Do PC classes make armies irrelevant?

[Scalenex]

Seems a timely time to put a discussion I had with a friend into a thread.

Regardless of what you think of which class would be most useful, one PC class of even 5th level can take out a lot of ordinary soldiers, to say nothing of what a 10th or higher level can do.

A fighter (or paladin or cleric) with magic armor can pretty much wade into a mass of normal troops and waste two or three a round (barring fancy feat combinations and buff spells which could raise this higher) and only get hit on a natural 20. It would not take too much imagination to have a druid (shapechanged of course), barbarian, ranger, or monk being similarily nigh untouchable killing machines.

A rogue should have very high stealth skills and could sneak through the front lines and assassinate officers with relative ease, especially with an arcane buff spell like invisibility.

Of course spell casters, their ability to lay waste to legions of enemies has been expounded on a lot lately.

The sticky wicket is Bards, though due to their ability to straddle the fence between warriors, spell casters, and skill monkeys, they'd still be worth many fighting men. And one can not overestimate Bard song with large numbers of people. Though a Bard's true power is diplomacy and armies are for when diplomacy fails .

So how does one reconcile PC classes and armies for without armies, the medieval society (or any historical period used) that D&D depends on will likely collapse. You don't even really need soldiers to occupy territory, since a small number of PC class people would do a good job keeping order (particularly Rogues and Monks) though admittedly, they are less apt to tie themselves down to occupational forces than to fight large CR forces.

Here's what I figure, the PC classes look for their opposites in the opposite army and try to take them out. This works assuming the two sides are relatively balanced. I still fear it doesn't do justice to massed combat.

[Fax Celestis]

You must read Heroes of Battle. Armies are nowhere near irrelevant.

[Indon]

That's all well and good if you assume that your enemies' army consists entirely of a handful of PC-class NPC's and legions of level 1 soldiers. And a smaller levy army might honestly look like that.

But a professional army is going to have higher-level soldiers and warriors; By this point you get a more reasonable army in which the average grunt is a level 1 warrior, sergeants are level 2, officers level 3-5, and there are probably 1 level 1-4 wizard and 1 level 1-4 cleric per 10 or 15 soldiers.

So there's a level 5 PC cleaving through the ranks? The soldiers give away to some captain, who alone is probably a match for a single PC.

Now, by the time you get to level 10-15 PC characters, you're talking about the kinds of characters who _lead_ armies, not are in them.

[Saithis Bladewing]

High level characters are not necessarily all that commonplace and both sides are likely to have them. Also, PCs and important NPCs aren't the only people who are going to be gaining class levels. That said, also read Heroes of Battle as Fax suggested.

[Maxymiuk]

Complete Warrior touches upon that exact problem, and proposes a solution where PC characters are specialists within the army, used as covert ops and behind-enemy-lines strike teams, rather than being "spent" on an actual battlefield.

Of course this is a "quick fix" patch on a bigger problem, which is that D&D wasn't really meant as a system for large-scale warfare in the first place. Adventurers are expected to face no more than a dozen or so opponents at once. since past that point the CR system pretty much goes out the window.

In my opinion, a high level PC should end up on the battlefield only for the climatic showdown against his foe. The GM could make the whole experience cinematic, describing how the character wades through the battle, cutting down lesser soldiers standing in his way until he spots his counterpart, roars a challenge, and clashes. Final battles in movies such as Braveheart or King Arthur are good examples of what I have in mind.

[Inigo_Carmine]

Well, you've either got 2 ends of the spectrum:

1) Forgotten Realms style, where your average person is lv 10+. You can't go out for a mug of ale without tripping over some epic level homeless guy and his shopping cart full of epic artifact trash, not to mention his own personal deity. You roll your eyes every year when your parents get you another Holy Avenger in some lame attempt to convince you to be a Paladin.

This 10th level PC you speak of is a wimp who'd get his ass handed to him by your average back-country elf-subrace yokel and his summoned horde of Balors.

The world is regularly saved from absolute destruction 5 or 6 times a day before noon, and armies are generally made up of lv 30+ people.

2) People higher than lv 1 or 2 are actually rare and special. Armies are still relevant because 99.999% of the people in the world are NOT 10th level army destroyers.

=====

However you have it, the power of an army will increase as high level characters become more common (because it will contain people of higher level), making the army more powerful.

[Dhavaer]

I assumed that D&D armies are mostly high level special forces, with the mooks backing them up for occupying cities and so on, where numbers are less important than bad-assness.

[ken-do-nim]

Every now and then I daydream about how my 17th level sorcerer would do in the Lord of the Rings world against the forces of Mordor. I think his most potent strategy is to summon air elementals who then form whirlwinds and mop up the orcs. Also summoned bralanis can also help out with their lightning bolts and whirlwind blasts, while summoned avorals can magic missile every round.

He's got empowered wall of fires for the nazgul (double damage vs. undead) and he himself will remain invisible, blinking, projecting his image, etc. while blasting fireballs and spreading around glitterdust.

Against the big trolls and oliphants he can pull out rays of enfeeblement and enervations to weaken them and he can help damage them with scorching rays if his summons can't.

[Dhavaer]

I think Whirlwind of Teeth, from the BoVD, is the best anti-army spell. Very large area, mobile, lasts 1 round/level, does 1/2CLd8 damage.

[TheOOB]

It's fair to assume that if your side has some high level characters, the enemy side does as well. Chances are, rather then whole sale slaughtering enemy troops, you'll be taking on the enemy PCs so they don't do the same thing to your forces.

Also, never underestimate the the value of natural 20's and aid anothers in large groups. A group of 100 archers is guarenteed at least five hits a round agienst a PC, reguardless of AC. 5d8 damage a round may not seem like much, but it adds up over time.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And then the opponent general says 'Remove That Man!", points at you, and 500 archers all target you simultaniously... The one-in-fifty 1st level wizards/sorcerers are busy casting Magic Weapon on as many arrows as possible for the volleys.

[Saithis Bladewing]

Also, never underestimate the the value of natural 20's and aid anothers in large groups. A group of 100 archers is guarenteed at least five hits a round agienst a PC, reguardless of AC. 5d8 damage a round may not seem like much, but it adds up over time.

Guaranteed is a bad word to use. 'Highly likely' is a much more appropriate term, methinks. Nothing is guaranteed. It is technically possible to get 100 hits with 100 shots, just as it is technically possible to get no shots. The former is highly unlikely, the latter is unlikely but probably more likely than the former is.

[dorshe1]

I actually enjoy mass combat campaigns, and I can assure you that 1,000 well led kobolds can kill a level 15 party (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard) because I've done it myself.

A small party of higher level people will inevitably be swarmed by thousands of lower level fighters. Using AID and flanking/grappling will inevitably lead to their downfall.

Also, a small party would be poor for doing things like DEFENDING and area. Can you imagine 5 people holding off thousands from getting into a city? The city would be sacked even if they have many losses.

Don't forget that adventurers will eventually run out of spells, more than likely before the enemy runs out of troops, barbarians can only rage once per encounter and then be exhausted for the rest of the day, fighters will eventually need to make con checks to stay awake, etc....etc....

[NinjaClarinet]

It's fair to assume that if your side has some high level characters, the enemy side does as well. Chances are, rather then whole sale slaughtering enemy troops, you'll be taking on the enemy PCs so they don't do the same thing to your forces.

Also, never underestimate the the value of natural 20's and aid anothers in large groups. A group of 100 archers is guarenteed at least five hits a round agienst a PC, reguardless of AC. 5d8 damage a round may not seem like much, but it adds up over time.

This generally sums it up IMO. Also, when I'm DMing, I usually apply AC penalties when a character has more than 2 people targeting him/her

[Behold_the_Void]

Heroes of Battle.

That's about all I can add to this.

[Stormcrow]

Its an amusing concept, gone are the days of huge armies on either sides of a field at great expense.

Now;

Six guys on each side of a field looking at each other their "supply train" is one wagon per group and they have very little problems with attrition. This is the "army of the future." :P

Adviser: Where are your armies?
King: We don't need an army, i hired adventurers?
Adviser: How many m'lord?
King: 6!
Adviser: Oh happy day, victory is assured sire.

[Lord Iames Osari]

@^: lol. That is all.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Its an amusing concept, gone are the days of huge armies on either sides of a field at great expense.

Now;

Six guys on each side of a field looking at each other their "supply train" is one wagon per group and they have very little problems with attrition. This is the "army of the future." :P

Adviser: Where are your armies?
King: We don't need an army, i hired adventurers?
Adviser: How many m'lord?
King: 6!
Adviser: Oh happy day, victory is assured sire.

Congratulations, you've actually described dark age warfare pretty accurately.

[Stormcrow]

Yep.
You've got a team of guys who are good. Probably Swiss Mecenaries. And about three hundred guys who do their darndest to jump infront of arrows for them. Thats the local peasants who got conscripted on pain of death.

[Nightmarenny]

I've never put it in to practice but I have two idea's of how to cop eith large lower level armies.

Count them as squads. Even low level are probably trained specificly that they fight well as a team. give them one attack number and damage..

Fattigue. Make a house rule that as the battle goes on because of the constant fughting that could go on for hours this cause's strain on the characters lowering their dex and wis. Effectivly lowering ac and creating the possiblity of rogues sneaking up to them.

[Stormcrow]

The issue even then comes, using my best friend as an example.

Lukan the fire mage casts maximised fireball seven times blanketing an area 40 feet deep and 280 feet long in 60+ damage.

Low level squads... boned.

[Fax Celestis]

Low level squads should have a dedicated counterspeller with them. Sorceror who sits there and spams dispel magic whenever he sees someone casting a spell.

[Mike_G]

I guess the answere depends on how common high level PCs are.

Tactics will change in response to new threats. The same way that repeating rifles, accurate artillery and machine guns changed infantry tactics from massed, close order manuever to dispersed small unit tactics, so will Fireballs.

If PC's, especially spellcasters, are common in armies, the other side will either develop countermeasures, like cheap, mass produced amulets of resistance, or will change tactics, spreading out the squads like in modern warfare so that a Fireball will only take out a few soldiers. It's not worth wasting a thrid level spell to drop three or four 1st level warriors out of an army of thousands.

The only problem with that is that warfare no longer looks medieval, but more like Saving Private Aragorn.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Low level squads should have a dedicated counterspeller with them. Sorceror who sits there and spams dispel magic whenever he sees someone casting a spell.

Umm... depends on what you call a 'squad'...

That's a 6th level caster there to babysit how many conscripts? Are there better things for him to do? Like maybe Slow down the front line of the opponent's forces, toss a Stinking Cloud in front of them, or be back with the archers to cast Flame Arrows on 50 arrows per volley so the arrows do an extra 1d6 fire? (that's an extra 50d6 there... talk about a damage boost...)

[Jothki]

I don't get why it is assumed that armies would consist largely of level 1 warriors. Basic training should be enough to gain one or more levels, certainly more so than roaming around beating up on a bunch of creatures that are either unintelligent or one fourth your size.

[Stormcrow]

Experience is based on danger as i recall. So training would give your far less but sustained over time. Your in no real danger of dying during training if the trainer is sane. So the experience would be really slow.

[Dausuul]

Yep.
You've got a team of guys who are good. Probably Swiss Mecenaries. And about three hundred guys who do their darndest to jump infront of arrows for them. Thats the local peasants who got conscripted on pain of death.

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, a knight in full plate, with lance and sword, on a horse, both knight and horse well-fed and trained from childhood for battle, can take on rather a number of half-starved peasants with sticks. Not to the extremes you see in D&D, of course, but still, it's significant.

[Logos7]

regardless of how kewl the PC's are they still only get so many actions a turn, They are limited by the fact that they are single men as apposed to groups of men.

[clarkvalentine]

The version of d20 I play (Game of Thrones d20) reduces your defense rating (AC, essentially) by one for each attack made against you per round. So even people with ungodly high defenses can get swarmed, and start taking hits.

[Raum]

Experience is based on danger as i recall.

Err, no...experience is based on overcoming challenges (DMG pg 36-37). It's why you can get experience for using diplomacy to convince an opponent to let you accomplish your goal. Or even for using stealth to sneak past guards.