Person on the orc riders. 3 dead orc riders as they plummet to the ground, but then half a dozen dead party members as the wyvren decides to continue the battle without the rider's direction.

And as for overrunning them on horseback? There was a gate on the bridge which we couldn't cut down (we tried), so I bet that gate would have stopped our charge cold. Even if we could, Mike had a rule that whenever you entered a hexspace with a dead body, there was a chance to slip on the blood. At one point during the battle, I had to retreat from a position by riding over part of the battlefield already strewn with bodies. I made it one space - that's 5 feet - and the horse crashed to the ground and pinned me. Ogres were atop me and strung me out, orc lopped off my head in a coup-de-gras. I was 4th level with 39 hit points, having only taken 4 pts so far in the battle (and I was one of the "big guns" of the party), and voila, I was dead because a horse can't step over a corpse.

And he expected us to believe that we could have charged their position and overrun them? Just think of the carnage we would have endured, while their 2nd rank rushed in to finish us off?

*~*~*

Ah yeesh, and that was the short version. So back to my point:

By experiencing the horrors he inflicted upon us, I learned not to do that to my players. I would ask myself if I am copying what he had done, and correct my behavoir if necessary. I instituted certain policies. For example, if a player attempts something in my game, it most likely will work. That first DM taught us not to try anything. After all, if the effect is nullified and characters die for the attempt, why try anything? Just pull out swords and dice and go to work.

But I want my players to think, not just roll dice, so I reward them for thinking. Even in situations where the plan would fail (due to information the players lack), I'll let the plan work just to encourage the players to constantly try new things.

Another example - if we tried to sneak across a darkened hallway, Mike would have a guard peering down the hall at all times, we'd be seen, battle ensues shortly thereafter. But if you try to sneak across a darkened hallway in my game, even if I know there are guards on patrol, I will assume the guard didn't see you (*darkened* hallway), or that he was looking away for a moment, was distracted, etc. Why? Because I **WANT** you to try something I didn't expect. (Or even if I expected you to sneak, I will at least allow you to do it!)

I also learned to be well prepared... but to be prepared to set that preparation to the side. I once had prepped up a big fight for my players, over 40 gnolls who were inspecting an old ruin (the adventure site!). This was to provide an exciting fight for the 20-man party before the start of the actual exploration adventure began.

Party sends a scout forward to examine their adversaries, considers their options, and then walks up and says hello. They have a proposal, they say - "Let's you and us combine our efforts and divie up the loot".

Then I watched in facinated horror as a 60-man combo of party and gnolls proceed to tear up every challenge I had prepped for them in the lower levels. It was epic!!!! One PC (Nic) then turned the old ruin into a school for combat training, and his mercenary squad is famous up and down the coast. "Nic's Gnolls", swords for hire!

*~*~*

For years afterwards, I would say that my first DM taught me everything I ever needed to know about DMing. Whenever something would come up where I didn't know how to handle it, I would just think back to that first DM, and ask myself "How would Mike handle it?"

And then I would do the exact opposite.

35 years later, that approach still works for me.

So I suggest you do the same. It's normal to question yourself, but learn to take your DM's failings as a lesson on what not to do. He's done you a service, really, showing you why his actions were really bad. If he had endured a DM similar to him, he might not have been that way himself.

Of course you will make your mistakes, but at least this way you'll be making your own mistakes, new and original, and not just repeating the past. :)

[Jarawara]

Any questions or comments?

Eeaaaahhhhhhhh...

Ok, I stand corrected. These kinds of stories *DO NOT* come up that often!

[Jarawara]

But my opinion still stands. You're doing fine. A healthy dose of self-doubt is a good thing, and by having experienced the worst, you ensure that your own players won't have to face your previous horrors.

[Arbane]

I remember when that Stu thread was written. And I still think my DM's Stu was worse. I'll elaborate later and let you guys judge.

Oh, yeah, like THAT'S likel....

I'll give a little backstory on JAZZ before we start. He was apparently our DM's favorite PC from AD&D. So he decided that everyone should be a fan of JAZZ, the Godkiller, the Master of Space and Time, the 75th level Archmage, the 17th Level Grand Master of Flowers Monk, the 21st Level Assassin. The only truly unkillable being in the universe, who smites nuaghty gods when they disobey him. He was, might i add, Chaotic Nuetral. Yes. I know you have to be lawful to be a monk. Yes, i know you have to be evil to be an assassin in 1st edition.

Oh, did i forget to mention his Glassteel, 9th level spell casting intelligent dancing vorpal katana? Or the fact that he was a Drow? Or that he wore the clothes of a ninja?

O_O

...I have to admit, you're making a strong case.

[Gavran]

I didnt know about 4e being terrible though

And this is where you lost me.

What you've described isn't even the tiniest bit 4E (Seriously, you reference like six things that don't exist in 4E maybe two that do). I have no reason to believe what you played even vaguely resembled 4E, and I have no desire to continue reading the stories of someone who is going to dismiss something you completely failed to understand so readily.

Not that I'd bother telling you this normally, you're free to prefer whatever system you want, but you did ask for comments so... there it is.

[veti]

So, you were being DM'd by - your dad?

Sounds like your DM learned way too much of his playstyle from 'Legend of Zelda'. Or, worse, 'Prince of Persia'.

I'd like to see more stories, but your narrative style could use improvement. Right now, it does come across as more than a little whiney.

To your question: yes, I've played in games where there's One Right Way to solve a problem, and anyone who tried anything different was punished. It wasn't fun, and my solution was to stop playing with that DM. Exception: if the One Right Way is blindingly obvious. (This is how 'Zelda' gets away with it - the ORW there is to "use the latest piece of cool gear you picked up, on whatever responds when you point at it". And even then, it only works because the only "punishment" for getting it wrong is you have to try again.)

[killer_monk]

At the person about 4e not being understood: no, I didn't completely grasp the system. I found Pathfinder much easier for me. But if you're looking at the stats on JAZZ, then you'll be happy to know that the DM blatantly stated that JAZZ was, and is, immune to changes in the system.

No, again, I'm unfortunately not joking. JAZZ is actually immune to changes in the system. Except where he can pull from 3.X's spells list when desired.

Apologies for sounding whiney. Last thing I had intended. I have several more stories concerning JAZZ, and even one where the DM became a PC and tried to derail a campaign, to which I rules-smote him thoroughly.

The can of worms on who the DM is will not be opened, I am requesting such. I want a Nuetral view of all the events and actions of the stories, because i could very well be just as guilty. That is why I have not left any details out, not even about the ritual casting issue which I continued to use, more or less, for the entire character's play time.

On another note, I am glad to take any tips for GMing any of you have, and am appreciative of the tips I have already gotten. Thank you all for your input, whether negative or positive, every comment has potential to help.

And I will continue with the stories if requested to do so. I'll also do my best not to sound whiney.

[spikeof2010]

I'm down to hear more.

[nedz]

These stories are awful, but strangely they draw you in. It's a bit like watching a train crash.

[Thrudd]

There are three issues at hand that I see. One is a game style choice issue, where there is no real right and wrong. There is nothing blatantly wrong with starting as level 0 nobodies who are very vulnerable. Not everyone may have fun playing that way, but other people might, it's just a preference.

The second issue is one of knowing the rules of a specific game. Some people use house rules in their games and/or ignore certain rules, a lot of people actually. There is nothing wrong about this, either, as long as everyone playing knows what the rules are. A part of the problem in your first game appears to be that you were not informed of the rules of the game you were playing, or at least you were not clear about them. In such a situation, it is good to ask questions of the DM regarding what sort of options you have within the rules. A good DM will help new players understand the rules and the options available to them. In your supposed 4e game, it sounds like none of you really knew the rules of the game, not even the DM.
Playing with the rules as a very loose guideline on a mostly free-form roleplaying session is not entirely uncommon, either. You just need to be informed that that is how the game will be. Again, not everyone enjoys playing this way, but it isn't wrong. The DM needs to make it clear this is what is going on.

The last issue is one of a bad DM. It sounds like maybe your DM didn't do any of the things mentioned earlier. Did not make the rules of the game clear to you, was not helpful when you were learning how to play, and maybe didn't really know the rules very well himself. Playing fast and loose with the rules isn't wrong, it's a style choice, but the players need to know that's how it's going to be so they can roll with it and free-form rather than being concerned about the rules. Having highly lethal games is also a style choice that isn't wrong, but again not everyone finds it fun, and you should be warned about it when you start.

The insane god-being DM character constantly interfering in the game is another mark of a bad DM and a game that is not fun for the players.

I have played in a game like this, too. With, probably not coincidentally a CN god-level DMPC that was a former character of the DM's from a previous edition that could pretty much do anything and was always randomly showing up. This DM was also one who expected us to perform very specific actions and anything else we tried automatically failed, and then used his DMPC god to punish us randomly because we weren't going about things the right way.

Such as: At first level, we were given a mission by the king to find out if the DMPC had returned to our world, since there were rumors of strange goings on. So of course we went to the area the reports had come from and started asking around, if anyone had seen the DMPC (can't remember what he was called now). Since we spoke his name aloud, people all shunned us and wouldn't talk to us or help us, and then he showed up and teleported us somewhere, if I remember right. Then the DM laughed at us, because we were so foolish as to actually utter the DMPC's name, as though we were meant to know that this was a taboo thing that would immediately summon him from whatever plane he was on. We had no knowledge of his game-world before the start, nor the history of this PC-become-god of infinite level and unlimited powers that we, as first level characters, were meant to find and somehow drive away from the kingdom. This was the game where I, as a bard with 19 charisma, was unable to favorably influence a single person to help us with anything, not because I rolled poorly (I never got to roll for anything), but the DM didn't want me to get the information I was looking for or to bypass any challenges that way.

[veti]

The second story takes place in 4e.

Your writing voice improves considerably in this story. Bravo!

I'd like a little more out-of-game context. What did the DM say about all this, while and after it was happening?

[killer_monk]

Your writing voice improves considerably in this story. Bravo!

I'd like a little more out-of-game context. What did the DM say about all this, while and after it was happening?

Thanks. I always try to apply criticism to the best of my abilities. And it's nice to know you're improving.

He was very detailed when saying something about JAZZ, but frankly couldn't of cared less about our characters. My Dragonborn had a neat story line I really wanted to incorporate, and my friend's Tiefling Warlock had a lot of role play room. Unfortunately we never got the spotlight, and my friend never played 4e again. (He did play one more time before giving it up completely, but because both times he played JAZZ was involved I'm not actually certain if he didn't enjoy tabletop gaming, or if he just hated JAZZ as much as me.)

He also blatantly stated JAZZ was immune to changes in the system, errata and since he never wrote down JAZZ's stats, they were more or less whatever he wanted them to be.

He would also go out of his way to cram JAZZ down every player's throat. And he hated it when someone would point out that there's no way he could've actually of earned all his PC's Uber powers and abilities, since half of them were 1st edition, and the other half were 3.x.

The DM never explained the rules. He wanted us to "learn through practice". The only thing we learned was to read the rules whenever he quotes stuff.

We were winging it, but the rules for 4e are more or less just a video game. You have your dailies, encounters and at wills. You have healing surges and AC. Hp is pretty static among the various players. Honestly it was just a tad boring. Didn't stop the DM from ignoring all the above though.

Yeah, I know it's like a train crash. It's why the sessions with JAZZ had a tendency to draw a crowd. And because they drew a crowd, it made the DM think he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Which just fueled the Stu.

[The Glyphstone]

Marty is still the worse Stu - as bad as JAZZ sounds, I doubt it ever got to the point where your DM believed JAZZ was actually his literal self projected into the game world - but really, that's like arguing who has the worst sucking chest wound.

Share more JAZZ stories though, if you have any good ones. Train wrecks are always more fun to watch from a distance.

[Airk]

See, the reason this clown was playing with kids/new roleplayers is because no one with any prior experience in what RPGs are supposed to be like would tolerate this nonsense for more than a single session. I probably wouldn't last more than 15 minutes. That second story made me throw up a little.

So to answer questions from the first post:

No, you're not whining, though it does sound like you have some scars. With luck, those can turn into "Let me tell you my favorite GM horror story!" scars which are entertaining for all involved.
It doesn't sound like you're in any danger of, er. Stu-ing a game, but it's always a good idea to doublecheck that if the PCs are involving an NPC on their side, that it's because they WANT to, not because they feel they HAVE to. And, well, your NPCs should be bound by the system they are in. :P

It's also probably not a bad idea to read some of the excellent GMing advice available on the internet. Because, you know, there's good advice out there, and even if you don't NEED it, it sure doesn't hurt. This section from the Dungeon World SRD has a lot of good general advice, particularly in "Agenda" and "principles". You really can't go too far wrong following that logic in ANY game. (I'm actually a particular fan of the part where he tells you what your job ISN'T.)

[CombatOwl]

At the heart of it, that story reads like the DM had a specific 'solution' in mind which - to him - was simple or even obvious, and made that the only solution he'd accept to the predicament he threw at you.

Which isn't good DMing, because being a good DM is about 70% reacting to your players and dealing with how they respond to your death traps or what have you.

But that's just my two bits.

Who needs death traps? A bit of rope and players will hang themselves for you. "Hey, look, a treasure map!"

[LokiRagnarok]

Suddenly, a mysterious but extremely charming man appears in front of us. He then asks us if we want any wishes. After rerolling two characters from wish-death, we proceed reluctantly into normal conversation. He asks us if we want to "fight or die". I say I want to walk away. He teleports in front of me. I walk by him. He immediately Magic Jars me, no saving throw, and then teleports me and my friend into an army of 10,000 orcs.

Have you ever told that exact story before? I seem to remember the "teleporting in front of you to make you say a wish" thing.

[TriForce]

sooo, 2 questions that are in desperate need of awnsering:

1: did anyone TELL the DM that his JAZZ is ruining any chance of the game being fun?
2: why do you have multiple stories about the guy when most people would have walked away from the table halfway in the first encounter?

[DM Nate]

2: why do you have multiple stories about the guy when most people would have walked away from the table halfway in the first encounter?

*cue with revelation that poster is actually DM*

WHAT A TWIST!